Salvation loss. Is it possible?

[WilliamBo]

Hello Gracia,
The parable in Luke 12:42-46 is telling us that we must remain faithful to Jesus otherwise we will be condemned. Being faithful is nothing more than following the leading of the Holy Spirit and repenting of any sin we may commit.

It is true that a saved person will do good works. James said that if a Christian does not do good works then he has a dead faith. I have a little blog on the subject of Faith and Works at
Faith and Works | Christian Issues

God bless,
Mick

Jesus said "turn back to your first love
or i will remove your lampstand" in Revelation, which sounds like what we would call "backslidden" Christians.

My opinion is the "lampstand" is their place in the Body of Christ, or their salvation

 

[disciple1]

I believe it is possible for a heaven bound Christian to end up condemned. There are many passages describing this but I believe the parable in Luke 12:42-46 is one of the clearest.

In this parable, the word "manager" is singular, showing that there is only one faithful and wise manager being spoken of. Looking at the verses, we have:

a) V.42 tells us of a faithful and wise manager (obviously a saved man) who is put in charge while the master (Jesus) is away.

b) Vs. 43-44 say that the servant will be rewarded and put in charge of all the master's possessions if the master returns and finds that the servant has remained faithful.

c) Vs. 45-46 then tells us that the same servant will be condemned and assigned a place with the unbelievers (in hell) if the master returns and finds that he is sinning and mistreating the other servants etc.

To say that the servant will be assigned a place with unbelievers makes it obvious that he was a believer initially.

To me, this is one of several parables and passages which clearly show that a Christian can be rewarded or condemned, depending on his actions.

Loss of salvation is a vitally important issue.

What do you think of this parable?

It's not about sin, it's about love.
1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
Love covers a great many sins.
Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.

 

[rockytopva]

23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,

24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. - Luke 13

I would make it a life long task to press towards the strait gate, and leave the John Calvin teachings alone...

 

[RC1970]

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand." ~ John 10:27-29

 

[fhansen]

I believe it is possible for a heaven bound Christian to end up condemned. There are many passages describing this but I believe the parable in Luke 12:42-46 is one of the clearest.

In this parable, the word "manager" is singular, showing that there is only one faithful and wise manager being spoken of. Looking at the verses, we have:

a) V.42 tells us of a faithful and wise manager (obviously a saved man) who is put in charge while the master (Jesus) is away.

b) Vs. 43-44 say that the servant will be rewarded and put in charge of all the master's possessions if the master returns and finds that the servant has remained faithful.

c) Vs. 45-46 then tells us that the same servant will be condemned and assigned a place with the unbelievers (in hell) if the master returns and finds that he is sinning and mistreating the other servants etc.

To say that the servant will be assigned a place with unbelievers makes it obvious that he was a believer initially.

To me, this is one of several parables and passages which clearly show that a Christian can be rewarded or condemned, depending on his actions.

Loss of salvation is a vitally important issue.

What do you think of this parable?

Similarly a servant lost place in the kingdom at the end of the Parable of the Talents, where he had been given "talents" to invest but refused to. Other NT passages refer to branches grafted in but later cut off, or poor soil where the seed once sprouted but later withered and died, or believers who've once tasted of the heavenly gift but turned back to sin, and away from God.

IMO, we shouldn't think of salvation as strictly a one-time event but rather as a process, that we're to participate in (investing our talents, our gifts of grace), led by a God who is infinitely kind and fair and just and good and trustworthy, who wants none to perish, but who will be the final judge in the end. He, alone, knows with 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life.

 

[aiki]

Luke 12:42-48
42 And the Lord said, "Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season?
43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has.
45 But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk,
46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

Compare this passage to its parallel in the Gospel of Matthew:

Matthew 24:45-51 (NKJV)
45 "Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.
47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods.
48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,'
49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,
50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,
51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

As I look at the two passages together I see that, rather than teaching a saved-and-lost doctrine, Jesus is pointing to those "tares" (Matt. 13:24-30) in the Church who appear outwardly to be members of the family of God, "good and faithful servants," but who are in secret and in reality "evil servants" who may be revealed by their abuse of those within the Church. This is reinforced by Luke 12:48 which speaks of servants who didn't know the will of the master. How could a servant be a servant of his master while at the same time ignorant of his will? This seems an obvious impossibility to me. What is the servant serving, fundamentally, if not the will of his master? If, though, by "servant" Jesus merely means, "one under the universal sovereign authority of God" the term "servant" encompasses both saved and lost and the problem of a servant not knowing his master's will dissolves; for the will of God is unknown to the majority of the lost who live, nonetheless, under His sovereign authority. This, it seems to me, accords well with Matthew's description, not of a good and faithful servant - a genuine child of God - turned bad, but of a servant who is evil right off the bat and acts consistently with this evil - and thus unregenerate - disposition to his final destruction.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

To me, this is one of several parables and passages which clearly show that a Christian can be rewarded or condemned, depending on his actions.

