Same sex attractions and Homosexuality

[SilverBear]

I tend to agree. It’s a complex issue. I think we have to acknowledge the influence of prenatal causes that effect physical development though as a significant factor. We know from studies that very young children can display opposite sex behaviour well before any conditioning or psychological factors are at play.

what studies?

We also know that during puberty there are major physical and neurological changes in the body with immense sexual feelings usually towards the opposite sex. So we know that sexual attraction has a biological and neurological basis and that development can be diverted due to changes in the powerful chemicals that program these sexual feelings.

how do we know sexual attraction can be "diverted"?

I think the psychological and conditioning factors come in on top of the biological and neurological states which can cause this state to be supressed, or expressed in different ways later in life.

evidence?

But I think this is a sort of distortion of the underlying biological and neurological basis which can be changed or repaired with therapy.

Evidence?

Sometimes or maybe often its a combination of both changes in the underlying physical state and psychological causes.

evidence for "psychological causes"?

So what comes first, it’s sort of the chicken and the egg, nurture and nature problem that we still have to sort out? That’s why it’s complicated and that is why we should not assume causes and attribute single causes like its only a moral issue. That doesnt help when someone feels a certain way due to how they were programmed and cannot help it.

programmed by who?

Yes there is great power in trusting God to overcome sin and the conditioning that caused a person’s life to be destroyed. They can be transformed into a new person spiritually.

if you are gay your lief is "destroyed"?

But I am not sure that a person can be changed biologically/physically (not discounting that miracles can happen). If there is a physical/neurological basis for some then they are programmed that way. It would be like asking a heterosexual to dismiss their feelings. Therefore the person can only become more moral and follow Gods laws regardless of sexuality.

It’s a bit like an addict. Some addicts are born addicts physically/neurologically due to their mother being an addict. Some may develop an addictive personality due to upbringing. They can be saved but their underlying neurological and physical basis for being an addict doesn’t go away. They are addicts for life. They learn to live a day at a time replacing the drug with God.

the idea that being who you are is some sort of disease or addiction is itself horribly demented and is itself sick. Untold levels of pain and damage are done to people, usually children, who are told they are diseased and programmed wrong and need to conform or else.

 

[dms1972]

But I am not sure that a person can be changed biologically/physically (not discounting that miracles can happen). If there is a physical/neurological basis for some then they are programmed that way. It would be like asking a heterosexual to dismiss their feelings. Therefore the person can only become more moral and follow Gods laws regardless of sexuality.

What makes you think some of our neurological pathways never change? Learning results in changes in the brain, so does socialisation and most importantly faith and repentance IMO. The human brain has layers, so I don't know if it can be changed completely.

The differences in male and female brains is mainly in regard to

Homosexuality in my opinion develops as a response to an emotional disturbance that occured at some point in life, its a 'solution' some people use to cope. In societies were homosexuality is illegal or less socially acceptable however they tend to find different more creative solutions that involve sublimation.

I really don't think secular psychotherapy can effect a cure if someone has been long involved in a homosexual lifestyle. I think the whole idea of "cure" is a bit muddled however.

At best psychotherapy tries to help by encouraging better, more creative ways of coping with life and and its vicissitudes, and providing some support while a person is finding those.

The Christian Faith introduces new resources and new community for a believer that a secular psychotherapist doesn't have at his disposal, and therefore offers a new identity as part of the Body of Christ.

 

[dms1972]

It’s a bit like an addict. Some addicts are born addicts physically/neurologically due to their mother being an addict.

All this seems like an attempt to downplay personal responsibility and reduce it all to a pre-natal environment? Addictions don't just happen, even in children of addicts, and if a child has been exposed to some substance in the womb, its not clear how chemically dependent that makes them, there are risks yes, and there can sometimes be withdrawal symptoms for the baby, but these are treated medically. There may be other difficulties and parents addicted to drugs may struggle with always providing an adequate nurturing environment for their child growing up. But not all children of alcoholics become chronic abusers of alcohol. Perhaps for some there is something in their makeup which means once they start drinking it becomes harder to stop. However it isn't the case with everyone. There are other factors involved.

 

[stevevw]

what studies?

There are many studies/research showing that prenatal causes influence opposite sex feelings/behaviour including same sex attraction.

