Same Ol' Same Ol'?

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Bible2

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BABerean2 said in post 91:

All Christians are Abraham's Seed, adopted through faith in the One Seed.

That's right.

All those in the church, whether Jews or Gentiles, are spiritually Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29). Also, Abraham's seed is Israel (Isaiah 41:8, Romans 11:1; 2 Chronicles 20:7). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). Not just the Jews in the church (e.g. Romans 11:1b), but also the Gentiles in the church, are spiritually Abraham's seed of promise (Romans 9:7,8,24), as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28), and as Jesus is (Galatians 3:16,29). And so Gentiles in the church, along with Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 15:27, Galatians 3:29b, Romans 11:17,24).
 
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ThatTrueLight

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So the entire church is Israel

Bible2, based on this statement; do you ever explain how that Christians can become wise in their own conceits for being ignorant of Israel being blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and how that they're enemies as concerning the gospel and yet beloved in God's election..

You seem to go to great lengths in explaining everything else, although I don't recall you explaining that part.

Could you?

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.​
 
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Bible2

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ThatTrueLight said in post 102:

. . . do you ever explain how that Christians can become wise in their own conceits for being ignorant of Israel being blinded in part until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, and how that they're enemies as concerning the gospel and yet beloved in God's election..

Yes. (As in post 70 above, and in the 2nd section of post 22 above)

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25).

In Romans 11:25, the Gentiles are genetic Gentiles, the people addressed throughout Romans 11:13-31, who aren't genetic Jews like Paul the apostle (Romans 11:1,14). Both individual genetic Jewish believers (natural branches) and individual genetic Gentile believers (engrafted wild branches) are branches in the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24). For when Gentiles become believers they "come in" (Romans 11:25) to be part of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). The fruit of each individual branch would be the good works of each individual (Colossians 1:10). It is the genetic Jews who are "blind in part", meaning that some (in the sense of not all) of them are spiritually blind while others aren't (Romans 11:7-10). For "blindness in part is happened to Israel" (Romans 11:25) in its genetic sense (Romans 11:1,14), that is, genetic Jews (Acts 22:3). Also, in Romans 11:25-26, "Israel" includes elect genetic Jews who aren't yet believers (Romans 11:28), but who will become believers eventually (Romans 11:26).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25), he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-30), just as Luke 21:24 shows that "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18), during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30), all the still-living, unsaved, elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church. For now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it is by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).
 
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BABerean2

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Jesus celebrated the rededication of the temple after the first Abomination of Desolation in 167 BC by Antiochus Epiphanes.

Antiochus fulfilled Daniel 11:31 when he set up a statue of Zeus in the temple(He had previously claimed that he was a reincarnation of Zeus.) and had a pig slaughtered in the altar. It is also estimated that around 40,000 Jews were killed and another 40,000 were taken as slaves by the army of Antiochus.
In Matthew 24:15, Jesus was warning His disciples that it would happen again.

Even a child has access to this information.





The link below is to a children's page about Hanukkah.
Annie's Hanukkah Page


The verse below is a reference to the Hanukkah celebration during the time of Christ. His reference to the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse was predicting the second time it would occur in 70 AD.
Some of us are looking for the third occurrence, because we refuse to acknowledge the first or second time it happened, which are both in the past.




Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.


Some will ignore the historical record and then throw out the word "preterist" to cover their ignorance.
 
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Danoh

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Jesus celebrated the rededication of the temple after the first Abomination of Desolation in 167 BC by Antiochus Epiphanes.

Antiochus fulfilled Daniel 11:31 when he set up a statue of Zeus in the temple(He had previously claimed that he was a reincarnation of Zeus.) and had a pig slaughtered in the altar. It is also estimated that around 40,000 Jews were killed and another 40,000 were taken as slaves by the army of Antiochus.
In Matthew 24:15, Jesus was warning His disciples that it would happen again.

Even a child has access to this information.