Loss of salvation is a vitally important issue.

What do you think of this parable?

I agree that a person can lose the faith. I disagree that a person can lose salvation. If a man believes, and then he disbelieves, then was he ever saved? What from? It's clear that he was not saved after he lost the faith. No identifiable threat seems to have been averted while he believed, because Hell doesn't even come until later. Hence, salvation is what happens when we don't go to Hell, and I do believe that once saved, we are always saved.

Take the parable of the sower. A saved person is not represented by the seeds that sprouted. The sprouts are the people that initially believe. Most of them eventually lose the faith. The saved person is the one in the good soil, and that never changes. The saved seed never loses its salvation.

In the parable you mention, the first thing lost was faith: he lost faith in the return of his master. The next thing that he lost was the good behavior: he started mistreating people because of what he believed. The last thing that he lost was his life: the master came home and killed him because of what he did.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Hello Gracia,
The parable in Luke 12:42-46 is telling us that we must remain faithful to Jesus otherwise we will be condemned.

God bless,
Mick

We must always read the Bible as a cohesive whole:

If we disown him
He will also disown us
If we are faithless
He remains faithful
For he cannot disown himself
2tim2:12&13

 

[CrystalDragon]

Romans 8.1 speaks of those who are not under condemnation, and it describes their walk.

I don't see someone who goes to hell as a believer, as ever having been a believer.

So you don't think former believers who became atheists go to hell? Thanks you. I don't think it's right or kind of loving for anyone to go to hell, but that's a topic for another thread.

 

[Oldmantook]

Romans 8.1 speaks of those who are not under condemnation, and it describes their walk.

Rom 8:1 is often used as a proof-text saying that Christians are under no condemnation. However, depending on which manuscript text is used, some Bible translations such as the NKJV state this: "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit." The walk described in this verse references believers who do not walk according to the flesh. Therefore only believers who do not walk according to the flesh are not condemned. This is confirmed in v.4 - that "the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

I don't see someone who goes to hell as a believer, as ever having been a believer.

Later on we see in the same chapter this warning from Paul addressed to the believers in Rome: "Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live" (Rom 8:12-13).
These verses makes it clear that Paul is warning believers - not unbelievers. Only believers have the choice IF to live according to their flesh or IF to live according to the Spirit. Unbelievers have no such choice and can only live according to their flesh. Paul is referring to spiritual death here; not physical death, as everyone physically dies irrespective of the kind of life they live. Therefore it is possible for a believer to go to hell if he/she lives in habitual sin which if unrepented of leads to spiritual death.

 

[GingerBeer]

Salvation loss. Is it possible?
A person can lose their faith. A person can become apostate. A person can live an immoral life and be expelled from the church. And since no one is saved until the last judgement it appears as if people can think that they are saved and not be.

 

[Haipule]

The parable in Luke 15:4-7 says (about the lost sheep) "when he finds it" but in Matt. 18:12-24 it says, "if he finds it" so it is IF and WHEN the sheep is found. That is not ironclad proof that salvation can't be lost.

How do you interpret the parable mentioned in this OP?

God bless,
Mick

G'day Mick (I once lived in Colloroy Plateau)

I alluded to the fact, in my post, that I do not believe in post-reform "salvation". Ask any Catholic: the English bible is a Protestant book. It was translated to support reform viewpoint.

As I said, "sOtEria is a very general word". The reformers took this very general word and gave it a specific meaning complete with a "Gospel" of your "Salvation". The writers of Scripture intent was always the general idea of deliverance unto God's promised zOE-life right, here, right now. In the life of God's promise we all daily need sOtEria: rescue, deliverance, preservation, kept safe and sound, made whole, etc, etc.

The idea given us by the writers in the original language, is sheep and Shepherd, trustworthy sheep vs. untrustworthy sheep and untrustworthy goats in our day to day life's, not "believer" vs. "unbeliever".

Through your theology you are giving Jesus' word and "eternal" post-reform significance He did not intend. But, to show you that, I would have to completely dismantle your theology. I don't think either one of us wants to do that.

The Catholic pre-reform idea was a complete mess of goofy ideas to support stupid ideas and "Justification" using the Latin Vulgate.

I look at, and translate the koinE Greek pre-denominationally without post-denominational theologically prescribed eyeglass on and kiss the writers lips so as to have a pure communication.

When I did that I found life not "Salvation".

