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Sam Shamoun Debate on Trinity etc. (Isaiah 63 etc.)

Discussion in 'Traditional Theology' started by Pavel Mosko, Aug 1, 2020.

  1. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

    United States
    Oriental Orthodox
    I've been listening to this Assyrian Apologist (most likely Protestant). He spends a lot of time dealing with Muslims, but found this broadcast really good. I been studying the historical and theological antecedents of the Trinity for some time. Last night I learned probably the best evidence of the Trinity so far from the Old Testament tonight. At 31.31 of the video he covers this.

    Isaiah 63
    Praise and Prayer
    7 I will tell of the kindnesses of the Lord,
    the deeds for which he is to be praised,
    according to all the Lord has done for us—
    yes, the many good things
    he has done for Israel,
    according to his compassion and many kindnesses.
    8 He said, “Surely they are my people,
    children who will be true to me”;
    and so he became their Savior.
    9 In all their distress he too was distressed,
    and the angel of his presence saved them.[a]
    In his love and mercy he redeemed them;
    he lifted them up and carried them
    all the days of old.
    10 Yet they rebelled
    and grieved his Holy Spirit.
    So he turned and became their enemy
    and he himself fought against them.

    In this passage, you have the 3 members of the Trinity. You got the Lord (Adonia / Hashem), the Angel of the Lord (which throughout the OT does things only the Lord does) and finally the mention of the Holy Spirit that is "grieved" in verse 10. I just point this out because there are a lot of Binitarianism passages in the OT concerning the Angel of the Lord, but this one gets you all the way to Trinitarianism.

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  2. SeekingGloryOnThisJourney

    SeekingGloryOnThisJourney Active Member

    United States
    Eastern Orthodox
    And Isaiah 48:16-17
  3. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

    United States
    Oriental Orthodox
    That's great, they used that one or one like it just before the cited verse, but I didn't appreciate or see the full Trinitarian aspects because it was covered very quickly (you have to know or comprehend that "sent me" refers to the angel of the Lord.) But that is good because you get into "Out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses", so would be nice to get more of that sort of thing.
  4. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

    United States
    Oriental Orthodox
    Isaiah 54:5
    King James Version

    5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

    Another verse. Lots of people are use to the notion of Elohim and can discount it as a "plural of majesty", or even a word that was borrowed from polytheism. Unlike the English translations, if you read the Hebrew this verse would be more accurately translated "Your Makers are your husbands, the Lord of Hosts is his name"
  5. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

    United States