The link below is to a children's page about Hanukkah.
Annie's Hanukkah Page


The verse below is a reference to the Hanukkah celebration during the time of Christ. His reference to the Abomination of Desolation in the Olivet Discourse was predicting the second time it would occur in 70 AD.
Some of us are looking for the third occurrence, because we refuse to acknowledge the first or second time it happened, which are both in the past.




Joh 10:22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter.


Some will ignore the historical record and then throw out the word "preterist" to cover their ignorance.

Only willful ignorance will continue to ignore the clear fact throughout Acts to Philemon that with the interruption of Israel's Prophesied destiny, Jews lost whatever edge in underdstanding they had about things, and such will remain the case until this Mystery age is over.

Go go ahead, show how entrenched you are in your enchantment with "a Jew" just because "he is a Jew," even as in the next breath you assert your "belief" in this age's "no difference."

How DO you face yourself in the mirror each morning?
 
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Bible2

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BABerean2 said in post 105:

Read a Jewish History book to see the Abomination of Desolation...

Regarding the "abomination of desolation", Daniel 11:31 was typically fulfilled by the abomination of desolation in 1 Maccabees 1:54, which occurred in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 2nd Jewish temple in Jerusalem in the time of Antiochus IV. But per Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:15, the church will see the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11:31 fulfilled (antitypically) in the future, when the church will see the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place (of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem). This future abomination of desolation could be a standing, android image of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:15) which his followers ("they") will put in the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31) to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15), after they have stopped the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of the temple (Daniel 11:31). This image will pollute the holy place of the temple (Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist will then fulfill Daniel 11:36 and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 by sitting himself (at least one time) in the temple and proclaiming himself God. By the power of Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") will then rule and be worshipped by all the nations of the earth for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18), and will physically overcome Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, from the day on which (antitypically) "the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1,290 days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the 1,335 days" (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). Also, because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").
 
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n2thelight

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Historically, there has been two main theories regarding the Church's relationship to Israel. In replacement theology, the Church replaces Israel such that Israel has no redemptive future. In separation theology (an aspect of dispensationalism), while God has a future for Israel, there is a distinction between Israel and the Church that is preserved throughout all time, with no overlap of the two.
Is it possible that both of these popular positions have been wrong? Is there a middle ground of truth?


Proper and Improper Distinctions
In discussing the Church and Israel, the first thing to realize is that the Bible rarely makes a parallel distinction between national Israel and the Church (possible exceptions being Matthew 23:39 and Romans 11:26). Biblically, Israel is a nation, not a spiritual entity. As a nation of people (like any other nation of people), it contains both saved and unsaved. When the Bible speaks of Israel as a spiritual entity (the saved of Israel), it is referring to remnant Israel (which forces us to ask, "Is there a distinction between remnant Israel and the Church?"--a question we will address shortly).
Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God--even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved. (1 Corinthians 10:32-33; italics added)​
This passage is often used to justify a parallel distinction between Israel and the Church, but that is not what the passage is doing or saying. The immediate context shows that "Jews" refers to unsaved Jews, "Greeks" to unsaved Greeks, and the "church of God" to the saved (whether Jew or Greek). Therefore, the passage is consistent with the rest of the Bible in that it makes a parallel distinction between (1) Jew and Gentile, and between (2) the saved and the unsaved. Also consistent with the rest of Scripture, it does not make a parallel distinction between national Israel and the Church--which would be a category error.

Why then do people want to replace national Israel with the Church or separate Israel and the Church? The problem is threefold. First, people usually equate "Church" with Gentiles, even though both Jews and Gentiles make up the Church (Ephesians 3:6). The second problem is that people often equate "Israel" with Jews. That, too, is against the Scriptures. Gentile believers become citizens of Israel (Ephesians 2:12, 19). The third problem is that people usually do not bother to make the necessary distinction between national Israel and remnant Israel, even though the Bible clearly makes that distinction (Romans 9:6-8, 11:1-7).

