• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. The forums in the Christian Congregations category are now open only to Christian members. Please review our current Faith Groups list for information on which faith groups are considered to be Christian faiths. Christian members please remember to read the Statement of Purpose threads for each forum within Christian Congregations before posting in the forum.
  3. Please note there is a new rule regarding the posting of videos. It reads, "Post a summary of the videos you post . An exception can be made for music videos.". Unless you are simply sharing music, please post a summary, or the gist, of the video you wish to share.
  4. There have been some changes in the Life Stages section involving the following forums: Roaring 20s, Terrific Thirties, Fabulous Forties, and Golden Eagles. They are changed to Gen Z, Millennials, Gen X, and Golden Eagles will have a slight change.
  5. CF Staff, Angels and Ambassadors; ask that you join us in praying for the world in this difficult time, asking our Holy Father to stop the spread of the virus, and for healing of all affected.
  6. We are no longer allowing posts or threads that deny the existence of Covid-19. Members have lost loved ones to this virus and are grieving. As a Christian site, we do not need to add to the pain of the loss by allowing posts that deny the existence of the virus that killed their loved one. Future post denying the Covid-19 existence, calling it a hoax, will be addressed via the warning system.
  7. There has been an addition to the announcement regarding unacceptable nick names. The phrase "Let's go Brandon" actually stands for a profanity and will be seen as a violation of the profanity rule in the future.


Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Ron Gurley, Mar 6, 2018.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

    It is cause and effect. However, as I've repeatedly stated the passage was written concerning Israel.

    Also, you've assumed that when He said, "I give them" eternal life that He means at that very moment. However, Scripture shows that that is not the case. He gives them eternal life at the Resurrection and at that point the will never perish. This is why context is so extrmemely important and that we not take one sentence here and there and make random claims.
  2. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    Please respond to post #59. I'll not respond to anything else you post until you address that post.
  3. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    Nonsense. The verse is about eternal life. The CAUSE of possession of eternal life, and the EFFECT of possession of eternal life.

    The "very moment" being referred to is from John 5:42 and 6:47.

    5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

    6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

    OK. So, since it is quite clear that "whoever believes" or "the one who believes" possesses eternal life, please explain FROM SCRIPTUE WHEN that possession occurs, if not the "very moment" WHEN they believe.

    Oh, I see. So what Jesus said in John 5:24 and 6:47 just isn't true, then, huh.

    It is clear that you neither understand context nor clear and plain words from Jesus.

    Your posts have directlly contradicted what Jesus has said.
  4. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

    I understand that there isn't a reply so you'll have to deny to address it by saying you won't respond. I did respond to post 59. I said it is cause and effect. I agreed that you showed cause and effect. However, your application of that cause and effect was completely out of context. The cause and effect was spoken to Israel.
  5. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    Then it seems to be your claim that eternal life is only given to Jews. How ridiculous is that?

    Why don't Gentiles get eternal life?

    And please answer the question as to WHEN Jews receives eternal life, from John 5;24 and 6:47.
  6. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

    Yes, and the statement was made to Israel.

    Actually, since it's you who has assumed it the onus is actually on you to prove it is so. However, to save time I'll show that it isn't at that moment. All of the apostles believed in Jesus and yet they all died. How did they die if they received eternal life the instant they believed?

    Jesus said,

    34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
    35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
    36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Lk. 20:34-36 KJV)

    Notice that eternal life is connect to the body. Those in the Resurrection shall die no more. Since eternal life is of the body and we know that men die it is clear that eternal life doesn't happen until the resurrection.

    Moses recorded these words.

    22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
    23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
    24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. (Gen. 3:22-24 KJV)

    Note that man's access to the tree of life was cutoff denying him access to eternal life. However, Jesus said to the church at Ephesus,

    7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God. (Rev. 2:7 KJV)

    If these believers already had eternal life then Jesus wouldn't need to give them access to the Tree of Life. Yet we see He promises that to the overcomer.

    So, why does Jesus say that the believer has eternal life? Because the believer is given the Holy Spirit and it's by the Holy Spirit that the Father will raise them to eternal life. Paul said that the believer receives the holy Spirit as a down payment on their inheritance. He also said,

    11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. (Rom. 8:11 KJV)

    It's through the Spirit that the Father raises the dead.

