Salvational Logic And Mr. Bill

[Not David]

Okay... obedience to the Gospel, is our Belief.

What I am saying is... that Jesus is our total Salvation and upon accepting Him, I have Salvational assurance.

What does “Obedience” mean to you?

Following what the Lord knows is the best for me which is Himself.

 

[Grip Docility]

Exactly! Also Paul when talking about "works" is talking about the Jewish law which is not the one that brings salvation. Plus, him mentioning "working out your salvation with fear and trembling" takes away the idea that we have no will in doing godly works.

Okay... this is a clear point of contention.

Paul is specifically warning against telling others how to be Saved... beyond faith.

Each person’s walk is unique.

I am fairly positive that this is doctrine of Co-Salvation.

Sin is what prevents salvation. Sin is charged by the Law. Grace is sufficient. Jesus is sufficient.

I’ll ask this sincerely...

Is Jesus Work enough to COMPLETELY Save a person, upon belief?

 

[Grip Docility]

Following what the Lord knows is the best for me which is Himself.

Okay... as in Holding to the fact that it is Him alone that Saves us, upon our belief...

Or is there a.... But wait! There’s more?

 

[Chris V++]

Okay... as in Holding to the fact that it is Him alone that Saves us, upon our belief...

Or is there a.... But wait! There’s more?

I think the argument is that the faith, up front, is enough, but then one must continually participate in the sacraments and finish the race.

 

[Grip Docility]

I think the argument is that the faith, up front, is enough, but then one must continually participate in the sacraments and finish the race.

In short, Sacraments are particularly viewed as “Outward” signs of the Inward impact of God’s Grace, and guidance of the Holy Spirit, from my understanding.

Is that a correct understanding?

 

[TheSeabass]

This post caught my attention.

Think of it this way.

If Bill "believes" and does nothing, does he really believe? The point is that true faith produces action, and not the other way around. It is not that we are active in our works, it's that we are active in our believing which is what leads us into the works God has prepared for us in Christ Jesus (Epeshians 2:10). There were many disciples of Jesus who did not truly believe in Him, and were quick to abandon Him when their unbelief became exposed (John 6:66). Even when it came to the disciples that did believe in Him, the problem of inaction is always identified as having little or no faith.

John 12:42 "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:"

Men can believe, but unless/until that belief leads to obedience, as confession, then that belief only is dead.

John 8:30-31 "As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"

The Jews belief only did not save them but their belief must obey the words of Christ (continue in HIs word) to have any saving value to it.

Salvation is guaranteed, faith is our part - and even in the face of inaction or unbelief, it is not that faith automatically fails so as to produce apostasy, look at the apostles.

In a sense, works are like a thermometer which simply gauges a room's temperature. A thermometer has no ability to change the temperature, it only reads it. Your works have no ability to change a thing but can serve as a gauge of where you are spiritually. Your works are subject to your faith and flow out of your faith and are the means God provides to build your faith as you serve Him. It is all centered on God through Christ.

James point is that works prove faith meaning if one has no works he cannot even prove his faith. Shew me thy faith without thy works and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

We are justified by grace, through faith and not of works. Believing in Christ is the one thing that saves you and not believing in Him is the one thing that condemns you. You can't even repent if you don't believe! You need to begin here.

Adding works as a prerequisite to salvation is to not understand the role that works play in our salvation. Abraham did not to do anything aside from listen to God and believe Him, and it was accounted to Him as righteousness (Romans 4:3).

"Not of works" in Eph 2:9 refers to works of merit therefore does not eliminate obedience as Abraham offering Isaac was an obedient work and he was justified by that work not by just thinking about offering Isaac.

John 6:28-29 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

You did not include verse 27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus makes it clear that one must work if he is to have everlasting life and the work Jesus gave the people to do in this context is the work of believing...NT belief is a work itself.

