Salvation - Paradigm

[Malleeboy]

I have seen it espoused that one of the major differences between East and West, is the West emphasis a judicial paradigm of salvation, whereas EO emphasis more salvation as healing of the illness of sin?

I can see healing as one of the images of salvation that is in scripture but I can't help but see the western view as a better overall representation. Salvation is described/images as the following:

1) Personal Covenant, especially in terms of a suzerain/vassal covenant, however the suzerain takes on the punishment due to the vassal for the vassal failure to keep the covenant

2) Kingdom - Jesus often used descriptor of what he was about. Re-aligning ones self from the wrong kingdom to the true King and his kingdom

3) Marriage - Bride and Groom language, along with marriage being the replica of Christ and the church.

4) Adoption - the concept of being adopted as sons (& daughters) of God

The above four IMHO are far more common descriptors of salvation than healing. What they all have in common is that this is some sense a initiation that has a legal change, that then is expected to be lived out, if the change has indeed taken place. If you have truly found the pearl, then having found it will transform you, but it is having the pearl that initiates that transformation.

In Protestant theological terms, the free gift of justification begets sanctification (or in RC terms the gift of initial justification begets ongoing continuing justification). Now I do not doubt that repeated, deliberation wilful breaching of the covenant may cause someone to be in a state where they would through there own hardness of heart to reject the covenant.

However when listening to EO, I seem to perceive a downplaying of the change of state wrought by God's grace through justification, and that it is that change that is the catalyst for sanctification/glorification (ie theosis).

We love because, we are the beloved. We acts as sons, not because we need to earn son ship but that we are responding to the gift, learning to live out the truth and not dishonoring our true father.

Since love is lord of heaven and earth
How can I keep from singing?
Or if given such a gift as Christ,
How can we not, if we have Christ, live out Christ.
Not living to earn Christ.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I have seen it espoused that one of the major differences between East and West, is the West emphasis a judicial paradigm of salvation, whereas EO emphasis more salvation as healing of the illness of sin?

I can see healing as one of the images of salvation that is in scripture but I can't help but see the western view as a better overall representation. Salvation is described/images as the following:

1) Personal Covenant, especially in terms of a suzerain/vassal covenant, however the suzerain takes on the punishment due to the vassal for the vassal failure to keep the covenant

2) Kingdom - Jesus often used descriptor of what he was about. Re-aligning ones self from the wrong kingdom to the true King and his kingdom

3) Marriage - Bride and Groom language, along with marriage being the replica of Christ and the church.

4) Adoption - the concept of being adopted as sons (& daughters) of God

The above four IMHO are far more common descriptors of salvation than healing. What they all have in common is that this is some sense a initiation that has a legal change, that then is expected to be lived out, if the change has indeed taken place. If you have truly found the pearl, then having found it will transform you, but it is having the pearl that initiates that transformation.

In Protestant theological terms, the free gift of justification begets sanctification (or in RC terms the gift of initial justification begets ongoing continuing justification). Now I do not doubt that repeated, deliberation wilful breaching of the covenant may cause someone to be in a state where they would through there own hardness of heart to reject the covenant.

However when listening to EO, I seem to perceive a downplaying of the change of state wrought by God's grace through justification, and that it is that change that is the catalyst for sanctification/glorification (ie theosis).

We love because, we are the beloved. We acts as sons, not because we need to earn son ship but that we are responding to the gift, learning to live out the truth and not dishonoring our true father.

Since love is lord of heaven and earth
How can I keep from singing?
Or if given such a gift as Christ,
How can we not, if we have Christ, live out Christ.
Not living to earn Christ.

I am curious, how does what you posted contradict salvation as healing?

 

[Malleeboy]

I am curious, how does what you posted contradict salvation as healing?

What I said was,

I can see healing as one of the images of salvation that is in scripture but I can't help but see the western view as a better overall representation.

The other images are underplayed, and I only see one aspect emphasized. This leads to misaligned emphasis. Even with the healing motif, in Jesus own ministry for example it was not a gradual life long change but something that occurred on meeting Christ, that then had to be lived out. I get the impression (maybe wrongly) with EO, that the initial gift is reduced, to enabling transformation, not that which is the reality that we then learn to live out.

 

[ArmyMatt]

What I said was,

I can see healing as one of the images of salvation that is in scripture but I can't help but see the western view as a better overall representation.

The other images are underplayed, and I only see one aspect emphasized. This leads to misaligned emphasis. Even with the healing motif, in Jesus own ministry for example it was not a gradual life long change but something that occurred on meeting Christ, that then had to be lived out. I get the impression (maybe wrongly) with EO, that the initial gift is reduced, to enabling transformation, not that which is the reality that we then learn to live out.

ah, sorry for the misread. have you read the lives of the saints? because with them, the initial gift isn’t reduced.

 

[Malleeboy]

Lives of which saints??
I have read the earliest Christian writing quite a bit (eg 1 Clement, Didache, Shepherd, E of Barnabas).
Just finished reading most of the works of John of Damascus. Read through a fairly narrow but deep trench of early Father's on baptism in the frist 5 centuries courtesy of Ferguson's tome on baptism.

Although disregarding what any previous saint said or believed, my strong impression is that current Orthodox posters seem to place a concerted emphasis on salvation as healing, as if the other themes are not important.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Lives of which saints??
I have read the earliest Christian writing quite a bit (eg 1 Clement, Didache, Shepherd, E of Barnabas).
Just finished reading most of the works of John of Damascus. Read through a fairly narrow but deep trench of early Father's on baptism in the frist 5 centuries courtesy of Ferguson's tome on baptism.

Although disregarding what any previous saint said or believed, my strong impression is that current Orthodox posters seem to place a concerted emphasis on salvation as healing, as if the other themes are not important.

read their lives, not just their works. see how they encountered God.

 

[Malleeboy]

So taken for granted that the saints describe the initial gift is not reduced, why is it that modern Orthodox do not, or am I just misunderstanding?

 

[ArmyMatt]

So taken for granted that the saints describe the initial gift is not reduced, why is it that modern Orthodox do not, or am I just misunderstanding?

I think it’s a misunderstanding. plus, when dealing with Protestant questions, usually the differences are more focused on (at least in my experience).

 

[peregrinus2017]

The other images are underplayed, and I only see one aspect emphasized. This leads to misaligned emphasis

This topic reminds me of St. Augustine refuting Pelagius. In rejecting Pelagius's extreme views of man's role in his salvation, Augustine adopted a rather extreme view in the opposite direction. As much as Western Christendom has for the most part focused heavily on a juridical understanding of salvation, people coming to Orthodoxy can't help but emphasize what has been missing from their experience. In my few years within the Orthodox church, the working out of my salvation has been far deeper and all encompassing than anything I encountered elsewhere. There are no adequate words to express the inexpressible wonder of the salvation God has provided for us his creatures.