Salvation/Justification Questions of Christian Denominations

Duvduv

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
593
83
67
New York State
✟30,890.00
Country
United States
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Greetings everyone. I am interested in understanding an explanation of how those denominations that accept eternal salvation through one act of faith in Jesus (such as Baptists) address the issue of people who do not do so but whose lives are moral. Is it claimed that they are nonetheless not justified or saved, and are headed for condemnation, whereas a person who accepted salvation once and spent his life in sin goes to heaven (even if he is punished/chastised per Hebrews for his sins without being condemned)?

Second, how were human beings justified and saved before Jesus appeared on the scene? This would even include the vast majority of mankind in the immediate period and centuries after his crucifixion. None of these people, whether Jews or gentiles, had any salvation because either they knew nothing of Jesus, or because he did not yet appear, or because they followed the "wrong" Christian teachings? The New Testament itself says that there would be many false gospels, so what happens to all the people who sincerely followed these teachings believing they were properly saved? We all know that different denominations have different opinions about salvation and justification. So how would the vast majority of self-identified Christians be saved if they are following false gospels but sincerely believe they are doing the right thing?

Finally, traditional Christian doctrine has always blamed "the Jews" for the death of Jesus. But how can this be true since it is only by virtue of his death on the cross and subsequent resurrection that salvation could have ever been introduced into the world in the 1st century? One should argue the contrary, that the Jews who arranged for Jesus to be crucified did the supreme service to mankind according to Christian belief!
 

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
I am interested in understanding an explanation of how those denominations that accept eternal salvation through one act of faith in Jesus (such as Baptists) address the issue of people who do not do so but whose lives are moral. Is it claimed that they are nonetheless not justified or saved, and are headed for condemnation, whereas a person who accepted salvation once and spent his life in sin goes to heaven
Your 1st & 2nd questions have the same answer. But I will ask you the same questions. I'm really interested in the Rabbinic opinion regarding non-Jews.

Finally, traditional Christian doctrine has always blamed "the Jews" for the death of Jesus. But how can this be true since it is only by virtue of his death on the cross and subsequent resurrection that salvation could have ever been introduced into the world in the 1st century? One should argue the contrary, that the Jews who arranged for Jesus to be crucified did the supreme service to mankind according to Christian belief!
Jewish leaders, Roman leaders, and the devil acted together to get rid of the King. Should we praise the devil, also?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Duvduv

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
593
83
67
New York State
✟30,890.00
Country
United States
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
I am sorry. I was looking for a traditional explanation. Please help me on that. Doctrinally the fact is that Christianity stipulates that the Jews "crucified Jesus." Therefore how do traditional Christians understand that the crucifixion was NECESSARY for the gift of salvation, justification? Regarding the Jewish point of view about non-Jews, please elaborate on what you are asking. To make a long story short. ALL NON-JEWS who abide by morality accepted in the Torah for non-Jews have a place in heaven. Or are you asking about the issue of sinning as a constant fact in relation to admission to heaven?
 
Upvote 0

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
13,649
6,108
Massachusetts
✟583,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Greetings everyone. I am interested in understanding an explanation of how those denominations that accept eternal salvation through one act of faith in Jesus (such as Baptists) address the issue of people who do not do so but whose lives are moral. Is it claimed that they are nonetheless not justified or saved, and are headed for condemnation, whereas a person who accepted salvation once and spent his life in sin goes to heaven (even if he is punished/chastised per Hebrews for his sins without being condemned)?
Hi, Duvduv :) I see you name Judaism and are asking about Christian denominations. I offer I am familiar with the idea that a person can say a sinner's prayer to Jesus and then is guaranteed Heaven, no matter what he or she does. This is connected with the "once saved, always saved" idea.

It is something like this > the person admits to being a sinner and trusts Jesus on the cross to save him or her. And Jesus on the cross has done the work to get the person justified so now the person has the righteousness of Christ. And the person can't lose this.

Now, I would say not all people would explain this the exact same way.

I think most people who know the Bible do not believe you can be saved and do anything at all but still go to Heaven. We believe that if we have trusted in Jesus, God changes us so we get into living the way God desires.

And Hebrews 12:4-14 talks about discipline, yes, but my opinion is discipline is not like how humans use pain and trouble to drive a person to stop doing what is wrong. But in God's way of discipline our Father in us corrects our character so we "become partakers of His holiness" in His love's "peaceable fruit of righteousness".

And "righteousness" here is not only a label we get, but how our character becomes right the way God's own love is right . . . therefore holy and not like human nature and human love. So, such discipline has to do with how God changes us into how His love is so we are so personally and intimately sharing with Him.

