Salvation loss. Is it possible?

[Haipule]

If you go out tomorrow, rape and murder 20 people, and then kill yourself, do you really think that you are just going to waltz your way into heaven Scott free?

Of course there are things that you have to do. Refraining from raping and murdering 20 people in the moments before your kill yourself would be one of them.

If you go out tomorrow, rape and murder 20 people,

Yeah, David and I, He's a man after my own heart! But, he's only 1(rape) and 1(murder).

 

[ChristianIssues]

Did you notice Jesus is speaking to a group of people prior to the formation of the church.

Actually, the parable is not speaking to the crowd. In Luke 12:41, Peter asked, "Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?" Jesus' reply was in answer to Peter, and it was concerning those Jesus would put in charge of the church [Neither the crowd not the Pharisees were put in charge of the church]. The application is purely New Covenant, concerning those left in charge of the church.

Sorry, this is applicable to much more than just the Phillipians. Did the Church at Phillipi have an amended Gospel with different specifications than ours?

Sorry, but, to me, it clearly is referring to the Philippians and not to all churches. Note how the Galatians were chastised by Paul, as well as the Corinthians in 1 Cor. 3. Paul was not confident about the Galatians, quite the opposite as Gal. 5:4 tells us.

 

[ChristianIssues]

Chap. Bell

"Salvation loss is it possible?" No!
Luke 12:42-46, This servant was not a genuine believer...

The servant was unquestionably a genuine believer as Jesus said that the servant would be put in charge of all Jesus' possessions" if he remains faithful until He returns. If, instead, the servant went into sin then he would be condemned.

 

[ChristianIssues]

God is the Father of his children.
Tigers rip their prey into bit sized pieces
and feed them to their young.

The term "toothless tiger" is a figure of speech my friend. Do you think Jesus is a gate or a lion or a piece of bread etc or are they also figures of speech?

 

[fhansen]

Chap. Bell

"THERE is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not of the flesh, but after the Spirit." ROMAN 8:1

Yes, so long as one continues to walk after the Spirit. Because we know what the works of the flesh are, and how they distance one again from God.

 

[ChristianIssues]

It's a great parable! But it really has very little to do with the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. The main focus of the parable is to admonish people who think of themselves as servants of Christ to be ever ready for his return and not to backslide into sin.

I believe it has everything to do with the salvation of believers. I would not call "being assigned a place with unbelievers" as an admonishment. The fact that it says that the servant would be assigned a place with unbelievers tells us outright that he was initially a believer.

The parable is talking about just one servant who will either be rewarded or condemned depending upon his actions which the master, Jesus, is away. Even though it is only addressing one servant it has application with every believer.

 

[SeventyOne]

If you call being assigned a place with the unbelievers a reward then I would agree with you.

It all depends on how you read it. It reads he'll be appointed his portion with the unbelievers, or unfaithful.

Since it concerns rewards, as Jesus actually states the faithful servant shall receive their portion of food (v42) and set over the master's possessions (v43), we can see he's being rewarded for his faithfulness. The faithless servant remains a servant, but receives the same portion of the reward as those who are not servants, absolutely nothing. The portion of the faithless is zero, and the faithless servant can expect to receive the same.

Paul touched on the same idea in 1 Corinthians 3:14-15:

If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.​

Some receive a reward, others suffer loss.

 

[Seymore Bell]

How do you interpret Luke 12:42-46? To me, it clearly says that the servant can either be rewarded and "put him in charge of all his [Jesus] possessions" or assigned a place with the unbelievers.

The parable is, in effect, saying "Do this or else".

How do you interpret Luke 12:42-46? To me, it clearly says that the servant can either be rewarded and "put him in charge of all his [Jesus] possessions" or assigned a place with the unbelievers.

T23+he parable is, in effect, saying "Do this or else".

Chap. Bell

What I said was this servant

The servant was unquestionably a genuine believer as Jesus said that the servant would be put in charge of all Jesus' possessions" if he remains faithful until He returns. If, instead, the servant went into sin then he would be condemned.

Chap. Bell

This servant was a pseudo believer, and called the unfaithful servant. Who acknowledge Christ with his words, but his work showed otherwise. He was a wolf in sheep's clothing.
"Instead of feeding the people of GOD, he abuses them, robs them, and lives in self-indulgence."
This unfaithful servant chose evil over good, a decision that he must live with.

I must move on to other post.

 

[Haipule]

I certainly understand what you are saying but that doesn't negate the reality of the scriptures I posted nor the warnings they give. You certainly don't think God's word is empty, just a veiled threat do you?

He says over and again if we go on sinning we have no place in God or his kingdom. That is the element here. Salvation can be lost, not because God isn't strong enough to save us but because we can decide on our own initiative to leave him and do our own thing.