There is thus substantial evidence suggesting that sexual orientation, and homosexuality in particular, is influenced before birth by a set of biological mechanisms. These mechanisms include genes that affect sexual orientation by currently unidentified mechanisms and hormonal actions classically mediating sexual differentiation.
Minireview: Hormones and Human Sexual Orientation

Many people believe that sexual orientation (homosexuality vs. heterosexuality) is determined by education and social constraints. There are, however, a large number of studies indicating that prenatal factors have an important influence on this critical feature of human sexuality.
Multiple epidemiological studies have demonstrated a correlation between concordance of sexual orientation and genetic relatedness.
Twins studies indicate that this correspondence in sexual orientation probably does not reflect a communality of postnatal experiences (psychosocial factors) but rather genetic similarity.
Minireview: Hormones and Human Sexual Orientation

According to the hypothesis, homosexuality may be a carry-over from one's parents' own prenatal resistance to the hormones of the opposite sex. The "epi-marks" that adjusted parental genes to resist excess testosterone, for example, may alter gene activation in areas of the child's brain involved in sexual attraction and preference.
AAAS

how do we know sexual attraction can be "diverted"?

If you read the above links you will find out. If there is a certain developmental pathway that produces heterosexual orientation then its possible for a male or female to end up with the opposite sex hormones through changes in that development process. All brains are female at a certain stage of feotal development as far as sex hormones acting on brains are concerned.

Its a matter of testosterone levels. The male brain then recieves the sex steroids that make it male. So if there are changes to this where too little or too much sex hormone is recieved then this is going to have some influence on how that perosn feels and expresses their sexuality. Its not as black and white as this but certainly for some this is the case as the science as found.

Exposure to a high concentration of testosterone during a critical phase of development would lead to a male-typical orientation (attraction to women), whereas a lower embryonic exposure to steroids would lead to a female-typical orientation (attraction to men).

On average, male embryos are exposed to higher concentrations of testosterone than female embryos, but these concentrations vary around a mean value for various reasons (environmental, genetic, etc.). Male subjects at the lower end of this sex-specific distribution could thus acquire a female-typical orientation (and be gay), whereas females at the high end of the concentration curve would acquire a male-typical sexual attraction and be lesbian.
Minireview: Hormones and Human Sexual Orientation

evidence?

Even before birth, the timing and extent of exposure to androgen, a male hormone, affects brain development and gender expression later in life. Culture and socialization also shape gendered behavior, but hormones can facilitate or dampen these influences. In other words, you can encourage masculine or feminine behavior in children, but hormone exposure before birth determines whether they embrace or reject these influences.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/...der-women-just-reinforcing-sexist-stereotypes

Evidence?

as above

evidence for "psychological causes"?

I was referring to the effects of parental upbringing and how this can influence a child and later sexual orientation. I think this has been established in the links I posted above on biological causes which also mention the role of psychological influences.

Epidemiological studies find a positive association between physical and sexual abuse, neglect, and witnessing violence in childhood and same-sex sexuality in adulthood. Nascent same-sex orientation may increase risk of maltreatment; alternatively, maltreatment may shape sexual orientation.
Does Maltreatment in Childhood Affect Sexual Orientation in Adulthood?

programmed by who?

As shown above with the evidence sexual orientation being programmed by sex steroids and genetics to some extent.

if you are gay your lief is "destroyed"?

I never said that. This is something your reading into what I said.

the idea that being who you are is some sort of disease or addiction is itself horribly demented and is itself sick. Untold levels of pain and damage are done to people, usually children, who are told they are diseased and programmed wrong and need to conform or else.

That is what you are also reading into things. What I have posted is science. Science is not about determining who people are. Its just a way of determining medical facts.

I think its an important way of helping people understand what issues they face and in this sense it takes the morality and personal opinions out of things. Just like we don't think anyone with any other medical condition at birth that may change development is diseased why should that be the case with changes in sex hormones and development.