The situation is not as black and white as people have made it. There are gray areas that need to be explored and understood. "Church" does not mean Gentiles only. "Israel" does not always mean Jews only. And there is a significant theological difference between national Israel and remnant Israel.


What is the Church?
The Church is the assembly of people, whether Jew or Gentile, who have been called out of the world to form the spiritual Body of Christ (Ephesians 5:23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Corinthians 12:13). Those in the Church come together by the Spirit and through the Messiah. They are said to be "in Christ" (Romans 8:1; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 1:13).
What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory--even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:23-24; italics added)​
The Church is Jews who have been physically called out of the nations, but also spiritually called out from unbelieving Israel, and Gentiles who have been spiritually called out of the nations to worship the God of Israel.

Both spiritually called-out peoples form one called-out people known as the Church. These called-out ones are saved by faith in the pattern of their spiritual father, Abraham (Romans 4:11). Thus, while only some in the Church are physically Jewish, all in the Church are spiritually Jewish. They are circumcised of the heart (Romans 2:29), the offspring of Abraham (Romans 4:16) and citizens of Israel (Ephesians 2:12, 19).


What is Israel?
Israel can mean several things. First, it often denotes national Israel--the nation whose citizens are physical descendants of Jacob/Israel. Second, it can mean those physical descendants of Jacob who have not responded to the call of God (Romans 9:31, 11:7). Third, it can mean those Jews (the remnant) who have trusted in the promises of God.
It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. (Romans 9:6-7; italics added)​
Being a physical descendant of Abraham, while it does bring an advantage (Romans 3:1-2), does not mean one is automatically a spiritual descendant of Abraham (Romans 2:28-29; John 8:39; Matthew 3:9). "Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel." A person can be part of national Israel, and yet not be part of remnant Israel. There is an Israel within Israel, a subset of physical-and-spiritual Jewish people (remnant Israel) among the group of physically Jewish people (national Israel).

When Gentiles become spiritual descendants of Abraham through faith in Jesus Christ, they become part of this subset also, part of remnant Israel. That believing Gentiles are placed within remnant Israel is clearly shown by Paul's illustration of the olive tree.
If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you.


You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree! (Romans 11:16-24; italics added)


The Olive Tree
To understand this complex passage, it will be helpful to analyze its terms.
(1) Holy Firstfruits/Root. While some consider Abraham the holy firstfruits/root that makes the whole batch and the branches holy, it is more likely that Jesus holds this position. In Pauline theology and throughout God's Word, the Messiah is the only person who can make others holy (Isaiah 53:2-6; Romans 5:18-19, 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Ephesians 5:26; Philippians 3:9; esp. Hebrews 2:11, 11:39-40).

Further evidence is found in Romans 9:3-4. "For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, the people of Israel." Paul likens separation from Christ as being "cut off" from Him, language consistent with the olive tree metaphor and Christ as its root.

(2) Wild Olive Shoot. This is a reference to an individual Gentile. A shoot is a young, tender sprout, an undeveloped branch.

(3) Natural Branches. This is a reference to Jewish believers. A Jewish believer is a natural branch, whereas a Gentile believer is a wild olive shoot.

(4) Olive Tree. Non-believing Jews are not part of the olive tree. They have been broken off. Therefore, national Israel must not be in view as the olive tree. But the olive tree must represent some aspect of Israel, because, for Jewish believers, it is their own olive tree.
The olive tree represents remnant Israel. This idea is highly supported by the context of the passage. Previously, Paul has mentioned true Israel (9:6), the remnant of Israel (9:27, 11:5), the elect of Israel (11:7).
 