Perfect point: Kingdom

The Greek word is basileia, and refers to; rulership, not realm; dominion, not domain; it's more about the King and not the kingdom.

The Kingdom of Heaven(sky), Heavens(skies)(Matthew--Jesus uses both terms K of heaven = Dominion; K of God = Rulership)/God(all other writers) is a here and now life potential. Not "afterlife". It refers to a here and now potential authoritative position of being up, and not down being begotten of God as His son from-above(I'm talking about you). It's super, super easy to find: it is in you. If you don't believe me: then how many times have you looked?!

I know that's childish but:

and said, “Truly I(Jesus) say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Matt 18:3 NASB​

Unless it is referring to the literal sky, It is figurative in both the Hebrew and the Greek.

Case in point:

“From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. Matt 11:12 NASB​

Did some totally gnarly dudes go up to heaven where God's is and say to Him, "We're taking over!"

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Eph 6:12 NASB​

so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. Eph 3:10 NASB​

 

[ChristianIssues]

Chap. Bell

"THERE is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not of the flesh, but after the Spirit." ROMAN 8:1

Amen, there is no condemnation for those who walk after the Spirit but there is condemnation for those who walk after the flesh.

The parable states clearly that the servant can be rewarded or condemned depending on his walk.

 

[ChristianIssues]

Since it concerns rewards, as Jesus actually states the faithful servant shall receive their portion of food (v42) and set over the master's possessions (v43), we can see he's being rewarded for his faithfulness. The faithless servant remains a servant, but receives the same portion of the reward as those who are not servants, absolutely nothing. The portion of the faithless is zero, and the faithless servant can expect to receive the same.

The faithless servant does not receive nothing. The fact is, his reward is condemnation. Vs.45-46 say that if he goes into sin " he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers". This parable clearly tells us that those who are unfaithful, when Jesus returns, will be condemned.

Paul touched on the same idea in 1 Corinthians 3:14-15:

If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.​

Some receive a reward, others suffer loss.

This is a quote from 1 Cor. 3 and is a misinterpretation of that passage. The passage has nothing to do with sinning. It's commonly argued that Christians who unrepentantly sin will lose some rewards but not their salvation. However, this comes from a bad interpretation of 1 Cor. 3. The passage is talking about rewards and losses for building the church with various doctrines. If it was talking about sin then it would be saying -
I) Those who build the church with good, golden sins will be rewarded.
II) Those who build the church with not so good, straw sins will lose their rewards.

That of course is quite silly as sin does not build churches, it destroys them, and God does not reward anyone for sin. The passage will only make sense when interpreted as speaking about rewards, or loss of rewards, for the type of doctrine preached. It is not talking about sin but about working, building and labouring to build the church.

I have a short blog at the following link which shows that the passage is talking about building doctrinally on the foundation of Jesus and has nothing at all to do with sin and unrepentant living.
Losing Our Rewards – Eternal Security – Once Saved Always Saved | Christian Issues

 

[Hillsage]

Perfect point: Kingdom

The Greek word is basileia, and refers to; rulership, not realm; dominion, not domain; it's more about the King and not the kingdom.

The Kingdom of Heaven(sky), Heavens(skies)(Matthew--Jesus uses both terms K of heaven = Dominion; K of God = Rulership)/God(all other writers) is a here and now life potential. Not "afterlife". It refers to a here and now potential authoritative position of being up, and not down being begotten of God as His son from-above(I'm talking about you). It's super, super easy to find: it is in you. If you don't believe me: then how many times have you looked?!

I know that's childish but:

and said, “Truly I(Jesus) say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Matt 18:3 NASB​

Unless it is referring to the literal sky, It is figurative in both the Hebrew and the Greek.

Case in point:

“From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force. Matt 11:12 NASB​

Did some totally gnarly dudes go up to heaven where God's is and say to Him, "We're taking over!"

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Eph 6:12 NASB​

so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places. Eph 3:10 NASB​

like you I know Jesus as my savior. And I know that based upon my born again 'knowing' of Jesus, that heaven 'in the hereafter' is my destiny. And 'that destiny' is based upon His work and not mine. But even as you are trying unsuccessfully to convince the others, we both also know there is a soteria salvation here and now. And that salvation is not about obtaining a future 'quantity of time in life', it is about a obtaining a present 'quality of life in time' . And John 17:3 confirms it.

 

[ChristianIssues]

Chap. Bell
This servant was a pseudo believer, and called the unfaithful servant.

You missed the most important bit of the parable. There is ONLY ONE servant being spoken of. He will be rewarded or condemned depending on his actions.

If you want to understand this parable then you have to first see there is only one servant being spoken of.

 

[I'm_Sorry]

Hi,

Can someone make sense of this?