 

[stevevw]

All this seems like an attempt to downplay personal responsibility and reduce it all to a pre-natal environment? Addictions don't just happen, even in children of addicts, and if a child has been exposed to some substance in the womb, its not clear how chemically dependent that makes them, there are risks yes, and there can sometimes be withdrawal symptoms for the baby, but these are treated medically. There may be other difficulties and parents addicted to drugs may struggle with always providing an adequate nurturing environment for their child growing up. But not all children of alcoholics become chronic abusers of alcohol. Perhaps for some there is something in their makeup which means once they start drinking it becomes harder to stop. However it isn't the case with everyone. There are other factors involved.

I agree but we have to consider that for some there are prenatal influences that determine their makeup to some degree. Its not an excuse that gives them a ticket to behave irresponsibly. I am merely mentioning this to highlight that not everyone begins from the same level of physical, mental and psychological ability and therefore we should not take a one size fits all approach to how they can meet societies or religious expectations of where they should be at.

They may need more help, understanding.

 

[dms1972]

I agree but we have to consider that for some there are prenatal influences that determine their makeup to some degree. Its not an excuse that gives them a ticket to behave irresponsibly. I am merely mentioning this to highlight that not everyone begins from the same level of physical, mental and psychological ability and therefore we should not take a one size fits all approach to how they can meet societies or religious expectations of where they should be at.

They may need more help, understanding.

Thats fine, and that's what I was saying - God knows what our basic makeup is and whether we have suffered trauma - is he not able to give us help equal to and greater than our weaknesses?

There is a danger of painting oneself into corner, of defining one's humanity solely in sexual terms, of people defining themselves solely in terms of what they imagine to be their sexual preference, and during a stage of growing up when there are a lot of changes going on, these feeling may not have permanency.

It's not helpful to have a monocular view of the origins of homosexuality as either biological or only psychological.

I don't think the churches should require or expect hetrosexuality of all its members, only abstinance or celibacy in those who struggle with opposite sex relationships. I just don't think hetrosexuality automatically equates to maturity.

I think a big issue which has been already mentioned is loneliness and better opportunity for genuine fellowship would alleviate that.

 

[stevevw]

Thats fine, and that's what I was saying - God knows what our basic makeup is and whether we have suffered trauma - is he not able to give us help equal to and greater than our weaknesses?

Yes and sometimes people who experience great setbacks like addiction have greater reason and inspiration to change once they accept they need help. In some ways a blessing in disguise.

There is a danger of painting oneself into corner, of defining one's humanity solely in sexual terms, of people defining themselves solely in terms of what they imagine to be their sexual preference, and during a stage of growing up when there are a lot of changes going on, these feeling may not have permanency.

It's not helpful to have a monocular view of the origins of homosexuality as either biological or only psychological.

True but if for some there is a biological basis that causes say a male to feel and think like a female then that is hard to pretend it is not there r influences them.

I don't think the churches should require or expect hetrosexuality of all its members, only abstinance or celibacy in those who struggle with opposite sex relationships. I just don't think hetrosexuality automatically equates to maturity.

It is a complicated issue because while that should be expected of all regardless of sexuality its when people do pair up in marriage that things change. If someone genuinely has feelings for the same sex should they be denied marriage for example. I think this is one of the most difficult issues facing the church.

I think a big issue which has been already mentioned is loneliness and better opportunity for genuine fellowship would alleviate that.

Yes I agree. For many nowadays they are not finding life partners and therefore fellowship becomes all important to fill that void apart from of course a relationship with God.

As Paul mentions he wished that everyone could be like him (remain celibate) and being able to dedicate full time to doing Gods work. He regarded that a greater situation than to be married so there must have been some greater glory. So you are right in that we can place too much emphasis on another person fulfilling our needs as the answer to finding happiness.

 

[dms1972]

Yes and sometimes people who experience great setbacks like addiction have greater reason and inspiration to change once they accept they need help. In some ways a blessing in disguise.

Yes thats all fine, however we are now miles off the topic of the thread. Teens who have experienced same-sex sexual attractions are not sex-addicts. Not even all adults who identify as homosexual are sex addicts. So the association with addiction is not valid. Men and women whose primary romantic interests are hetro-sexual may or may not be addicted to sex and the same is the case for homosexuals. So you cannot automatically link the two. Some men and women pursue a life of celibacy. Yes it is possible to become addicted to something that acts to relieve emptiness, loneliness etc. but one doesn't become addicted automatically normally. There is a progression from occasional practice, to a habit, to addiction. But this thread is about non-addicted people, about people who only have had feelings but not acted on them. They should not define themselves according to occasional sexual feelings. Acting on them results in what some behavioural psychologists term "stamping in", which may lead to thinking they were always homosexual which is not necessarily true.