Paul Rom 5:1----------faith>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James 2----------------works>>>>>>>>>justifies

Again, since there is just one way to be saved/justified and the Bible does not contradict itself,then faith must be a work

John 8:24 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

This verse does not say "unless you believe only"

Jesus said belief saves John 3:16; John 8:24 as He says repentance saves (Luke 13:3) confession saves (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism saves (Mark 16:16). So we can see that in some verses, as John 8:24, "believe" is being used as a synecdoche were it would include repentance, confession and baptism.

Hebrews 3:12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
The Peril of Unbelief
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.

Unbelief alone is sufficient enough to cause one to be lost, yet salvation requires much more than belief alone. All the belief only in the world is not enough to save one who remains impenitent about his sins.

 

[Grip Docility]

John 12:42 "Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:"

Men can believe, but unless/until that belief leads to obedience, as confession, then that belief only is dead.

John 8:30-31 "As he spake these words, many believed on him. Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;"

The Jews belief only did not save them but their belief must obey the words of Christ (continue in HIs word) to have any saving value to it.



James point is that works prove faith meaning if one has no works he cannot even prove his faith. Shew me thy faith without thy works and I will shew thee my faith by my works.



"Not of works" in Eph 2:9 refers to works of merit therefore does not eliminate obedience as Abraham offering Isaac was an obedient work and he was justified by that work not by just thinking about offering Isaac.



You did not include verse 27 "Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed."

Jesus makes it clear that one must work if he is to have everlasting life and the work Jesus gave the people to do in this context is the work of believing...NT belief is a work itself.

Paul Rom 5:1----------faith>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James 2----------------works>>>>>>>>>justifies

Again, since there is just one way to be saved/justified and the Bible does not contradict itself,then faith must be a work



This verse does not say "unless you believe only"

Jesus said belief saves John 3:16; John 8:24 as He says repentance saves (Luke 13:3) confession saves (Matthew 10:32-33) and baptism saves (Mark 16:16). So we can see that in some verses, as John 8:24, "believe" is being used as a synecdoche were it would include repentance, confession and baptism.



Unbelief alone is sufficient enough to cause one to be lost, yet salvation requires much more than belief alone. All the belief only in the world is not enough to save one who remains impenitent about his sins.

Would you agree that we Offer up The Son as our sacrifice in Faith, as Abraham offered up Isaac, but God stopped him from doing in promise of His own provision.

I will add. God LOATHED... AND I MEAN LOATHED... when people offered up their children as sacrifices, because of how barbaric it was.

So ... here we see the crayola models of what really happened become elementary and insufficient to comprehend what really was Spiritually occurring on Earth and in Heaven when Jesus was handed over to the Sanhedrin by Satan, through Judas.

In this OP it is explained there is Demon Type Belief... as in knowing someone exists...

And there is Faith/Trust/Relationship based Belief.

Does this not weigh in on your use of “Belief”?

And I must add, only the WORK of Faith Justifies... on our part... Because it ALL depends on HIs works past that, not ours.

 

[TheSeabass]

I serve Christ. More specifically, I am told by all of Scripture... (Isaiah 43:11) that the works (Exodus 14:14) Of God are the Works that Save us.

His Life, Death, Burial and Resurrection culminate in our complete salvation.

Our response in Belief is our Work.

He does the rest. The complete travel package is provided, but I have to pick it up and trust Him.

You sidestepped what Paul said in verse 16, again:

We are serving either:
1) sin unto death (condemnation)
2) obedience unto righteousness (salvation)

Which one of these two do you serve? (There are no other options)

 

[Chris V++]

In short, Sacraments are particularly viewed as “Outward” signs of the Inward impact of God’s Grace, and guidance of the Holy Spirit, from my understanding.

Is that a correct understanding?

Some traditions view Communion as the actual body and blood of Christ, or His 'real presence.' Also confession and penance are deemed essential.

 

[Grip Docility]

Some traditions view Communion as the actual body and blood of Christ, or His 'real presence.' Also confession and penance are deemed essential.