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n2thelight

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Continued


Remnant Israel = the Church
The olive tree represents remnant Israel, but does it also represent the Church? The olive tree is a group of Jews and Gentiles made holy by the Messiah. That is also an accurate description of the Church (Ephesians 3:6). With the olive tree metaphor, Paul was writing to Gentile believers (Romans 11:13), members of the Church. And yet, the context of the olive tree metaphor was not the Church per se. In Romans, Paul's first use of ekklesia comes in Chapter 16 (vv. 1, 5, 23), where it refers to local assemblies, not the entire body of believers. The context of the olive tree metaphor is remnant Israel (Romans 11:5, 7)--"their [Jewish people's] own olive tree" (11:24).

If Paul had confined his olive tree illustration to include Jewish people only, remnant Israel might have been something separate from the Church, or something placed within the Church. Since Gentile believers are grafted into the olive tree, however, it is clear that remnant Israel is not confined to physical Jews only, but rather, contains the same redeemed peoples who are members of the Church.

Paul's olive tree metaphor is similar to his human body metaphor (Romans 12:4-5; 1 Corinthians 12:12ff). The fact that he uses the two metaphors so close to one another (Romans 11 and 12) shows he is speaking about the same group of people in both. In the body metaphor, the Messiah is the head that gives direction to the rest of the body. Similarly, in the olive tree metaphor, the tree gets its sustenance and origin from the Messiah. In both metaphors, the membership is both Jew and Gentile. For the one: Jewish and Gentile body parts; for the other: Jewish branches and Gentile shoots.

A third metaphor is the spiritual temple spoken of by both Paul and Peter (Ephesians 2:19-22; 1 Peter 2:4-6). Here, the Messiah is the chief cornerstone and the redeemed peoples (Jew and Gentile) are living stones who form a spiritual building. All three metaphors--olive tree, human body, spiritual temple--speak of one and the same group of redeemed Jews and Gentiles. This group can be referred to as the Church, the Assembly, the Congregation, the Body of Messiah, the Body of Christ, God's household--which Gentile believers are no longer alien to (1 Timothy 3:15; Ephesians 2:19), or remnant Israel--which Gentile believers are grafted into (Romans 11:17).


The Church: New and Not New
The Church is new. In the New Covenant Scriptures, the first mention of the Church is found in Matthew 16:18, where Jesus spoke of building His Church. Thus, the Church is a new undertaking, specifically because it is the Messiah's congregation that He would build on the basis of His atoning death and resurrection. Like Moses who brought the ekklesia (the Israelites) out of Egypt physically, the Messiah would bring His ekklesia out of the world spiritually, to form a spiritual assembly that included both Jews and Gentiles.

The Church is also new regarding the New Covenant's promise of the indwelling Spirit (Ezekiel 36:24-26; Jeremiah 31:31-33). The mystery aspect of the Church was that non-Jews would also receive the Spirit and be placed within the same body (with believing Jews) through the Spirit (Acts 10:45, 15:8; Ephesians 2:19-3:6). This was a mystery because the New Covenant and the advent of the Spirit had been promised only for the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Jeremiah 31:31), not for Gentiles. Thus, it was hidden in the Old Testament, sparingly, such as in the covenant given to Abraham, whose seed (Messiah) would be a blessing to all nations.

But the Church is not new. The Church is not new because it is simply remnant Israel. Some people claim that Paul's olive tree is the Church, others claim it is Israel. Seeing it as remnant Israel solves the dilemma. The olive tree is remnant Israel and it is the Church, because the Church is remnant Israel. Further support for this comes from Peter's speech in Acts 3. While speaking to Jewish non-believers, he stated that Jesus was a fulfillment of Mosaic prophecy:
For Moses said, "The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people." (Acts 3:22-23; italics added)


When a Jewish person believed in Jesus and was born of the Spirit, he became a member of the Church, the Body of Christ. However, if a Jewish person did not believe in Jesus, he would be "cut off" (the same language used in Paul's olive tree illustration) from among the Jewish people. This shows that not only Paul, but Peter also, saw the Church as being equivalent to remnant Israel.