 

[dms1972]

True but if for some there is a biological basis that causes say a male to feel and think like a female then that is hard to pretend it is not there or influences them.

What you seem to be talking about is either gender dysphoria or transgenderism, neither of which are homosexuality - homo in homosexuality means same. It is hard to carry on a discussion if we don't use the terms the same way.

 

[stevevw]

Yes thats all fine, however we are now miles off the topic of the thread.

Not really. You have made a couple of claims about what homosexuality is and is not which then make the status ambigious regarding how Christians should approach the issue. So determining what homosexuality is and is not is important. You have alluded to the moral aspect and so if homosexuality is partly the result of being born with the wrong sex orientation or at least it having some influence then that is an important factor.

Teens who have experienced same-sex sexual attractions are not sex-addicts. Not even all adults who identify as homosexual are sex addicts. So the association with addiction is not valid. Men and women whose primary romantic interests are hetro-sexual may or may not be addicted to sex and the same is the case for homosexuals. So you cannot automatically link the two. Some men and women pursue a life of celibacy. Yes it is possible to become addicted to something that acts to relieve emptiness, loneliness etc. but one doesn't become addicted automatically normally. There is a progression from occasional practice, to a habit, to addiction.

I wasnt using drug addiction to say that those with same sex atractions (SSA) are sex addicts. I used addiction because it also have some underlying genetic and brain chemical causes and some upbringing influences that make some people more prone to have addictive personalities.

So when applied to SSA there may be some who are born with brain chemical changes and have certain upbringings that make them more prone to SSA. But as mentioned being born a certain way doesnt excuse responsibility. It may make it harder but as you have said God will always give strength to those who trust in him no matter what the circumstances.

But this thread is about non-addicted people, about people who only have had feelings but not acted on them. They should not define themselves according to occasional sexual feelings. Acting on them results in what some behavioural psychologists term "stamping in", which may lead to thinking they were always homosexual which is not necessarily true.

Yes so therefore it’s important to define what is and isn’t homosexuality. As far as I understand things its during puberty that adolescents can be confused about sex and can have feelings about the same sex. That’s because it’s a time of intense sexual feelings and establishing sexuality. Sometimes those feelings may continue into early adulthood and sometimes especially for women they can become emotionally involved which may include sexual experiences with the same sex.

Then there may be some who experiment and this may be more about lust. There may be cross overs between emotion and sexual attraction where some are not necessarily gay. Then there may be cultural and social factors where some societies are more feminine which could influence males into having sexual experiences more often with men without necessarily being gay. Its complicated and I don't think anyone has been able to sort it all out.

But as far as being Christain and following Gods laws none of this is an excuse for saying that this behaviour is OK. I think theres a saying that says we inherit our fathers sins. In some ways all this sexual and gender confusion and blurring the lines of sexuality is the result of years of evolution of changing sex roles, identities, pleasure persuits, as well as biological factors like epigenetics and prenatal changes being caused by lifestyle, stresses, medications and pollutants.

 

[stevevw]

What you seem to be talking about is either gender dysphoria or transgenderism, neither of which are homosexuality - homo in homosexuality mean same. It is hard to carry on a discussion if we don't use the terms the same way.

The links I posted were about sexual orientation changes associated with hormones and genetics. The thing is a lot of reseach now is establishing that the same sex hormones that cause sexual orientation also are related to sexual/gender identity. This has been supported by the fact that a lot of young people with gender dyphoria who felt trans later realized they were actually gay.

It is understandable because it is the imbalance of sex hormones related to sexual orientation which has bene found to make the brain develop more like the opposite sex and which will include their sexual feelings. Thus there is a lot of cross over between sexual orientation and sexual/gender identity.

 

[dms1972]

Not really. You have made a couple of claims about what homosexuality is and is not which then make the status ambigious regarding how Christians should approach the issue.

Which claims precisely have I made (please quote) so I know what you refering to? What do you mean by "make the status ambiguous" and in what way has what I said made it ambiguous?