I understand this and I will say that in ultimate recognition of Type and Anti-Type... I’m comfortable with what you have spelled out here... as a heart contrite to God communes perpetually ...... and as for Communion... be it the actual (Transubstantiation) Of the matter or the Spiritual union of God and Man through Faith... I see the value of what you are sharing here in conjunction with some understandings.

You are not really pushing it past “Faith”, here but towards maintaining Confidence in His sufficiency And always being Honest with Him.

 

[Grip Docility]

You sidestepped what Paul said in verse 16, again:

We are serving either:
1) sin unto death (condemnation)
2) obedience unto righteousness (salvation)

Which one of these two do you serve? (There are no other options)

Jesus said this already, Paul is parroting it.

It is in pertinence to this:

28 I assure you: People will be forgiven for all sins and whatever blasphemies they may blaspheme. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin” — because they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”
Mark 3:28-30 - Bible Gateway passage: Mark 3:28-30 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

 

[mark kennedy]

There are some simple terms that get thrown around in reference to accepting Jesus.

1) Justification
2) Sanctification
3) Atonement
4) Propitiation

Justification in theology always means (Made right before God)

Sanctification is a little more complicated because this gets redefined by many conflicting theologies.

- Some theologies state that after initial justification, the human response to “Sanctification” is a Salvational factor

- Some theologies state this is a work of the Holy Spirit that occurs naturally as a result of hearing and believing the gospel.

- Some theologies purport that a true Christian doesn’t sin and are Sanctified upon Justification

- Some theologies call this perseverance and again link it to human response after Justification

Atonement This simply means to repair something

Propitiation This simply means to Win or Regain Favor with God.

Logical use of these words in response to Jesus’ Death, Burial and Resurrection...

Jesus is God... so we can now say that these matters are rested on God’s shoulders as surely as the Cross was, on Christ’s agonizing walk to (The place of the Skull).

Justification- God’s Death, Burial and Resurrection are sufficient to Make a person right before God.

Sanctification- Exodus 14:14 is the best way to understand this

Atonement- When we put on Christ’s life, death, Burial and Resurrection like a Cloak... we are “Covered” like (Jacob) as he stood before (Isaac) and was seen as the “First Born Son”. The Birthright becomes ours.

Propitiation- God the Son pleased God the Father, through His Life, Death, Burial and Resurrection... unto Favor with God.

Now... Allow me to be clear...

Upon Faith: Christ’s Life, is imputed to us as if it was our own. This is how we are Justified.

Upon Faith: We are Justified through Jesus’ propitiation.

A Justified Christian that holds to Jesus as their Propitiation, will be naturally and effortlessly Sanctified within their soul, by the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:9)

The Atoning Covering Of Christ over our entire life (Happens upon Faith)... means we are Justified, Sanctified and Propitiated for, by Jesus.

John 6:28-29 tells us Belief is our Work. Yeah, I said it. It takes work to genuinely believe.

Belief has two meanings... I’ll illustrate.

We’ll use Mr. Bill as an example.

Mr. Bill is trapped in a burning plane and will soon die, unless Mr. Bill grabs a Parachute.

Demon type Belief...

Mr. Bill “Believes” The Parachute Exists. Does this save Mr. Bill? No! This is simple Belief that something is real.

This is Demon Type Belief. They know God is real... but they don’t “BELIEVE” in Him. They believe in POWER and SELF SUFFICIENCY.

Mr. Bill can Believe the Parachute Exists, but be too AFRAID to Have BELIEF in it to put it on. Can you say... “Oh No Mr. Bill”.

Saving Belief

Mr. Bill is Afraid to jump out of the plane and afraid the Parachute won’t work, but out of courage and necessity, Mr. Bill picks up the Parachute and Puts it on. Then, he Jumps!

Imagine if Mr. Bill has the Parachute on and decides He can do better than the Parachute, so he doesn’t pull the Rip Cord, and flaps his arms all the way down....

Mr. Bill ... would then... well (Oh No Mr. Bill)

But... let’s say Mr. Bill has Faith in the Parachute and pulls the Rip Cord...