The fact that the Church is remnant Israel is evidenced by the name of the eternal home of believers (the New Jerusalem), by the gates of that home (the names of the twelve tribes of Israel), by the pillars of that home (the twelve Israelite apostles of Jesus), and by the Person seated on the throne of that home (Jesus, the King of Israel, Himself an Israelite).
Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul--certainly a member of the Church--could say that since he was a believer in Jesus, he was part of remnant Israel (Romans 11:1-5). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers in Jesus have been grafted into remnant Israel (Romans 11:17). Because the Church is remnant Israel, both Paul and Peter could say that Jews who didn't accept Jesus would be cut off from Israel (Romans 11:17; Acts 3:23). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers are no longer "excluded from citizenship in Israel" and no longer "foreigners to the covenants of the promise" (Ephesians 2:12). Because the Church is remnant Israel, Paul could say that Gentile believers "are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household" (Ephesians 2:19).

These truths would make no sense if the Church were a totally new enterprise, completely separate from or replacing remnant Israel.

Conclusion
For a long time there has been an improper distinction between Israel and the Church. This error has been happened for two reasons: (1) People have rightly noticed the Bible's distinction between Jew and Gentile, but then they erred in thinking that Israel equals Jew and Church equals Gentile. Both Israel and the Church contain both Jews and Gentiles, and the distinction between Jew and Gentile is not equivalent to a distinction between Israel and the Church.

(2) When speaking of the distinction between the Church and Israel, people have failed to make the necessary distinction between national Israel and remnant Israel. Remnant Israel is a spiritual body, national Israel is not.
Gentile believers are grafted into remnant Israel, whose holy root is the Messiah. Gentile believers have taken the place of Jews who have not believed, but Gentiles as a whole have not replaced Jews as a whole. Only part of Israel has been hardened (Romans 11:25). And God is able to graft Jews back into remnant Israel/the Church when they believe (Romans 11:23).

The proper understanding of Israel and the Church is not replacement theology nor separation theology. The Church has not replaced national Israel. National Israel never was a spiritual body of people, but merely a nation of saved and unsaved, like others nations. And God has a future program of prophecy to fulfill for that nation. Neither has the Church replaced remnant Israel. Paul considered himself part of remnant Israel (Romans 11:1-5), part of Christ (Romans 9:3), and part of the Church (Ephesians 5:29-30). This shows that the Church, the Body of Christ and remnant Israel are synonymous. Therefore, the Church is not separate from remnant Israel. The Church is remnant Israel. Through faith in Christ, Gentile believers are no longer excluded from citizenship in Israel, nor from the covenants of the promise (Ephesians 2:12). They have been grafted into the Church, an olive tree natural to Jewish people but unnatural to Gentiles. It is for this reason that Paul exhorts his Gentile readership not to be arrogant about their membership within the Church (Romans 11:20).

Remnant Theology
 
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Bible2

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n2thelight said in post 109:

Historically, there has been two main theories regarding the Church's relationship to Israel. In replacement theology, the Church replaces Israel such that Israel has no redemptive future. In separation theology (an aspect of dispensationalism), while God has a future for Israel, there is a distinction between Israel and the Church that is preserved throughout all time, with no overlap of the two. Is it possible that both of these popular positions have been wrong? Is there a middle ground of truth?

Yes.

For even though the church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10), the church doesn't "replace" Israel, because Gentiles in the church are grafted in to become only parts of an already-existing Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, John 10:16), which also includes the Jews in the church (Romans 11:1).

That is, all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he has been grafted into, and he will receive an answer from God, if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22), without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they are genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews, if they have undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

n2thelight said in post 109:

When the Bible speaks of Israel as a spiritual entity (the saved of Israel), it is referring to remnant Israel . . .