    Now having explained it in such a way that it fits both the rest of Scripture and what we actually see in the real world I'll address the way you see it. Even if one did actually possess eternal life at present it still doesn't prove Eternal Security. Because Jesus said He gives eternal life to the one who is believing. He didn't say He gives eternal life to the one who used to believe or the one who doesn't believe. It's only to the one who is believing.

    See above

    On the contrary. I've shown that I understand the context and have explained the passage in context.

    On the onctrary. What they've done is contradicted your eisegesis of the passage in question.
  7. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

    As I understand your statement here it is referring to physical Jews. Salvation isn't restricted to physical Jews. However, as I said, Paul explains how eternal life goes to the Gentiles. And you know what? it's actually by becoming a Jew. although not a physical Jew.

    That's in the post above.
  8. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

    United States
    All of John the Elder's writings (Gospel + Letters + Revelation) were intended for / written to BELIEVERS, to The "CHURCH", to both the ethnic Jews and Gentiles therein. John wrote LAST!

    Acts 17:17
    So he was reasoning in the synagogue with the Jews and the God-fearing Gentiles, and in the market place every day with those who happened to be present.

    Acts 26:23
    that the Christ was to suffer, and that by reason of His resurrection from the dead He would be the first to proclaim light both to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles.”

    Romans 3:29
    Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

    Romans 9:24
    even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
  9. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

    That doesn't change who Jesus' words were directed to.
  10. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    By this logic, then John 3:16 was only made to Israel as well. How can one not realize how foolish such a claim would be??

    Only those who confuse and conflate physical life with eternal life would make such a mistake. Thanks for making that clear.

    Actually, there is nothing in these verses that "connect" eternal life to the body.

    Nope. Apples to oranges here. What happened to Adam and the woman was beginning their life IN relationship with God. And then LOSING it. That cannot happen with any other humans.

    What a misunderstanding of Scripture! The tree of life is a reference to Rev 22 and is a reward on the NEW EARTH in the NEW JERUSALEM. It's a promise of future reward.

    Oh, just because they HAVE it. Because He has GIVEN it to them WHEN they believe.

    Raising to eternal life is a future promise regarding eternity itself. But those who believe possess eternal life now.

    Yet, Jesus was clear enough: those who believe POSSESS eternal life. Not just some promise, or down payment. They HAVE it.

    Nonsense. There is no other explanation.

    This is just a blatant abuse of the Greek present tense. It NEVER means or even suggests that the EFFECT of a present action depends on continuance of the action.

    But, since this is your claim, please cite a Greek grammar text that makes such a statement about the present tense.

    What has been "explained" makes no sense and isn't even close to what the Bible says. By your claim, John 3:16 would apply only to Israel.
  11. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    I said:
    "Then it seems to be your claim that eternal life is only given to Jews. How ridiculous is that?

    Why don't Gentiles get eternal life?"
    No. You stated John 5:24 and 10:28 was to "Israel". And you quoted a verse about Jesus coming only to Israel. So of course I would assume your point was that Jesus was only referring to the Jews. You know, those who lived in Israel.

    No kidding. Which is why John 5:24 and 10:28a apply to "whoever believes".

    And Jesus made clear that those who believe are given eternal life, and those who are given eternal life shall never perish.

    One HAS TO either twist the words of Jesus (as you've done) or simply reject His words to come to the conclusion that anyone who has been saved (given eternal life) can perish.

    For everyone, it's only by believing in Jesus Christ.
  12. Butch5

    Butch5 Newbie Supporter

    Why do you continue to try to reason away what Jesus said?

    Physical life is the only life. Eternal life is connect with the body.

    Actually you might want to read it agin.

    They were barred from the Tree of Life so that they wouldn't live forever. You gotta stop making things up.

    Yes, it's reward in the future. That's what eternal life is.

    He said it to a church of believers. If they already had eternal life what need would there be to eat from the Tree of Life and live forever. That statement right there shows they didn't have it at that time.

    And yet they die. Kinda defeats the purpose, huh?

    And yet they die. By definition eternal means unending.

    Sure there is, reread the post.

    You gonna try this straw man again? I didn't say anything about the word continuous. I'll repeat it again. The promise is to the one who "IS" believing. It's not to the one who used to believe. The one who used to believe is not one who "IS" believing. The one who used to believe is one who isn't believing. The promise is not to the one who isn't believing, it's to the one who "IS" believing.

