Salvation loss. Is it possible?

[stuart lawrence]

We seem to be reading different Bibles. In what verse does Jesus tell them to believe in Him?


So Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to Judas even though he wasn't saved? (Matt. 10:20 when Jesus sent out the twelve)


I'm a standard Protestant I guess, non Charismatic. I go to a Salvation Army church in the evening and a Baptist church in the morning.

One thing I forgot to say is that in Luke 11:32, the Ninevites repented at Jonah's teaching ... does repent mean "believing in Jesus" in this verse?

Have to go to bed now.

In regard to matt10:20. This comes after Jesus says the disciples will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and the gentiles. The disciples would be arrested and flogged. All this happened after Pentecost. Judas was not then one of the twelve.
Concerning Christ sending the disciples out to heal the sick etc. Does this prove Judas was in a saved state at that time?
Many will say to me on that day: lord, lord did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? Then I will tell them plainly: I NEVER knew you. Away from me you evildoers
Matt7:22&23

 

[Dan61861]

No one is saying we don't confess our sins, or turn from them. When we sin it is alot deeper than most realize.

God says...thou shalt not kill.
I kill a man. My sin of killing is against that man. God holds me to that sin.
My sin a against God is unbelief.
I didn't believe His Word, thou shalt not kill.
I didn't believe God made him in His image.
I didn't believe God should have given the man life.
I didn't believe God gives life and takes life...I took it into my own hands.
I didn't believe God could have mercy on this man, I ended his life and any chance of mercy.
I could go on.

When we sin, we are guilty of unbelief in God.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[Dan61861]

We seem to be reading different Bibles. In what verse does Jesus tell them to believe in Him?


So Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to Judas even though he wasn't saved? (Matt. 10:20 when Jesus sent out the twelve)


I'm a standard Protestant I guess, non Charismatic. I go to a Salvation Army church in the evening and a Baptist church in the morning.

One thing I forgot to say is that in Luke 11:32, the Ninevites repented at Jonah's teaching ... does repent mean "believing in Jesus" in this verse?

Have to go to bed now.

Point 1...the gospel's are filled with Christ telling them, showing them who He is.

Point 2...before the cross, the Holy Spirit came and went. It is after the cross that He abides in a believer.

Point 3...it sure does.. Jonah 3:5 so the people of Nineveh believed God.

In Christ
Daniel

 

[ladodgers6]

I may have missed something in what you have said as I believe we can lose our salvation, as Luke 12:42-46 says, but you disagree.

I'm just sharing. If you feel this way, then you never understood what Christ actually accomplished on the Cross. Christ secured our Salvation at the Cross. I quoted two passages, that you did not address. I am hoping you do. Here they are:

Jesus said, John 6:37All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

2 Cor. 1:21And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Here again God's Promise..."I WILL DO"!!! Notice that it is a guarantee and He puts His Seal on us, and puts His Spirit in our hearts. Sound familiar; Ezekiel 36.

 

[JIMINZ]

I believe it is possible for a heaven bound Christian to end up condemned. There are many passages describing this but I believe the parable in Luke 12:42-46 is one of the clearest.

In this parable, the word "manager" is singular, showing that there is only one faithful and wise manager being spoken of. Looking at the verses, we have:

a) V.42 tells us of a faithful and wise manager (obviously a saved man) who is put in charge while the master (Jesus) is away.

b) Vs. 43-44 say that the servant will be rewarded and put in charge of all the master's possessions if the master returns and finds that the servant has remained faithful.

c) Vs. 45-46 then tells us that the same servant will be condemned and assigned a place with the unbelievers (in hell) if the master returns and finds that he is sinning and mistreating the other servants etc.

To say that the servant will be assigned a place with unbelievers makes it obvious that he was a believer initially.

To me, this is one of several parables and passages which clearly show that a Christian can be rewarded or condemned, depending on his actions.

Loss of salvation is a vitally important issue.

What do you think of this parable?

