SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

[justbyfaith]

Yes, it is true that he ever lives to make intercession for us, that we might be saved to the uttermost. This intercession is not only for forgiveness, but that we might be made holy. God commands us to be holy as He is holy. But He must be wrong to expect this of us because we cannot do it--but the reality is that we cannot do it in and of ourselves. He can do it within us though (Ephesians 3:20). And if He can do it within us, we will be held accountable if we didn't receive this work of sovereign grace (see Romans 5:17 and context).

 

[Grip Docility]

I'm getting tired of this website doing double posts and such.

It’s okay... it was good enough to be posted twice...

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, it is true that he ever lives to make intercession for us, that we might be saved to the uttermost. This intercession is not only for forgiveness, but that we might be made holy. God commands us to be holy as He is holy. But He must be wrong to expect this of us because we cannot do it--but the reality is that we cannot do it in and of ourselves. He can do it within us though (Ephesians 3:20). And if He can do it within us, we will be held accountable if we didn't receive this work of sovereign grace (see Romans 5:17 and context).

 

[Grip Docility]

I'm getting tired of this website doing double posts and such.

It’s okay... it was good enough to be posted twice...

 

[justbyfaith]

LOL!

 

[FreeGrace2]

The one who does the will of God abides for ever (1 John 2:17). Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not (1 John 3:6).

Did you not understand what I said about abiding?

Now, those who do the will of God refers to believing in His Son and receiving eternal life, per John 6:40. Its very straightforward.

And those believers who are in fellowship with Christ do not sin. Period. 1 Jn 3:6.

What do you think my answer is, which is from the Bible?

I have no idea, and I have no idea what you think abiding in Him even means.

The problem is that so many people read the Bible and say, "This must mean something else," so they pervert the literal interpretation and change the meaning of scripture in their minds.

i've noticed that with the OSNAS crowd. They quote all kinds of verses, thinking they are about loss of salvation, but not a one of them plainly say anything about losing salvation. And it takes a great amount of assumption to come to their viewpoint.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes, we put our complete trust in what Jesus did for us. But His blood for us was shed on the Cross, which has the power to cleanse us from ALL sin (1 John 1:7, Titus 2:14), even to sanctify us wholly (Hebrews 13:12, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:10, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9).

Agreed!

On another note, the new nature does not sin;

That's what I've been saying. 1 Jn 3:9

but neither are we ever obligated to obey the old nature in what we do.

Correct. Paul spoke about that at length in Rom 6.

 

[justbyfaith]

Then it appears we are in agreement; because neither am I in the OSNAS crowd.

 

[Marvin Knox]

The one who does the will of God abides for ever (1 John 2:17). Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not (1 John 3:6). What do you think my answer is, which is from the Bible? The problem is that so many people read the Bible and say, "This must mean something else," so they pervert the literal interpretation and change the meaning of scripture in their minds.

Do you think that someone here has perverted and changed the meaning of scripture?

If so - where?

On another note, the new nature does not sin; but neither are we ever obligated to obey the old nature in what we do.

Of course. we all believe that.

Yes, it is true that he ever lives to make intercession for us, that we might be saved to the uttermost. This intercession is not only for forgiveness, but that we might be made holy. God commands us to be holy as He is holy. But He must be wrong to expect this of us because we cannot do it--but the reality is that we cannot do it in and of ourselves. He can do it within us though (Ephesians 3:20). And if He can do it within us, we will be held accountable if we didn't receive this work of sovereign grace (see Romans 5:17 and context).

Again - we all believe that.

Where do you see something presented by me (for instance) which is not correct.

You tell us that you believe in the security of the believer and that's good.

But, that being the case, I don't think any of us know what your point is.

Unless of course that you think that a particular point of holiness must be attained to achieve salvation. If that is the case you are preaching salvation by works which come before the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit. That is a false gospel of works.

On the other hand, if you think that it is the Holy Spirit we have received who then makes the works possible through His power, then your belief that all do not achieve some particular level of holiness or they will not be saved is the opposite of eternal security - without a shadow of doubt.

Acts2:38 and JLB777 are openly teaching against eternal security and preaching a gospel of works so they are easy to understand (even though they are wrong).

You - on the other hand - not so much. Just tell us where you're coming from - cause you're all over the map from my viewpoint.

 

[justbyfaith]

I would also point you to the whole of the OP in the thread in the hamartiology section of general theology on these boards, entitled, Freedom from Sin: Overcoming the Wet Paint Principle (the complete version). Reading it over and over, or maybe even once, will bring you into fellowship with Christ, if you are not, without making you feel condemned over individual sins that you may have committed in the recent past. It is a holiness message that does not leave out the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

Do you think that someone here has perverted and changed the meaning of scripture?

If so - where?

Of course. we all believe that.

Again - we all believe that.

Where do you see something presented by me (for instance) which is not correct.

You tell us that you believe in the security of the believer and that's good.

But, that being the case, I don't think any of us know what your point is.

Unless of course that you think that a particular point of holiness must be attained to achieve salvation. If that is the case you are preaching salvation by works which come before the indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit. That is a false gospel of works.

On the other hand, if you think that it is the Holy Spirit we have received who then makes the works possible through His power, then your belief that all do not achieve some particular level of holiness or they will not be saved is the opposite of eternal security - without a shadow of doubt.

Acts2:38 and JLB777 are openly teaching against eternal security and preaching a gospel of works so they are easy to understand (even though they are wrong).

You - on the other hand - not so much. Just tell us where you're coming from - cause you're all over the map from my viewpoint.

The thread that I just pointed you to will explain my position more clearly...but I will also try to explain it better here.