Do you mean I differentiate occasional same-sex attractions from adult homosexual behaviour? Yes, they are different, the former may never be acted on or eventuate in adult homosexual behaviour or lifestyle, neither do occasional same-sex attractions constitute an identity.

I don't think I made anything "ambiguous" except for those who have a monocular view of the topic - who either see all people who occasionally experience same sex attractions as needing some sort of "conversion therapy" - or who think christians must all be wholly hetrosexual and married, or who think it is all to do with pre-natal factors. If I have made it "ambiguous" or made them uncertain about their neat little one size fits all approach, then good!!! For one needs the wisdom of the Holy Spirit to help people, not merely a biological or psychological theory.

I am not advocating sin either, or sinful ways of alleviating loneliness, the mockery of traditional marriage called gay or same sex marriage. I am saying with some people their feelings of same-sex attraction may be transient especially when they are occuring during a time of change and maturing into adulthood.

 

[SilverBear]

Which claims precisely have I made (please quote) so I know what you refering to? What do you mean by "make the status ambiguous" and in what way has what I said made it ambiguous?

Do you mean I differentiate occasional same-sex attractions from adult homosexual behaviour? Yes, they are different, the former may never be acted on or eventuate in adult homosexual behaviour or lifestyle, neither do occasional same-sex attractions constitute an identity.

you are at best splitting hairs and at worst playing a word game here.
Orientation is an intrinsic part of the self and not a behavior whether one is a virgin or not so people are homosexual and bisexual and heterosexual without ever having had sex with anyone.
By labeling homosexuality as either an attraction or a behavior and something that happens"occasionally" you reduce who people are to an action and dehumanize them in the process.

 

[stevevw]

Which claims precisely have I made (please quote) so I know what you refering to? What do you mean by "make the status ambiguous" and in what way has what I said made it ambiguous?

Do you mean I differentiate occasional same-sex attractions from adult homosexual behaviour? Yes, they are different, the former may never be acted on or eventuate in adult homosexual behaviour or lifestyle, neither do occasional same-sex attractions constitute an identity.

I don't think I made anything "ambiguous" except for those who have a monocular view of the topic - who either see all people who occasionally experience same sex attractions as needing some sort of "conversion therapy" - or who think christians must all be wholly hetrosexual and married, or who think it is all to do with pre-natal factors. If I have made it "ambiguous" or made them uncertain about their neat little one size fits all approach, then good!!! For one needs the wisdom of the Holy Spirit to help people, not merely a biological or psychological theory.

I am not advocating sin either, or sinful ways of alleviating loneliness, the mockery of traditional marriage called gay or same sex marriage. I am saying with some people their feelings of same-sex attraction may be transient especially when they are occuring during a time of change and maturing into adulthood.

Apart from the linked quotes from other authors which I have not commneted on as yet I was only referring to the claims you made which I think were more or less along similar lines to the support links you posted. These included the folowing claims

Same sex attraction does not always constitute or indicate homosexuality, or only constitutes an aspect of it, and there can be same-sex attraction without homosexuality.

Same-sex attractions up to a point are normal, and may involve eros, and philia (friendship) without ever crossing over into homosexuality.

English Psychiatrist Frank Lake said Jesus in his human nature experienced Eros (controlled by his agape love) in his relationships with his disciples without it being tainted by lust, or deified.

I think Christians need to be clear that homosexuality involves a lot more than same sex attraction.

Having same-sex attractions does not make you a gay man, or lesbian women.

Therefore it is reasonable for others to question these claims and clarify homosexuality and the role in plays in society today.

My main dispute in my first post was questioning how you claimed that Christ experienced Eros in his relationships with his disciples to make the case that Eros (sexual feelings towards the same sex) are a normal part of life. Eros is basically erotic and sexual love and as Christ had male disciples it is implying that he had this sexual love for them and it was only negated because of Agape His love.

I disagreed that Christ would have had this type of feeling towards the same sex. If anything as he would have only had Agape love as he loved all people and perhaps Philia as he loved and treated those he associated with as friend and equals.

By implying that homosexual feelings does not mean your homosexual muddies the water a bit as to where that line is drawn. By claiming people have sexual feelings for the same sex but it doesn’t necessarily mean they are homosexual blurs the line as to what is homosexual or not especially because you are alluding to Christ having these feelings.