That's right, insofar as while God knows which people alive today are descended from one of the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel from whom the 12 genetic tribes arose (Genesis 49:28), nonelect Israelites/Jews aren't considered by God to be truly Israel (Romans 9:6-11) or truly Jews (Revelation 2:9b, Revelation 3:9), or God's children or Abraham's children, but the children of the devil (John 8:39-47), just as all the nonelect, no matter whether they are Jews or Gentiles, are considered by God to be the children of the devil (Matthew 13:38-39).

Some genetic Israelites are believers, and so are members of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6) and Israel at the same time, just as, for example, the genetic Jew Paul the apostle (Acts 22:3) is a member of the church and Israel at the same time (Romans 11:1). And some still-living, non-believing genetic Israelites are still considered by God to be Israel insofar as they are elect (Romans 11:25,28). All the still-living, elect, non-believing genetic Israelites who don't become believers before Jesus' 2nd coming will become believers (and so will become members of the church: cf. Ephesians 4:4-6) at the 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), when they will see the returned Jesus in person (Zechariah 12:10-14). But even though all those still-living, elect, genetic Israelites will eventually become believers and be saved, they will be only a remnant of all genetic Israelites (Romans 9:27), most of whom will never be saved, just as most of humanity in general, both Jews and Gentiles, will never be saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14).

Also, the 12 tribes of Israel aren't countries or regions (as is sometimes claimed), but consist of individuals who can be living in any country or region. Otherwise, one's tribe would change whenever one moved from one country or region to another. Also, nothing requires that any of the nominally-Christian nations are descended from any of the ancient 12 tribes of Israel, instead of them all simply being Gentile nations. For Christians come from every nation on the earth (Revelation 5:9b), and only a remnant of genetic Israel gets saved (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity as a whole gets saved (Matthew 7:14, Matthew 22:14). Also, the entire church throughout the world is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12).
 
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n2thelight said in post 109:

The third problem is that people usually do not bother to make the necessary distinction between national Israel and remnant Israel, even though the Bible clearly makes that distinction (Romans 9:6-8, 11:1-7).

That's right.

All genetic Jews are part of genetic Israel (Romans 9:3-5). But being part of the true, spiritual Israel, the true, spiritual seed of Abraham, the promised seed, isn't based on genetics (Romans 9:6-24), but on God's election (Romans 9:11), which includes both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24).

All believing Jews and all believing Gentiles are part of the true Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Romans 11:17,24, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10, John 10:16), the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:28-29, Romans 4:16-17), the promised seed, just as Isaac was (Galatians 4:28). And so all Gentiles in the church, along with all Jews in the church, are heirs of all the promises made by God to Israel (Ephesians 3:6, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Romans 15:27).

In Romans 9:8, by "the children of the flesh", Paul means genetic Jews, who are the genetic children of Abraham (Romans 11:1, Acts 13:26, John 8:37). And by "the children of God"/"the children of the promise", Paul means the elect, both some Jews and some Gentiles (Romans 9:24, Galatians 4:28). Romans 9:6-8 means that not all Jews are elect (John 8:37-47, John 10:26), and that some Gentiles are elect (Romans 9:24, John 10:16, John 11:52). Only a remnant of genetic Israel is elect (Romans 9:27), just as only a remnant of humanity in general is elect (chosen) (Matthew 22:14, Matthew 7:14).

n2thelight said in post 109:

That believing Gentiles are placed within remnant Israel is clearly shown by Paul's illustration of the olive tree.

That's right.

In Romans 11:17,24, the metaphor isn't just about people-groups, but is also about individuals within those people-groups. For just as all believers are individual branches in the vine which is Jesus (John 15:5), the only way to salvation (John 14:6, Acts 4:12), so all believers are individual branches in the good olive tree of Israel, the Jews' own tree (Romans 11:17,24, Jeremiah 11:16-17). For all Jewish believers remain part of Israel (Romans 11:1) as the natural branches in the tree of Israel (Romans 11:24). And all Gentile believers have been grafted as branches from a wild olive tree into the tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29), so they can partake of the salvation of the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), which is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). This doesn't mean that a wild branch becomes a natural branch, that a Gentile believer becomes a genetic Jew, but that Gentile believers, even while remaining branches from a wild olive tree, even while remaining genetic Gentiles, are still grafted in to become part of the good olive tree of Israel (Romans 11:17,24).
 