    If it makes no sense to you it's because you're not grasping the Scriptures. Jesus made it clear that He only came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Therefore all of His words must be understood in that context. However, it's clear to me from reading your posts and seeing these statements our of context that you're not doing that. Thus the misunderstanding of the Scriptures.
  13. Theophan

    Theophan Member

    United States
    31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

    34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 37I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

    39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.

    The Children of the Devil

    42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

    Before Abraham Was, I Am

    48Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? 49Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me. 50And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. 51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. 52Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. 53Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself? 54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God: 55Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    The very Jews who "believed on Him" were the same ones who picked up stones to throw at the Lord.

    But...no worries, mate! They were already saved before they decided to stone the King of Glory! Right?
  14. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    I said:
    "By this logic, then John 3:16 was only made to Israel as well. How can one not realize how foolish such a claim would be??"
    No, I've not reasoned anything away. I have pointed out what a foolish claim is.

    This claim has not been supported from Scripture. And the claim that physical life is the "only life" is laughable. The Bible speaks of eternal life, which only believers possess.

    Right. In their sinful lost condition.

    You gotta stop making such false claims.

    God's life is eternal. Is that only future? Of course not. You're still not making any sense.

    Only those who can't grasp the difference between physical and eternal life would make such a statement.

    In fact, the souls of unbelievers will exist after physical life in a place the Bible calls the "second death". Doesn't sound like living to me.

    So, believers, who according to the Bible, possess eternal life, will live with God in eternity, and be saved from the "second death".

    Please read John 5:24 again. Jesus uses the past tense, present tense and future tense regarding those who have believed.

    Go ahead and continue to abuse the meaning of the present tense.

    Regarding the sealing of the Holy Spirit, noted in Eph 1:13,14, the sealing is for those "having believed". Aorist tense. And the result is the guarantee of our inheritance. Based on having believed. Not "is" believing, as if one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved, or even just to be saved.

    Again, you fail to grasp Jesus' words in John 10:28a.

    Whoever believes (John 5:24) or the one who believes (John 6:47) possesses eternal life. And v.28a says those Jesus gives eternal life shall never perish.

    The notion of losing eternal life means one MUST deny Jesus' words.

    The promise is for those who have been given eternal life. Jesus said so. Jn 10:28a.

    Your claims and posts are disconnected from Scripture.

    So, once again, is this about physical Jews or who, exactly?

    Yes, I fully agree that you've misunderstand a whole lot of Scripture.
  15. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    False. We know from examining John 8:30,31 and then v.45 that the verses following v.32 refer back to the unbelieving Jews. Just count the times "they", "then", "you", "your", "the Jews", "we" and "our" are used in John 8:13-45.

    In v.13, we have "the Pharisees", and each of these words refer to them.

    "you" = 30 times
    "your" = 3 times
    "they" = 6 times
    "them" = 3 times
    "the Jews" = 1 time
    "we" = 4 times
    "our" = 1 time

    V.30 and 31 clearly state that "many believed" in Him. Since v.45 also clearly states that "they" do not believe, it should be clear that you/your/they/them/the Jews/we/our cannot be referring to the many who believed.

    Those who believed didn't stone Him.

    But, hey. Go ahead and ignore the FACT of what Jesus said in John 10:28a.

    When He said "I give them eternal life" He was stating the CAUSE of possession of eternal life.

    And when He said "and they shall never perish", He was stating the EFFECT of possession of eternal life.

    Previously, in John 5:24 and 6:47, Jesus said whoever believes and the one who believes possesses eternal life. So we know that WHEN one believes, they are given eternal life.

    And the EFFECT of being given eternal life is never perishing.

    This is eternal security. Plain and simple.
  16. Theophan

    Theophan Member

    United States
    What in the world are you talking about, my poor brother?

    READ it again.

    31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33They [the Jews which believed on Him] answered Him , We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

    Beginning in V 31, we see Jesus begin a dialogue with the Jews which believed on Him. Where do you see this changing? No where in the remainder of this passage do we find Jesus changing His audience. No where do we find the idea that those were different Jews who decided to stone Him. You came up with some outlandish exegesis that even an atheist would reject on the basis of pure absurdity since it is completely illogical. You count how many times certain words occurred to make your point legitimate? Huh??? So, because the words, "they, them, you, we, our, etc" occurred many times, somehow your interpretation is correct? Somehow Jesus is not talking to those Jews which believed on Him? And somehow He began talking to different Jews, which didn't believe on Him? Even though that transition is no where to be found in the text.