So therefore I think it’s important that we clarify what is homosexual feelings and what isn’t so that we can understand the difference between having same sex attraction and having deep feelings for the same sex but no sexual.

That’s why I felt it important to give some research on this in how same sex attraction can have a biological basis and/or some psychological influences to show it is not just a fleeting feeling but something innate. Some people may experiment sexually and this is an area that also needs clarification as I don't think its something heterosexual people usually do. So there may be some underlying reasons as well.

 

[dms1972]

Therefore it is reasonable for others to question these claims and clarify homosexuality and the role it plays in society today.

What role does it play in your opinion?

I think I am entitled to articulate a more traditional view on the matter, and to equally question some contemporary views and opinions on the topic.

I differentiate feelings and behaviours, for it is possible to not act on one's feelings. I also differentiate these from character and from identity, for not everyone who has experienced occasional same-sex sexual attractions identifies as 'gay' or as homosexual.

You are speaking of the need for greater understanding, or sympathy with what people struggle with, and I agree - and for that reason I would say we should not regard christians who still feel occasional same-sex attractions as second class christians - the main thing is that self-control (a fruit of the Spirit) is practiced, and inner renewal is slowly taking place.

"Sow a thought and you reap an action, sow an action and you reap a habit, sow a habit and you reap a character, sow a character and you reap a destiny" (Ralph Waldo Emerson)

This is very appropriate to the topic under discussion, thoughts - actions - habits - character - destiny.

I am suggesting as Emerson points out that care should be taken with our thoughts and feelings, and that rushing to interpret same sex feelings during adolescence as meaning this or that about oneself, is not a good idea. People should be slow to conclude that they have a homosexual 'orientation', because there are other motivations, and fears involved at times, some of which will change for some people as they experience more of life and relationships.

The New Testament says a believer should "take every thought captive and make it obedient to Christ."

How do I take every thought captive? 2 Corinthians 10:5 commentary (activechristianity.org)

 

[SkyWriting]

There are two sexes...male and female (and the inter-sexed of course) There are cultural behaviors that are labeled masculine and feminine and these vary widely based on culture and time period. There is also tremendous overlap as to just what is masculine and what is feminine.

Recall that the first president of the United States wore heels, silk stockings and a wig.

I think Wig was the party.

 

[SkyWriting]

Its also about training. If one watches gay inappropriate content (or hetrosexual inappropriate content for that matter) or entertains sexual fantasies then when one finds oneself in testing situation one will be in a weakened state to cope with the test. We need to prepare in advance, not just when the temptation comes upon us. The same is true in many other respects.

People exposed to behavior though video have an increased aversion to it if they came in that way. It turns out that considering what one has watched earlier leads to improved ability to discern proper behavior when experienced live.

 

[dms1972]

People exposed to behavior though video have an increased aversion to it if they came in that way. It turns out that considering what one has watched earlier leads to improved ability to discern proper behavior when experienced live.

I think aversion may be more complex than you are suggesting, can you point to some info to support what you are saying?

There can be a voyeuristic element. So we cannot talk about sex-addiction as if viewing inappropriate content, engaging in casual sex, or making demands on a partner are all quite the same, or involve the same dynamics, or that the dynamics in homosexual sex and hetrosexual sex are the same.

Do you think inappropriate contentographic material when viewed tends leaves one in a stupor, in a sexual 'twilight zone', even though one might not copy the behavior? I think it may leave one in a more vulnerable and less assertive state of mind.

If one habitually masturbates to [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] during or following viewing inappropriate content, I think there is more likelihood of it becoming compulsive. Of course not everyone who has looked at inappropriate content is addicted to inappropriate content. PMO (inappropriate content - masturbation - [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]) seems to be the more problematic combination - I am not sure at what point and to what extent images viewed are burnt into ones mind?

Any further thoughts on it, research you can link to?

 

[SilverBear]

I think Wig was the party.

That would be the whig party but it was not formed until the 1830's. George Washington was a federalist

 

[SkyWriting]

That would be the whig party but it was not formed until the 1830's. George Washington was a federalist

Blame England for the wig, not Login • Instagram