Whenever you read Jesus' word "Believe in me" in the English, it's always a present participle in Greek which means: keep on trusting in Me. Our deliverance then is 24/7, not a one-shot decision.

My point is; you can't lose your "salvation" because you never had, nor needed it--just Jesus!

 

[Oldmantook]

I believe it is possible for a heaven bound Christian to end up condemned. There are many passages describing this but I believe the parable in Luke 12:42-46 is one of the clearest.

In this parable, the word "manager" is singular, showing that there is only one faithful and wise manager being spoken of. Looking at the verses, we have:

a) V.42 tells us of a faithful and wise manager (obviously a saved man) who is put in charge while the master (Jesus) is away.

b) Vs. 43-44 say that the servant will be rewarded and put in charge of all the master's possessions if the master returns and finds that the servant has remained faithful.

c) Vs. 45-46 then tells us that the same servant will be condemned and assigned a place with the unbelievers (in hell) if the master returns and finds that he is sinning and mistreating the other servants etc.

To say that the servant will be assigned a place with unbelievers makes it obvious that he was a believer initially.

To me, this is one of several parables and passages which clearly show that a Christian can be rewarded or condemned, depending on his actions.

Loss of salvation is a vitally important issue.

What do you think of this parable?

You are correct in your interpretation of the passage as Jesus consistently taught that believers can lose their salvation. The use of parables was Jesus' main teaching tool, yet like the Pharisees in Jesus' day, today we have many who fail to grasp what Jesus taught.

Other parables where Jesus taught the loss of eternal life include the trilogy of parables in Luke 15. In the parable of the lost sheep. The one lost sheep who strayed references a believer who strays because that one sheep originally belonged to the flock of "righteous persons who do not need to repent" (Lk 15:7). The lost sheep is referred to as a "sinner" (unbeliever) vs. "righteous person" (believer). The one sheep wandered away from the faith and was lost. However, the sheep/sinner repented and was found resulting in joy in heaven. Similarly in the parable of the lost coin, the coin represents a sinner who repents (v.10). Like the sheep, the coin/sinner belonged to its owner (God) but became lost (spiritual death). Upon repentance, the coin/sinner was found (spiritual life).

Finally, in the parable of the prodigal son Jesus repeats himself twice in this story (Lk 15:24,32) and when Jesus repeats himself we know that he is emphasizing an important point. Moreover, the parable ends with v.32 so this concluding verse may even represent the main point of Jesus' teaching in this parable. In these two verses Jesus stated: "my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found." The pertinent question is how can someone be made alive AGAIN? When an unbeliever becomes saved, he is made alive in Christ (first time). How then does one become alive again (second time)? The only possible way to be made alive again is for a believer to become a lost sinner (as in the case with the lost sheep and coin) but upon repentance (as in the case with the lost sheep and coin) is reunited with the Father. The prodigal son was spiritually alive when he abided in his father's house but became spiritually lost/dead when he spent his inheritance on sinful living. He later repented and turned away from his lifestyle seeking his father's forgiveness. As a result he was forgiven by the father and made ALIVE AGAIN; restored to an abiding relationship with his father. So it is with Christians as we have a choice whether to abide in obedience to the Father, or like the prodigal, disobey and go our own way. The way of habitual sin leads to spiritual death. However, if we truly repent and turn away from sin, we are made alive again.

 

[ChristianIssues]

Therefore It's my belief that a person who is truly saved cannot end up in Hell.

If you look carefully at the parable in Luke 12:42-46 you will see that the servant can be either rewarded or condemned depending upon his actions.

 

[ChristianIssues]

An obedient walk is a characteristic of those who truly believe, not of those who prove - like the person in parable - that they don't really believe and trust at all

The servant in the parable was obviously saved as Jesus put him in charge while away and said He would put him in charge of all his possessions if He returned and found the servant had remained faithful.

 

[ChristianIssues]

"that He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus".

If you check out the parable you will see that there are two possible results for the servant. Reward or condemnation, depending on his actions.

Another point is that your quote of Phil 1:6 is applicable to the Phillipians as the previous verse makes obvious. Paul is confident because they had continued in the gospel. Confidence is not assurance.

 

[stuart lawrence]

You are correct in your interpretation of the passage as Jesus consistently taught that believers can lose their salvation. The use of parables was Jesus' main teaching tool, yet like the Pharisees in Jesus' day, today we have many who fail to grasp what Jesus taught.