I was listening to Hebrews and my ears perked and was slightly overcome by fear when I heard this:

Hebrews 10:26

I'm under attack by the enemy regarding my sins post being born again and attacks regarding bearing no fruit.

I read this commentary and I would love some clarification from our brethren.

"
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
26. Compare on this and following verses, Heb 6:4, etc. There the warning was that if there be not diligence in progressing, a falling off will take place, and apostasy may ensue: here it is, that if there be lukewarmness in Christian communion, apostasy may ensue.

if we sin—Greek present participle: if we be found sinning, that is, not isolated acts, but a state of sin [Alford]. A violation not only of the law, but of the whole economy of the New Testament (Heb 10:28, 29).

wilfully—presumptuously, Greek "willingly." After receiving "full knowledge (so the Greek, compare 1Ti 2:4) of the truth," by having been "enlightened," and by having "tasted" a certain measure even of grace of "the Holy Ghost" (the Spirit of truth, Joh 14:17; and "the Spirit of grace," Heb 10:29): to fall away (as "sin" here means, Heb 3:12, 17; compare Heb 6:6) and apostatize (Heb 3:12) to Judaism or infidelity, is not a sin of ignorance, or error ("out of the way," the result) of infirmity, but a deliberate sinning against the Spirit (Heb 10:29; Heb 5:2): such sinning, where a consciousness of Gospel obligations not only was, but is present: a sinning presumptuously and preseveringly against Christ's redemption for us, and the Spirit of grace in us. "He only who stands high can fall low. A lively reference in the soul to what is good is necessary in order to be thoroughly wicked; hence, man can be more reprobate than the beasts, and the apostate angels than apostate man" [Tholuck].

remaineth no more sacrifice—For there is but ONE Sacrifice that can atone for sin; they, after having fully known that sacrifice, deliberately reject it."

Edit:

I came across this and felt peace.

I fear Him above all and I remember when He came to me as a straying sheep.

 

[SeventyOne]

The faithless servant does not receive nothing. The fact is, his reward is condemnation. Vs.45-46 say that if he goes into sin " he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers". This parable clearly tells us that those who are unfaithful, when Jesus returns, will be condemned.



This is a quote from 1 Cor. 3 and is a misinterpretation of that passage. The passage has nothing to do with sinning. It's commonly argued that Christians who unrepentantly sin will lose some rewards but not their salvation. However, this comes from a bad interpretation of 1 Cor. 3. The passage is talking about rewards and losses for building the church with various doctrines. If it was talking about sin then it would be saying -
I) Those who build the church with good, golden sins will be rewarded.
II) Those who build the church with not so good, straw sins will lose their rewards.

That of course is quite silly as sin does not build churches, it destroys them, and God does not reward anyone for sin. The passage will only make sense when interpreted as speaking about rewards, or loss of rewards, for the type of doctrine preached. It is not talking about sin but about working, building and labouring to build the church.

I have a short blog at the following link which shows that the passage is talking about building doctrinally on the foundation of Jesus and has nothing at all to do with sin and unrepentant living.
Losing Our Rewards – Eternal Security – Once Saved Always Saved | Christian Issues

The passage in 1 Cor 3 talks about works, just like the parable you cited in the OP, and both deal with rewards for works. Don't obfuscate the issue by trying to change the subject. You're trying to add sin into the parable to make it say what you want it to say, but it's mentioned nowhere. The topic is rewards.

If you want the scripture to be your own personal pile of play-doh to bend it into any shape you desire, then why are you asking for opinions about it? Just make believe it says whatever you want it to say and move on.

 

[Haipule]

like you I know Jesus as my savior. And I know that based upon my born again 'knowing' of Jesus, that heaven 'in the hereafter' is my destiny. And 'that destiny' is based upon His work and not mine. But even as you are trying unsuccessfully to convince the others, we both also know there is a soteria salvation here and now. And that salvation is not about obtaining a future 'quantity of time in life', it is about a obtaining a present 'quality of life in time' . And John 17:3 confirms it.

AmEn! You a very wise! I should learn to use less words!

 

[stuart lawrence]

Hi,

Can someone make sense of this?

I was listening to Hebrews and my ears perked and was slightly overcome by fear when I heard this:

Hebrews 10:26

I'm under attack by the enemy regarding my sins post being born again and attacks regarding bearing no fruit.

I read this commentary and I would love some clarification from our brethren.