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n2thelight said in post 110:

The Church is new. In the New Covenant Scriptures, the first mention of the Church is found in Matthew 16:18, where Jesus spoke of building His Church.

That's right.

The Old Covenant was the covenant which God made with ancient Israel under Moses (Exodus 24:8, Deuteronomy 5:3), after Israel's Exodus from Egypt (Jeremiah 31:32). The New Covenant is a different, current covenant which God has made with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31) through Jesus Christ, since his first coming, in the 1st century AD (Hebrews 12:24, Matthew 26:28).

The Bible, in English translations, sometimes also calls the New Covenant the New Testament. For the same original Greek word "diatheke" (G1242) can be translated into English as either "covenant" (e.g. Hebrews 8:8) or "testament" (e.g. Hebrews 9:15). So when believers refer to the 2 main parts of the Bible as the Old Testament and the New Testament, what they are really referring to are the 2 parts of the Bible which focus (for the most part) on the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

The New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-34 is already fulfilled, even though the prior, millennial prophecy of Jeremiah 31:1-14,16-25 (Jeremiah 31:15 was fulfilled in the 1st century AD: Matthew 2:17-18) and the other millennial prophecies haven't yet been fulfilled. For the making of the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31,33) was fulfilled at Jesus' crucifixion (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17), just as its being made with the houses of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31:31,33) has been fulfilled (Acts 2:5,36-41, Romans 11:1,17,24). And the New Covenant being not according to the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Jeremiah 31:32) has been fulfilled (Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17). And the New Covenant law of Jesus being written on the hearts of believers (Jeremiah 31:33) has been fulfilled (Romans 6:17, Ephesians 6:6, Galatians 6:2). And "they shall teach no more every man his neighbour" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:27). And "they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:13). And "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jeremiah 31:34) has been fulfilled (1 John 2:12).
 
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BABerean2

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Luk 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.
Luk 2:22 And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
Luk 2:23 (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord;)
Luk 2:24 And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

Luk 2:25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

Luk 2:26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

Luk 2:27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

Luk 2:28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

Luk 2:29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

Luk 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

.
 
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The church isn't treated as new by the apostles, but as the true people of God all along. That's why we have Heb 11 and why Gal 3:17 says there was displacement and voiding going on when the Law came that was not supposed to happen. Or Paul's "us" "elect" or "remnant."

The thing hidden for ages in Eph 3:6 is only that the Gospel event itself fulfills OT hopes. It's saying that all those things expected to happen are to happen through the Gospel. So they are going to look different from how they were written. Judaism thought Gentiles were going to 'come in' by ceremony and worshipping at Jerusalem etc. They do "come in" but not by those things. They come in by faith in Christ.
 
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How about some simple and straightforward truths in three passages.

There is neither Jew nor Greek

&​

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

&​

For there is no respect of persons with God.

How's that for keeping it simple and straight to the point? Amen?
 
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BABerean2

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:amen:
How about some simple and straightforward truths in three passages.

There is neither Jew nor Greek

&​

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

&​

For there is no respect of persons with God.

How's that for keeping it simple and straight to the point? Amen?


:amen:
 
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ThatTrueLight

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The church isn't treated as new by the apostles, but as the true people of God all along.

The Apostle to the Gentiles must be confused then, thanks for clearing that up.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
 
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ThatTrueLight

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How about some simple and straightforward truths in three passages.

There is neither Jew nor Greek

&​

For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

&​

For there is no respect of persons with God.

How's that for keeping it simple and straight to the point? Amen?

So then, if there is neither JEW or GENTILE in CHRIST, then why do you insist that we're all Israelites?
 
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