Other parables where Jesus taught the loss of eternal life include the trilogy of parables in Luke 15. In the parable of the lost sheep. The one lost sheep who strayed references a believer who strays because that one sheep originally belonged to the flock of "righteous persons who do not need to repent" (Lk 15:7). The lost sheep is referred to as a "sinner" (unbeliever) vs. "righteous person" (believer). The one sheep wandered away from the faith and was lost. However, the sheep/sinner repented and was found resulting in joy in heaven. Similarly in the parable of the lost coin, the coin represents a sinner who repents (v.10). Like the sheep, the coin/sinner belonged to its owner (God) but became lost (spiritual death). Upon repentance, the coin/sinner was found (spiritual life).

Finally, in the parable of the prodigal son Jesus repeats himself twice in this story (Lk 15:24,32) and when Jesus repeats himself we know that he is emphasizing an important point. Moreover, the parable ends with v.32 so this concluding verse may even represent the main point of Jesus' teaching in this parable. In these two verses Jesus stated: "my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found." The pertinent question is how can someone be made alive AGAIN? When an unbeliever becomes saved, he is made alive in Christ (first time). How then does one become alive again (second time)? The only possible way to be made alive again is for a believer to become a lost sinner (as in the case with the lost sheep and coin) but upon repentance (as in the case with the lost sheep and coin) is reunited with the Father. The prodigal son was spiritually alive when he abided in his father's house but became spiritually lost/dead when he spent his inheritance on sinful living. He later repented and turned away from his lifestyle seeking his father's forgiveness. As a result he was forgiven by the father and made ALIVE AGAIN; restored to an abiding relationship with his father. So it is with Christians as we have a choice whether to abide in obedience to the Father, or like the prodigal, disobey and go our own way. The way of habitual sin leads to spiritual death. However, if we truly repent and turn away from sin, we are made alive again.

You are correct in your interpretation of the passage as Jesus consistently taught that believers can lose their salvation. The use of parables was Jesus' main teaching tool, yet like the Pharisees in Jesus' day, today we have many who fail to grasp what Jesus taught.

Other parables where Jesus taught the loss of eternal life include the trilogy of parables in Luke 15. In the parable of the lost sheep. The one lost sheep who strayed references a believer who strays because that one sheep originally belonged to the flock of "righteous persons who do not need to repent" (Lk 15:7). The lost sheep is referred to as a "sinner" (unbeliever) vs. "righteous person" (believer). The one sheep wandered away from the faith and was lost. However, the sheep/sinner repented and was found resulting in joy in heaven. Similarly in the parable of the lost coin, the coin represents a sinner who repents (v.10). Like the sheep, the coin/sinner belonged to its owner (God) but became lost (spiritual death). Upon repentance, the coin/sinner was found (spiritual life).

Finally, in the parable of the prodigal son Jesus repeats himself twice in this story (Lk 15:24,32) and when Jesus repeats himself we know that he is emphasizing an important point. Moreover, the parable ends with v.32 so this concluding verse may even represent the main point of Jesus' teaching in this parable. In these two verses Jesus stated: "my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found." The pertinent question is how can someone be made alive AGAIN? When an unbeliever becomes saved, he is made alive in Christ (first time). How then does one become alive again (second time)? The only possible way to be made alive again is for a believer to become a lost sinner (as in the case with the lost sheep and coin) but upon repentance (as in the case with the lost sheep and coin) is reunited with the Father. The prodigal son was spiritually alive when he abided in his father's house but became spiritually lost/dead when he spent his inheritance on sinful living. He later repented and turned away from his lifestyle seeking his father's forgiveness. As a result he was forgiven by the father and made ALIVE AGAIN; restored to an abiding relationship with his father. So it is with Christians as we have a choice whether to abide in obedience to the Father, or like the prodigal, disobey and go our own way. The way of habitual sin leads to spiritual death. However, if we truly repent and turn away from sin, we are made alive again.

In the parable of the lost sheep, the sheep didn't find its own way back to the fold did it. The shepherd went out and found the one that was lost, put it on his shoulders and returned it to the fold.

 

[ChristianIssues]

It's not about sin, it's about love.

God's Grace is certainly about love but the parable is about God's Justice, His rewards or condemnation.

 

[woobadooba]

Just as it is possible for a person to believe in God, it is possible for the same to reject God. Even Paul spoke of some who would depart from the faith in the last days (1 Tim. 4:1). Moreover, Jesus said the love of many would grow cold (Matt. 24:12). One cannot depart from something he or she never had, nor can love grow cold if it was never hot.

 

[ChristianIssues]

IMO, we shouldn't think of salvation as strictly a one-time event but rather as a process, that we're to participate in (investing our talents, our gifts of grace), led by a God who is infinitely kind and fair and just and good and trustworthy, who wants none to perish, but who will be the final judge in the end. He, alone, knows with 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life.

Amen my friend.