And this is guaranteed to happen, if a person trusts in Jesus and becomes joined to Jesus >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

So, real salvation is not only saying some repetition prayer and then claiming you are righteous. But God joins a person to Jesus, so the person is "one spirit with" Jesus in the person. And this has an almighty effect in the person's character. The person is turned "from the power of Satan to God" > see Acts 26:18.

As you can see, this is in the Bible. We do not make our own selves holy, but God changes us so we are "partakers" > in sharing with Him who has us "one spirit with" Jesus so we become holy like Jesus who is living in us. And this means how His love is holy. This is about how we become able to love.
 
Upvote 0

com7fy8

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2013
13,649
6,108
Massachusetts
✟583,430.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Second, how were human beings justified and saved before Jesus appeared on the scene? This would even include the vast majority of mankind in the immediate period and centuries after his crucifixion. None of these people, whether Jews or gentiles, had any salvation because either they knew nothing of Jesus, or because he did not yet appear, or because they followed the "wrong" Christian teachings? The New Testament itself says that there would be many false gospels, so what happens to all the people who sincerely followed these teachings believing they were properly saved? We all know that different denominations have different opinions about salvation and justification. So how would the vast majority of self-identified Christians be saved if they are following false gospels but sincerely believe they are doing the right thing?
My opinion > God knows the real character of each person.

What you might suppose about yourself means nothing, basically. Any of us can fool our own selves and not know this . . . right?

So we need God, then, to make sure we get things right.

And have you read the Gospel of John chapter six, about how our Father draws a person to Jesus and teaches the person?

God is able to make sure a person learns what is needed.

But how our character is is most important. Because God's purpose is to change us into the likeness of Jesus so Jesus has many family members who are like Him and who love like Jesus loves.

I would say this is basic Bible.
 
Upvote 0

Andrewn

Well-Known Member
CF Ambassadors
Supporter
Jul 4, 2019
5,801
4,309
-
✟678,702.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Doctrinally the fact is that Christianity stipulates that the Jews "crucified Jesus." Therefore how do traditional Christians understand that the crucifixion was NECESSARY for the gift of salvation, justification?
Some Jewish leaders in the first century crucified Christ. Other Jews believed in him. A third group neither believed nor persecuted Christ or Christians. Christ himself is a Jew and so are his apostles. So, not all Jews crucified Christ. Only those who abuse and persecute others are condemned, whether the abusers are Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, or Atheists.

Was it necessary that Christ inaugurates the New Covenant with his blood? The NT says so. There is something about the Temple being purified with blood. I don't know why temples have to be purified with blood or why covenants have to be confirmed by blood. You may know the answer. Christ was predestined to be killed because he was too good to be left alone to die from natural causes.

ALL NON-JEWS who abide by morality accepted in the Torah for non-Jews have a place in heaven.
How about the following quotations:

"The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).

"But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]

"… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b)."

Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online

"Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.

"The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:"
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Duvduv

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
593
83
67
New York State
✟30,890.00
Country
United States
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
In the first instance I was hoping for an explanation related to historical sources and commentaries in Christian denominations. Where does it leave the righteous person who was never saved? Is his fate worse than that of the wicked person who was saved at age 20 but who was then wicked later on, who is "once saved always saved"?
I think the Jewish discussion should be part of a separate thread elsewhere.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Greetings everyone. I am interested in understanding an explanation
of how those denominations that accept eternal salvation through one act of faith in Jesus (such as Baptists)
address the issue of people who do not do so but whose lives are moral. Is it claimed that they are nonetheless not justified or saved, and are headed for condemnation,
1) Well, it begins with Christians receiving and believing, based on the NT record and teaching, that Jesus Christ is the Son of
God come down from heaven (John 3:13, 6:32-33, 38, 41, 50-51, 58), and that what he teaches is from God himself, is
authoritative, and is eternal truth and law.
That being the foundation of Christian doctrine and belief, we find NT teaching of both Jesus and the penman of the NT,
mostly apostles, that salvation from God's wrath (Romans 5:9) and condemnation of all mankind (Romans 5:18) is about
what God does
, not what man does, that "Salvation is the Lord's"--his, and his alone (Revelation 7:10), so that no one can
boast (Ephesians 2:9).
And in NT revelation, what God does is forgive the sin, which condemns to damnation, of those who believe in and trust on
the person and sacrificial atoning work (blood--Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin and right
standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," sanctified.
The NT reveals there is no other way to be saved from God's wrath and reconciled to him, and particularly not by one's own
righteousness (morality), for no one is righteous enough (Romans 3:9-10) to be reconciled to God.
So (imperfect) morality has no standing in God's economy of salvation from his wrath on the sin which condemns all mankind.
(Romans 5:18)
whereas a person who accepted salvation once and spent his life in sin goes to heaven (even if he is
punished/chastised per Hebrews for his sins without being condemned)?
2) That is nowhere presented in the NT.
True saving faith obeys."By their fruits you shall know them." (Matthew 7:16-20)
If there is no obedience, there is no true faith, there is only counterfeit faith, and counterfeit faith does not save;
i.e., they were never saved in the first place.
Second, how were human beings justified and saved before Jesus appeared on the scene?
3) Through faith in the Promise (Jesus Christ), the same way they are in the NT, through faith in Jesus Christ (the Promise).
Those in the OT, beginning with Abraham, were justified through faith (Genesis 15:6) in the Promise (Jesus Christ, the
Seed of the promise of Genesis 15:5, and also to whom the promises were spoken personally, per Galatians 3:16).
This would even include the vast majority of mankind in the immediate period and centuries after his crucifixion.
None of these people, whether Jews or gentiles, had any salvation because either they knew nothing of Jesus, or because
he did not yet appear, or because they followed the "wrong" Christian teachings?
4) The NT states that all mankind knows of God through creation (Romans 1:19-20), and that all mankind has a conscience (Romans 2:14-15).