"
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
26. Compare on this and following verses, Heb 6:4, etc. There the warning was that if there be not diligence in progressing, a falling off will take place, and apostasy may ensue: here it is, that if there be lukewarmness in Christian communion, apostasy may ensue.

if we sin—Greek present participle: if we be found sinning, that is, not isolated acts, but a state of sin [Alford]. A violation not only of the law, but of the whole economy of the New Testament (Heb 10:28, 29).

wilfully—presumptuously, Greek "willingly." After receiving "full knowledge (so the Greek, compare 1Ti 2:4) of the truth," by having been "enlightened," and by having "tasted" a certain measure even of grace of "the Holy Ghost" (the Spirit of truth, Joh 14:17; and "the Spirit of grace," Heb 10:29): to fall away (as "sin" here means, Heb 3:12, 17; compare Heb 6:6) and apostatize (Heb 3:12) to Judaism or infidelity, is not a sin of ignorance, or error ("out of the way," the result) of infirmity, but a deliberate sinning against the Spirit (Heb 10:29; Heb 5:2): such sinning, where a consciousness of Gospel obligations not only was, but is present: a sinning presumptuously and preseveringly against Christ's redemption for us, and the Spirit of grace in us. "He only who stands high can fall low. A lively reference in the soul to what is good is necessary in order to be thoroughly wicked; hence, man can be more reprobate than the beasts, and the apostate angels than apostate man" [Tholuck].

remaineth no more sacrifice—For there is but ONE Sacrifice that can atone for sin; they, after having fully known that sacrifice, deliberately reject it."

Edit:

I came across this and felt peace.

I fear Him above all and I remember when He came to me as a straying sheep.

As you say, it refers only to people who know the truth. What is the truth?

Sin is the transgression of the law
1john3:4

Therefore if you observe the law you do not commit sin, if you fail to observe the law you do commit sin:

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin
Rom3:20

The Christian has to firstly know they are righteous in God's sight by faith in Christ, apart from observing the law. If they don't know that, if they fear their imperfections/ sin will condemn them/ make them unrighteous before God, they don't know the truth do they. If anyone believes they must strive to defeat their sin in order to be righteous before God they do not know the truth. Therefore 10:26 cannot apply to them.

And the verse is referring to a continuous sinfull lifestyle as a choice. Otherwise all Christians are condemned, for none are perfect in the flesh

 

[I'm_Sorry]

As you say, it refers only to people who know the truth. What is the truth?

Sin is the transgression of the law
1john3:4

Therefore if you observe the law you do not commit sin, if you fail to observe the law you do commit sin:

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law, rather through the law we become conscious of sin
Rom3:20

The Christian has to firstly know they are righteous in God's sight by faith in Christ, not observing the law. If they don't know that, if they fear their imperfections/ sin can condemn them/ make them unrighteous before God, they don't know the truth do they. If anyone believes they must strive to death their sin in order to be righteous before God they do not k now the truth. Therefore 10:26 cannot apply to them.

And the verse is referring to a continuous sinfull lifestyle as a choice. Otherwise all Christians are condemned, for none are perfect in the flesh

Hi Brother,

Ananias and his wife, Acts 5:5

They had the Holy Spirit and were droped dead for lying to the Holy Spirit.

Is this the result of Hebrews 10:26?

And

"And the verse is referring to a continuous sinfull lifestyle as a choice. Otherwise all Christians are condemned, for none are perfect in the flesh"

Does this mean they don't adhere to Jesus when he leaves the flock to collect the stray?

Is it like the stray sheep seeing Jesus coming and running away?

Doesn't Jesus lose none that the Father has given Him?

 

[stuart lawrence]

Hi Brother,

Ananias and his wife, Acts 5:5

They had the Holy Spirit and were droped dead for lying to the Holy Spirit.

Is this the result of Hebrews 10:26?

And

"And the verse is referring to a continuous sinfull lifestyle as a choice. Otherwise all Christians are condemned, for none are perfect in the flesh"

Does this mean they don't adhere to Jesus when he leaves the flock to collect the stray?

Is it like the stray sheep seeing Jesus coming and running away?

Doesn't Jesus lose none that the Father has given Him?

Are you perfect in the flesh, sinless?

If not, are you condemned according to heb10:26?

Do you agree sin is the transgression of the law?
Do you disagree that if you fail to observe the law you commit sin?
Do you disagree with Paul in that no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by observing the law?

Please address the points brother, before you ask questions

 

[stuart lawrence]

Hi Brother,

Ananias and his wife, Acts 5:5

They had the Holy Spirit and were droped dead for lying to the Holy Spirit.

Is this the result of Hebrews 10:26?

And

"And the verse is referring to a continuous sinfull lifestyle as a choice. Otherwise all Christians are condemned, for none are perfect in the flesh"

Does this mean they don't adhere to Jesus when he leaves the flock to collect the stray?

Is it like the stray sheep seeing Jesus coming and running away?

Doesn't Jesus lose none that the Father has given Him?

BTW
Concerning Ananias and Sapphira. How many Christians do you know who drop dead as soon as they commit a sin?
Or specifically. How many Christians do you know who immediately drop dead if they tell a lie?