    People want eternal security to be a true doctrine, which was never believed by Christians since the beginning of the Church until Martin Luther in the 1500s, so that they do not live a true life of faith and repentance. They want to be once saved, always saved so that they can continue embracing their sinful habits without consequence. They want to ignore all of the scriptures that completely refute their demonic delusions so that they don't have to get on their knees before God and weep for their sins, asking for forgiveness and grace to become more sanctified and to increase in love for God.

    They keep saying, "The Bible teaches eternal security!" No, it doesn't. YOU teach it! The Saducees memorized the entire Pentateuch and came up with crafty arguments to disprove the resurrection of the dead, angels, etc. They would say, "Look at these scriptures. We are right in asserting there is no resurrection of the dead." What did Christ say to them, "You greatly err, not knowing the Scriptures, neither the power of God."

    You believe that somehow God's salvation works differently in the OT compared to the NT. No, God didn't change. The means by which He saved people never changed. It was always through faith in Christ that the Saints were saved. But read the Psalms, O Theologian Friend, tell me how you could conclude that he believed in assurance of salvation even though He was saved by Christ and prophesied about Him?

    Therefore, "You greatly err"
  17. Theophan

    Theophan Member

    United States
    And you also greatly err in your approach to interpreting the Scriptures. You blatantly hold to a very literal-analytical method. This is not how Christians interpret the Scriptures; we do it through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not by crafty techniques and shallow arguments based on literary deductions.
  18. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

    United States
    Eternal spiritual life is given at conception. At death the immortal Spirit leaves its "house" : the mortal Body / Soul combo. The spirit returns to God for judgment. Believers' spiritual status IN Christ is NOT Judged.

    Ecclesiastes 12...Remember God in Your Youth: AT DEATH...
    7 then the dust (Body/Soul combo) will return to the earth as it was, (Genesis 2:7)
    and the SPIRIT (breath of life) will return to God who gave it. (Genesis 1:26)
    8 “Vanity of vanities,” says the Preacher, “all is vanity!”

    Isaiah 42:5
    Thus says God the Lord,
    Who created the heavens and stretched them out,
    Who spread out the earth and its offspring,
    Who gives "breath" to the people on it (Body/Soul combo)And
    SPIRIT to those who walk in it,

    Zechariah 12:1 ...
    Thus declares the Lord who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and
    forms the SPIRIT of man within him,

    Hebrews 9:27
    And inasmuch as it is appointed for men (Body/Soul combo) to "die" once
    and after this comes judgment,(of immortal SPIRIT)

    Bodies (sarx / flesh) are mortal. They die a natural death when the heart / brain fail.
    Souls (psyches) are mortal and have a MYSTERIOUS union with Body. They die a natural death with the Body.
    Spirits (pnuema) are immortal, made in the image and likeness of the God of pure and perfect spirit.
    The Body / Soul combo "houses" the Spirit.
    All SPIRITS will be JUDGED by God for their acts / omissions while in the Body / Soul.

    Romans 14:10 ...for BELIEVERS ONLY!
    But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the "judgment seat of God".

    2 Corinthians 5:10 ...for BELIEVERS ONLY!
    For we must all appear before the "judgment seat of Christ", so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the BODY( +soul?),
    according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

    1 Peter 4:6
    For the gospel has for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead,
    that though they are judged in the flesh as men,
    they may live in the spirit according to the will of God.

    1 Corinthians 6:19
    Or do you not know that your BODY (/soul) is a temple of (God) the Holy Spirit who is in you,
    whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

    Mark 3:29
    but whoever blasphemes against (God) the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness,
    but is guilty of an "eternal sin”—

    Galatians 6:8
    For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption,
    but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap "eternal life"

    Hebrews 9:14
    how much more will the blood of Christ,
    who through the "eternal Spirit" offered Himself without blemish to God,
    cleanse your conscience (soul) from dead works to serve the living God?
  19. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    I clearly explained who all the "they", "them", "our", "you", "your" and "we" are.

    You missed the previous verse. v.30 - Even as he spoke, many believed in him.

    John was speaking truth here. There were many in that crowd who believed in Him.

    So v.31 is STILL about the "many who believed in Him".

    v.32 is a statement TO the "many who believed in Him". Not to "the Jews" or "the Pharisees". All of which were NOT believing in Him.