Hooray Mr. Bill!!!

What have we learned?

Mr. Bill needed to use the Parachute with Faith to LIVE.

If Mr. Bill tells other people that his amazing ARM FLAPPING saved him, he would be wrong.

If Mr. Bill Said he had to FLAP his arms after the Parachute was opened, he would be wrong. Infact, his arm flapping may just cause his arms to tangle the Parachute cords and (OH NO, MR. BILL)

If Mr. Bill says... “I saw the Parachute, Put it on and depended on it to Save me. That’s why I’m alive to this very day.”

Mr. Bill would be telling THE TRUTH.

Great topic, could you have squezzed more delicate semantics in? The working definitions while a bit simplistic look pretty accurate to me. I love the Oh no Mr. Bill analogy, that was funny. I can't really dig into this and have only started to read the thread but I wanted to respond in order to subscribe to the thread. I just wanted to make one brief statement about atonement, that was the only time the the High Priest entered to Holy of Holies and entered the very presence of God. Jesus not only entered it but tore the veil seperating us from God in two. This happened at the cross when Jesus proclaimed 'it is fimished'! Redemptive history all came down to that moment.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[Grip Docility]

Great topic, could you have squezzed more delicate semantics in? The working definitions while a bit simplistic look pretty accurate to me. I love the Oh no Mr. Bill analogy, that was funny. I can't reallt dig into this and have only started to read the thread but I wanted to respond in order to subscribe to the thread. I just wanted to make one brief statement about atonement, that was the only time the the High Priest entered to Holy of Holies and entered the very presence of God. Jesus not only entered it bur tore the veil seperating us from God in two. This happened at the cross when Jesus proclaimed 'it is fimished'! Redemptive history all came down to that moment.

Grace and peace,
Mark

AMEN! Welcome to the thread, Mark! <3

 

[Chris V++]

I understand this and I will say that in ultimate recognition of Type and Anti-Type... I’m comfortable with what you have spelled out here... as a heart contrite to God communes perpetually ...... and as for Communion... be it the actual (Transubstantiation) Of the matter or the Spiritual union of God and Man through Faith... I see the value of what you are sharing here in conjunction with some understandings.

You are not really pushing it past “Faith”, here but towards maintaining Confidence in His sufficiency And always being Honest with Him.

Thank you. I was just mentioning the other pov. For a while I didn't believe in the real presence but now I'm on the fence, but not about transubstantiation though. I do spend a lot of time confessing direct to God but not to a priest or minister.

 

[mark kennedy]

AMEN! Welcome to the thread, Mark! <3

More to come when I get sone time, this one looks choice.

 

[Grip Docility]

Thank you. I was just mentioning the other pov. For a while I didn't believe in the real presence but now I'm on the fence, but not about transubstantiation though. I do spend a lot of time confessing direct to God but not to a priest or minister.

 

[TheSeabass]

Would you agree that we Offer up The Son as our sacrifice in Faith, as Abraham offered up Isaac, but God stopped him from doing in promise of His own provision.

I will add. God LOATHED... AND I MEAN LOATHED... when people offered up their children as sacrifices, because of how barbaric it was.

So ... here we see the crayola models of what really happened become elementary and insufficient to comprehend what really was Spiritually occurring on Earth and in Heaven when Jesus was handed over to the Sanhedrin by Satan, through Judas.

In this OP it is explained there is Demon Type Belief... as in knowing someone exists...

And there is Faith/Trust/Relationship based Belief.

Does this not weigh in on your use of “Belief”?

And I must add, only the WORK of Faith Justifies... on our part... Because it ALL depends on HIs works past that, not ours.

Abraham being justified was a process and nowhere in the Bible was he justified at one moment in time by having 'faith only'. This process of justification began in Gen 12 when he was told to leave his land house and kindred to a land God would show him and Abraham had obeyed (Romans 4:13 cf Hebrews 11:8). He was reckoned righteous in Gen 15, in Genesis 17 (from Romans 4:17-22) and when he offered Isaac.

