Salvation, With-&-Without Works

[rocknanchor]

Not for the faint of heart. Oh yes, get ready you who still brandish OSAS. IMO, the more concise we can abridge an incorruptible point (withstands the rigorous scope of scripture), the clearer it becomes for all. Got one? How about,

Without -

As newborn babes who were yet dead in trespasses and sins, He fully saved us by His mercy in Christ, the Author of our faith.​

With -

As we move towards maturity, that same faith will be rewarded by God by how we handled it, either bearing fruit towards the prize of His individual gifts, or to see it wither and die. (James 2:17).​

 

[Carl Emerson]

I think we confuse to seperate issues.

Our adoption into His family, and eternal reward for works done in His love.

Take the thief on the cross...

His lack of works had no bearing on his eternal status as a saved son through faith and confession.

Jesus would have known what wonderful works he would have walked in given the chance.

Works in His love are the evidence of the life we have received through Him.... if we are given the chance...

They do not secure salvation, but just bear testimony of who we are in Him.

There would be no death bed conversions otherwise.

 

[com7fy8]

Paul says we need "faith working through love" (in Galatians 5:6). And James in chapter two gives three examples of how a person is justified by works.

 

[Dave-W]

Take the thief on the cross...

Yes - take him back to where he was - under the MOSAIC covenant.
He was NOT saved under the New covenant.

 

[Dave-W]

With -

As we move towards maturity, that same faith will be rewarded by God by how we handled it, either bearing fruit towards the prize of His individual gifts, or to see it wither and die. (James 2:17).

That is not for salvation, it is required for growth and maturity AFTER salvation.

 

[~Zao~]

Not for the faint of heart. Oh yes, get ready you who still brandish OSAS. IMO, the more concise we can abridge an incorruptible point (withstands the rigorous scope of scripture), the clearer it becomes for all. Got one? How about,

Without -

As newborn babes who were yet dead in trespasses and sins, He fully saved us by His mercy in Christ, the Author of our faith.​

With -

As we move towards maturity, that same faith will be rewarded by God by how we handled it, either bearing fruit towards the prize of His individual gifts, or to see it wither and die. (James 2:17).​

If Christ is the author and finisher of faith does that mean that the Holy Spirit is the author and finisher of sanctification? No because that is His further work, at the throne of grace, where mercy meets the conscience of the human spirit, and single-mindedness supersedes that of the double-minded man.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Yes - take him back to where he was - under the MOSAIC covenant.
He was NOT saved under the New covenant.

With Jesus the Kingdom of Heaven arrived - was the lady caught in adultery forgiven under the Mosaic covenant ??

 

[Dave-W]

With Jesus the Kingdom of Heaven arrived - was the lady caught in adultery forgiven under the Mosaic covenant ??

Yes. Just as King David was.

 

[~Zao~]

Yes. Just as King David was.

Actually the sword never left his family.

 

[Dave-W]

Actually the sword never left his family.

true - but he and Bathsheba were not stoned to death. According to the law they should have been.

The woman in John 8 was guilty only of adultery, not murder, nor involving others in that murder.

 

[~Zao~]

No - but he and Bathsheba were not stoned to death.

The woman in John 8 was guilty only of adultery, not murder, nor involving others in that murder.

The point was that he didn’t get away with it like the man in John 8

 

[Dave-W]

The point was that he didn’t get away with it like the man in John 8

How do you know that?

 

[~Zao~]

How do you know that?

Because the sentence for that crime was that the sword never left his house! What was stolen was one lamb by one who had many. Unforgivable to God in my most humble opinion. But that’s human thinking and may not be what God considers the ultimate crime.

 

[~Zao~]

Because the sentence for that crime was that the sword never left his house! What was stolen was one lamb by one who had many. Unforgivable to God in my most humble opinion. But that’s human thinking and may not be what God considers the ultimate crime.

How do I know the man got away with it? It is not written.

 

[Dave-W]

Because the sentence for that crime was that the sword never left his house! What was stolen was one lamb by one who had many. Unforgivable to God in my most humble opinion. But that’s human thinking and may not be what God considers the ultimate crime.

No - how do you know the man in John 8 got off scott free?

 

[Dave-W]

How do I know the man got away with it? It is not written.

Lots of things happened that were never written.

A pastor tried to tell me once that Jesus only slept once or twice in his entire life, since that is all that is written.

 

[~Zao~]

Lots of things happened that were never written.

A pastor tried to tell me once that Jesus only slept once or twice in his entire life, since that is all that is written.

She was caught in adultery. Obviously only half the offending couple were about to be stoned.

 

[Dave-W]

She was caught in adultery. Obviously only half the offending couple were about to be stoned.

But the Law said BOTH were to be stoned.

My point was that God Himself visited on David's house a judgement.
How do you know that did NOT happen to the guy she was with?

 

[~Zao~]

But the Law said BOTH were to be stoned.

My point was that God Himself visited on David's house a judgement.
How do you know that did NOT happen to the guy she was with?

Get serious with the speculation. I guess it just depends on the motives of those involved, written not on walls but in the sand.

 

[rocknanchor]

"We must pay the most careful attention, therefore,
to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away."

(Hebrews, 2:1)​

, , the Apostle (if Paul) has included himself as well as the office as being just as susceptible (to ‘drift away’) as any other without a foregone conclusion of shelter from error. True, if this were to happen, they would most likely recover in a swift manner. But still misses my point, here, a full disregard to any fixed surety and gives warning of a distinct possibility of falling. And if that is true that they too are susceptible, the warning falls on the rest of the flock as well. The determination to resist this truth is not only without scriptural support, but an insidious portrayal of the faith to the faith of the flock.

Such resistance can’t rise up to defend the same committed discourse we were called to,

“I have kept the faith, , for me the crown of righteousness,”

(2 Timothy 4:7,8)​

The deepest plight of those unwilling to accept this truth is they are not capable to effectively challenge this, only a determined preference exists. This same determination causes an infectious immunity to approach the truth. Is such refusal demonic? I suppose that would fall on how familiar they are with that truth, and if it mirrors itself in resistance.