    Here's what you're missing. When Jesus spoke of the truth in v.32, it was the "they" who responded, even though He wasn't speaking to "them". His statements were to the "many who believed in Him".

    iow, the unbelieving Jews interrupted in v.33. They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

    Yet, He wasn't addressing the unbelieving Jews. Just keep reading. At v.45, Jesus plainly tells the unbelievers that they don't believe, and why they don't.

    Those who don't want to see it just won't. And I cannot help them.

    What is clear is that in the whole crowd who were listening to Jesus, there were "many" who DID believe in Him. John SAID so and recorded it.

    But it seems you'd rather argue that John and Jesus weren't on the same page here, and that John mis-spoke or some nonsense like that.

    My exegesis is EXACTLY what was written.

    So, it DOES seem that your argument is that John and Jesus weren't in agreement about the "many" who believed. John said they DID, but your view is the whole crowd DIDN'T believe.

    Do you believe in context, or are you satisfied to just make up a bunch of stuff?

    So, is this an argument that all those words refer to different groups within the whole group? Then why all the difficulty with my exegesis about a group of Jews who DID believe in Him within the larger crowd of unbelieving Jews?

    You're not being consistent, that's for sure.

    Uh, no. He WAS talking to believing Jews in v.32.

    Here's v.31-32 together, for context;
    31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.
    32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

    Couldn't be any more clear. v.31 tells us who Jesus was speaking to; believers.

    And in v.32, the "then you" also refers to those Jews who had believed.

    Sure. In v.33, the "they" basically showed their ignorance by what they said:
    v.33 - They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

    This is the reason I counted all the related words. The "they" at the beginning of v.33 refers to the SAME people as all the other words I counted.

    I never mentioned any "transition". But v.33 was said by unbelieving Jews, not the believing Jews of v.30-32.

    Jesus taught eternal security clearly. After teaching that whoever believes (Jn 5:24) or "the one who believes" (Jn 6:47) HAS (possesses) eternal life, He then taught in Jn 10:28a that He is the CAUSE of possessing eternal life by the words "I give them eternal life" and the EFFECT of possessing eternal life by the words "and they shall never perish".

    So, what part of "never perish" don't you understand or like?

    This is a fallacious myth. The Bible is full of consequences for disobedience and unfaithfulness. Just not anything about losing salvation/eternal life.

    Heb 12:11 speaks of God's painful discipline. Do you believe that God is able to administer discipline that is painful or not?

    If so, you should repent of your comment about OSAS being about sinning without consequence.

    Jesus wasn't demon possessed when He taught that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. What a horrible viewpoint of the Savior!!

    Nor do I think He changed. What did Paul use to evangelize the known world of the time? The Scriptures, which included ONLY the OT.

    Consider all these verses:
    Moses and the Prophets regarding salvation through faith in Christ

    Luke 24:27, 44 - 27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. 44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

    Luke 16:29,30,31 - 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”

    John 1:45 - Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

    John 5 - 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

    45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

    John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

    John 12:34 - The crowd spoke up, “We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this ‘Son of Man’?”

    John 20:9- (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

    Acts 3:22,23,24 - 22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’ 24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days.

    Acts 9:22 - Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah. [obviously from the OT]

    Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

    Acts 13:27, 29 - 27 -The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 29 - When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb.

    Acts 13:39 - Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

    Acts 15:5,10 - 5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? [this shows that the Law of Moses didn’t save]

    Acts 17:2,3,11 - 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

    Acts 18:28 - For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.

    Acts 24:14,24 - 14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus.

    Acts 26:6,7,22,23 - 6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today. 7 This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me. 22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen— 23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”

    Acts 28:23 - They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.

    Rom 1:2 - the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

    Rom 3:20-22 - 20 Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

    Rom 3:27,28 27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

    All these verses show that salvation in the OT was the SAME as in the NT.

    Where do any of the Psalms teach loss of salvation? Please back up your claims with actual Scripture.

    Not me. That's on you.
  20. FreeGrace2

    FreeGrace2 Senior Veteran

    An opinion. Nothing more.

    And what "method" do you suscribe to?

    So God talks to you directly when you read Scripture? Interesting.

    I'm more than satisfied with taking the actual words of Scripture MEAN what they SAY.

    Those who aren't satsified or comfortable with that method have a huge problem.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.