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm not accusing anyone anywhere of perverting scripture...I think that most people do what I have said, however, with such passages as 1 John 3:3-9, Hebrews 10:10-14, and 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, so that they deny what they call "sinless perfection" which is a misnomer. It is more accurately called entire sanctification. The real doctrine does not deny the reality of 1 John 1:8, but declares that the element of indwelling sin can be rendered dead (Romans 7:8). This is not salvation by works. Even in the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith, those who are saved are delivered from sin, they are no longer children of wrath by nature, and they no longer obey the dictates of the flesh and of the mind. We were once dead in our trespasses and sins, but have now been quickened (made alive). Ephesians 2:1-10.

 

[justbyfaith]

In referring to fellowship with Christ in post #408, I was referring to something said by @FreeGrace2 that he later deleted. Something about how those who are in fellowship with Christ don't sin. The primary reason I agreed with him, because he seemed at that point to agree with 1 John 3:6 as correlated to 1 John 2:17.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Even in the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith, those who are saved are delivered from sin, they are no longer children of wrath by nature, and they no longer obey the dictates of the flesh and of the mind.

This is a fallacious statement, considering what Paul wrote in Romans 6:
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
13 Do not offer any part of yourself to sin as an instrument of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer every part of yourself to him as an instrument of righteousness.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
19 I am using an example from everyday life because of your human limitations. Just as you used to offer yourselves as slaves to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer yourselves as slaves to righteousness leading to holiness.

Then in Romans 7:
15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.
19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing.
21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me.
25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Note the present tense in these verses. This isn't something Paul was referring to from his past, but is currently occurring.

Also, note the choice believers have in v.12,13,15,16.

 

[FreeGrace2]

In referring to fellowship with Christ in post #408, I was referring to something said by @FreeGrace2 that he later deleted. Something about how those who are in fellowship with Christ don't sin. The primary reason I agreed with him, because he seemed at that point to agree with 1 John 3:6 as correlated to 1 John 2:17.

I haven't deleted anything, so it's odd that you are claiming that I did.

I stand by my statement that believers who are in fellowship with Christ don't sin. In fact, they can't sin.

Paul gave 4 commands to believers in regard to the Holy Spirit.

1. Be filled with the Spirit - Eph 5:18
2. walk by means of the Spirit - Gal 5:16
3. stop grieving the Spirit - Eph 4:30
4. stop quenching the Spirit - 1 Thess 5:19

The first 2 commands can only be done when in fellowship with Christ.

The second 2 commands prevent fellowship with Christ and involve sin.

 

[Marvin Knox]

....they deny what they call "sinless perfection" which is a misnomer. It is more accurately called entire sanctification.

I have no problem with anyone who believes they can become sinless before they die by effort and cooperation with the Holy Spirit.

Most of us deny that sinless perfection is possible in this life. We base that on the scriptures of course. You apparently see it differently.

The real doctrine does not deny the reality of 1 John 1:8, but declares that the element of indwelling sin can be rendered dead (Romans 7:8). This is not salvation by works.

No - of course it isn't and I haven't said that it is.

Even in the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith, those who are saved are delivered from sin, they are no longer children of wrath by nature, and they no longer obey the dictates of the flesh and of the mind. We were once dead in our trespasses and sins, but have now been quickened (made alive). Ephesians 2:1-10.

Of course we are delivered from the eternal curse of God for our sin and can be delivered from the ongoing effects of sin in our lives according to how much we cooperate with the Spirit within us.

The problem I have is with anyone who says that a person who does not achieve perfection is not saved in the end - and or was not saved in the first place. Equally - I have a problem with anyone who sets up a particular standard of partial sanctification and makes that a criteria for being saved. If you aren't saying something approaching those related heresies, we have no problem.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Back on point please: Can a true believer lose his spiritual Position in Christ?

SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE...SEE POST #1

 

[justbyfaith]

@FreeGrace2,

The statement that you claim is fallacious is taken directly from the context of Ephesians 2:8-9, in Ephesians 2:1-10. Perhaps you should read those verses.

Also, Romans 7:14-25 finds Paul using the literary tactic of identificaton...he is being all things to all men that he might by any means save some...so he sets himself forth as carnal, sold under sin...I will leave it up to you to decide as to whether someone who is truly carnal and sold under sin could really be an author of over half the books in the New Testament, which has been instrumental in setting many people free from sin.

 

[justbyfaith]

You would know a tree by the fruit that it bears...is not this a biblical principle?

 

[justbyfaith]

@Marvin Knox,

Take your mind off the idea of perfection and put your focus on whether you have an obedient heart from moment to moment...a born again heart is an obedient heart...Ezekiel 36:25-27...see also Acts of the Apostles 5:32.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Ron Gurley,

My answer to your question would be no...but we also are not going to stop our discussion in mid-track just because you think it is off-topic. In all reality, it is relevant to the topic.

 

[justbyfaith]

I haven't deleted anything, so it's odd that you are claiming that I did.

I stand by my statement that believers who are in fellowship with Christ don't sin. In fact, they can't sin.

Paul gave 4 commands to believers in regard to the Holy Spirit.

1. Be filled with the Spirit - Eph 5:18
2. walk by means of the Spirit - Gal 5:16
3. stop grieving the Spirit - Eph 4:30
4. stop quenching the Spirit - 1 Thess 5:19

The first 2 commands can only be done when in fellowship with Christ.

The second 2 commands prevent fellowship with Christ and involve sin.

Sorry. I mistook post #405 for post #404. My bad. They looked similar to me.