I will not confuse the issue with my own narrative, or Interpretation, allowing Scripture itself to speak.

Rom. 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Rom.
6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom. 6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom. 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom.7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Rom. 8:9,10
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10) And if Christ be in you, (THE BODY IS DEAD) because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Gal.2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal. 5:24
And they that are Christ's have (CRUCIFIED THE FLESH) with the affections and lusts.


So you see, the Christian is.
1) Dead to the Law
2) Dead to Sin
3) Dead to the Flesh

1Jn. 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom. 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

1Jn. 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Jn. 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Rom 8:3,4
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


1Jn 3:8-10
8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1Jn 3:20,21
20) For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21) Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

Psa 32:1,2
1) A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2) Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Rom. 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The question then remains:
If a Christian being Dead to the Law, Dead to the Flesh, and Dead to sin, how then does the Christian sin?

Be Blessed

 

[Hillsage]

Jesus would not choose an unsaved man to fulfill OT prophecy?

OK, I'll bite on this. I thought Jesus chose 12 unsaved men? Am I missing something?

 

[stuart lawrence]

OK, I'll bite on this. I thought Jesus chose 12 unsaved men? Am I missing something?

Please read the last paragraph of post 227, that is what I was responding to.
He may have meant, Jesus would not choose someone who would remain in an unsaved state throughout his time on earth.
My sincere apologies, for not more fully elaborating on my response

 

[Romansthruphilemon]

Luke 12:42-46 is not doctrine specifically to us, the same as John 5:28, 29 is not doctrine specifically to us. Jesus' earthly ministry (Mathew, Mark, Luke and John) was to the house of Israel. When you try to apply their doctrine to us today you are not rightly dividing the word.

John 5:28, 29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Compare John 5:28, 29 (Israel's doctrine) to 2 Corinthians 5:19 (our doctrine, after the cross) and it is obvious that they are different and there is no way they can both apply to us because they are in complete opposition.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

John 5:29 - trespasses punished
2 Corinthians 5:19 - trespasses not punished

 

[Romansthruphilemon]

 

[Romansthruphilemon]

 

[Romansthruphilemon]

 

[stuart lawrence]

Luke 12:42-46 is not doctrine specifically to us, the same as John 5:28, 29 is not doctrine specifically to us. Jesus' earthly ministry (Mathew, Mark, Luke and John) was to the house of Israel. When you try to apply their doctrine to us today you are not rightly dividing the word.

John 5:28, 29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Compare John 5:28, 29 (Israel's doctrine) to 2 Corinthians 5:19 (our doctrine, after the cross) and it is obvious that they are different and there is no way they can both apply to us because they are in complete opposition.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

John 5:29 - trespasses punished
2 Corinthians 5:19 - trespasses not punished

I love ya name. My guess is you understand Romans through Philemon. many who don't, tend to quote matthewthrujohnplusjames

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I think that you are right. Parables like this lead me to begin to question the main theological crux of the Reformation.

Good... keep seeking the truth, never stop.

Because someone, because many, were seeking the truth, or even just willing for the truth,
they were set free from darkness
- unexpectedly! (many did not seek to be free from darkness, as they did not know they should, and were told otherwise all their lives).

This is still absolutely truth, today.

 

[Hillsage]

Please read the last paragraph of post 227, that is what I was responding to.
He may have meant, Jesus would not choose someone who would remain in an unsaved state throughout his time on earth.
My sincere apologies, for not more fully elaborating on my response

No apology necessary bro, I was just picking on ya. I think we both know that there was no 'salvation' like we think of salvation today, until after the cross. It just wasn't available....ever....before 'that day'.

 

[stuart lawrence]

No apology necessary bro, I was just picking on ya. I think we both know that there was no 'salvation' like we think of salvation today, until after the cross. It just wasn't available....ever....before 'that day'.

I don't believe anyone was truly justified until Christ died at Calvary.

 

[ChristianIssues]

In regard to matt10:20.