Had Abraham failed anywhere in this process he would never had received the final justification found in Gen 22:12.

Yet it as not until he offered Isaac that God said in verse 12 "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

It is not that God did not know (God is omniscient) but God is using accommodative language to help Abraham understand that his offering Isaac was the final test in the process of his being justified. God did not 'know' in Gen 12 or Gen 15 or Gen 17 but not until Gen 22. Abraham went thru the process and past the final test in Gen 22. We today must go thru a test, a process of justification where we must believe, (John 8:24) repent (Luke 13:3) confess (Matt 10:32-33) and be baptized( Mark 16:16)

 

[Grip Docility]

Abraham being justified was a process and nowhere in the Bible was he justified at one moment in time by having 'faith only'. This process of justification began in Gen 12 when he was told to leave his land house and kindred to a land God would show him and Abraham had obeyed (Romans 4:13 cf Hebrews 11:8). He was reckoned righteous in Gen 15, in Genesis 17 (from Romans 4:17-22) and when he offered Isaac. Had Abraham failed anywhere in this process he would never had received the final justification found in Gen 22.

Yet it as not until he offered Isaac that God said "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me."

It is not that God did not know (God is omniscient) but God is using accommodative language to help Abraham understand that his offering Isaac was the final test in the process of his being justified. God did not 'know' in Gen 12 or Gen 15 or Gen 17 but not until Gen 22. Abraham went thru the process and past the final test in Gen 22. We today must go thru a test, a process of justification where we must believe, (John 8:24) repent (Luke 13:3) confess (Matt 10:32-33) and be baptized( Mark 16:16)

Paul says it without batting an eye. Abraham has faith that was visible in his offering up Isaac, and that Faith was CREDITED to him as RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Credited? Abe didn’t actual have the Capitol to afford what he purchased.

Did God Purchase it for Abe, according to Hebrews 11... upon the time all were waiting for to receive at the time of Jesus Completed work, of Salvation?

I again say He did.

Type... Isaac
Anti-Type ... Jesus

Faith in the Anti-Type Of Isaac = Righteousness

I still disagree with your premise... in opinion.

 

[TheSeabass]

Jesus said this already, Paul is parroting it.

It is in pertinence to this:

28 I assure you: People will be forgiven for all sins and whatever blasphemies they may blaspheme. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin” — because they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”
Mark 3:28-30 - Bible Gateway passage: Mark 3:28-30 - Holman Christian Standard Bible

You sidestepped Rom 16:6 again:

Are you serving sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness?

Romans 6:16 refutes Luther's faith only very effectively to the point faith onlyists avoid/dodge answering a simple question as to which they serve.

 

[TheSeabass]

Paul says it without batting an eye. Abraham has faith that was visible in his offering up Isaac, and that Faith was CREDITED to him as RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Credited? Abe didn’t actual have the Capitol to afford what he purchased.

Did God Purchase it for Abe, according to Hebrews 11... upon the time all were waiting for to receive at the time of Jesus Completed work, of Salvation?

I again say He did.

Type... Isaac
Anti-Type ... Jesus

Faith in the Anti-Type Of Isaac = Righteousness

I still disagree with your premise... in opinion.

Yes, it would have been CREDITED to Abraham for Christ had not yet shed His blood on the cross. It was put on Abraham's account so that when Christ did shed His blood, His blood flowed back to wash away all the sins of all those obedient OT characters as Abraham. But that blood washed away the sins of those obedient to the will of God and Abraham would not have been reckoned righteous and had his sins washed away by the blood of Christ if he had failed the justification process at any point.

Why did God choose Abraham to begin with? Was it a random choice? No...Genesis 18:19 "For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him." God foreknew Abraham would be obedient (not perfectly sinless) but obedient enough that God would be able to use Abraham to carryout His own will and that "the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which He had spoken of him". So it was not left to chance but upon foreknowledge that Abraham would be an obedient person to do God's will.