I think we are getting mixed up. Matt. 10:20 has nothing to do with the parable in Luke 12:42-46 which is the point of discussion in this forum.

 

[ChristianIssues]

Jesus said, John 6:37All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

I thought I had replied to those verses. v.39 does say that Jesus will lose none but in John 17:12 Jesus said, "None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction." Judas was one who had been given but he was lost.

2 Cor. 1:21And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, 22and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.

Here again God's Promise..."I WILL DO"!!! Notice that it is a guarantee and He puts His Seal on us, and puts His Spirit in our hearts. Sound familiar; Ezekiel 36.

The Spirit certainly is our guarantee that we are saved. We could not know otherwise but we can grieve the Spirit (Eph. 4:30) and lose our salvation. I have a blog at the following link that explains this -
Do Not Grieve The Spirit – Eternal Security – Once Saved Always Saved | Christian Issues

 

[ChristianIssues]

The question then remains:
If a Christian being Dead to the Law, Dead to the Flesh, and Dead to sin, how then does the Christian sin?

Be Blessed

How does a Christian sin? Goodness me my friend, you should know from your own experience! But, to help, let's look at how James explains it -

Jas 1:14-15: "...each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death."

If you believe you are sinless then these verses won't apply to you.

 

[stuart lawrence]

I will not confuse the issue with my own narrative, or Interpretation, allowing Scripture itself to speak.

Rom. 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Gal. 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Rom.
6:2
How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom. 6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom. 6:11
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom.7:4
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

Rom. 8:9,10
9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10) And if Christ be in you, (THE BODY IS DEAD) because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Gal.2:19
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal. 5:24
And they that are Christ's have (CRUCIFIED THE FLESH) with the affections and lusts.


So you see, the Christian is.
1) Dead to the Law
2) Dead to Sin
3) Dead to the Flesh

1Jn. 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Rom. 4:15
Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

1Jn. 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Jn. 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Rom 8:3,4
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh,God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


1Jn 3:8-10
8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1Jn 3:20,21
20) For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21) Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

Psa 32:1,2
1) A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
2) Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Rom. 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

The question then remains:
If a Christian being Dead to the Law, Dead to the Flesh, and Dead to sin, how then does the Christian sin?

Be Blessed

As you say, sin is the transgression of the law. The believer is dead to a law of righteousness, the law itself did not get abolished. So the Christian commits sin by transgressing the law.

Count yourself as dead to sin/ the flesh.

As all Christians at times follow after the flesh, for none are perfect, we need to understand what is meant.
Count yourself as dead to the flesh/ sin in regard to not seeking to serve it/ follow after it

 

[ladodgers6]

Yes, I know where you stand. And you know where I stand. God did not save us, and leave us stranded halfway. I showed you a passage where Christ said,

John 6:37All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

I don't want to be redundant here. But can you expound on these passages. People who believe they can lose their salvation, then HAVE TO been consistent, and say that Christ was not sufficient to save anyone; follow? This statement that Christ makes above is He mission to accomplished His Father's will. And what is His Father's will?

Here is another passage in John 4:31Meanwhile the disciples were urging him, saying, “Rabbi, eat.” 32But he said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” 33So the disciples said to one another, “Has anyone brought him something to eat?” 34Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of him who sent me and to accomplish his work.

Christ secures our Salvation at the Cross. And nobody can undo what Christ finished at the Cross! BTW, Christ's final words on the Cross before He died, was, "IT IS FINISHED"! Glorious good news for the ungodly!

Here is the Scriptures to read:

Jesus' words, "It is finished," appears only twice in the New Testament--John 19:28 and John 19:30.

"After this, Jesus, knowing that all was now finished, said (to fulfill the Scripture), 'I thirst.' A jar full of sour wine stood there, so they put a sponge full of the sour wine on a hyssop branch and held it to his mouth. When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, 'It is finished,' and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit." (John 19:28-30, emphasis added).

Salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9)