If they obeyed God according to their conscience, the only light they had, they will be judged on that basis (Romans 2:6).
The New Testament itself says that there would be many false gospels, so what happens to all the people who
sincerely followed these teachings believing they were properly saved? We all know that different denominations have
different opinions about salvation and justification. So how would the vast majority of self-identified Christians be saved
if they are following false gospels but sincerely believe they are doing the right thing?
5) God has given us his word written. If we claim salvation, we have a duty to study his word written, wherein we will see the
false teaching we are believing. God will judge our faithfulness in this regard.
Finally, traditional Christian doctrine has always blamed "the Jews" for the death of Jesus. But how can
this be true since it is only by virtue of his death on the cross and subsequent resurrection that salvation could have ever
been introduced into the world in the 1st century? One should argue the contrary, that the Jews who arranged for Jesus to
be crucified did the supreme service to mankind according to Christian belief!
6) Addressed by me in your thread on that topic.

And feel free to present what you see as contradictions in the NT that we may examine them in the light of NT teaching.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Duvduv

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
593
83
67
New York State
✟30,890.00
Country
United States
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
I am sorry but I have difficulty understanding how this relates to my very basic question. I cannot keep up with all the verses. I am just asking a theological question. How could someone who was once saved but spent most of his life sinning end up in heaven, whereas a person who was never saved but lived a moral and ethical life is condemned? And on what basis were people BEFORE Jesus saved but today it's impossible? And finally, since what is called Christianity has SO MANY variations and subtleties, how is any sincere well-intentioned person who lives his life according to the values of his denomination able to know if he has been truly saved or not?
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I am sorry but I have difficulty understanding how this relates to my very basic question. I cannot keep up with all the verses. I am just asking a theological question. How could someone who was once saved but spent most of his life sinning end up in heaven, whereas a person who was never saved but lived a moral and ethical life is condemned? And on what basis were people BEFORE Jesus saved but today it's impossible? And finally, since what is called Christianity has SO MANY variations and subtleties, how is any sincere well-intentioned person who lives his life according to the values of his denomination able to know if he has been truly saved or not?
I am sorry but I have difficulty understanding how this relates to my very basic question. I cannot keep up with all the verses. I am just asking a theological question. How could someone who was once saved but spent most of his life sinning end up in heaven, whereas a person who was never saved but lived a moral and ethical life is condemned? And on what basis were people BEFORE Jesus saved but today it's impossible? And finally, since what is called Christianity has SO MANY variations and subtleties, how is any sincere well-intentioned person who lives his life according to the values of his denomination able to know if he has been truly saved or not?
Your six questions are answered in post #8, where they are enumerated.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
24,945
6,054
North Carolina
✟273,781.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I guess at least what you are saying is that you don't know how mankind could have been saved before Jesus appeared because no one ever explains it either in the New Testament or in the writings of later theologians.
That is answered in #3.
 
Upvote 0

Duvduv

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
593
83
67
New York State
✟30,890.00
Country
United States
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Is this a discussion forum or a scripture verses forum where there is no discussion but where people ask questions and get answers from verses that are expected to shut them up? That's what the Catholic Church was like a few hundred years ago when people started asking questions. "if you don't like the answer, shut up!" So now history repeats itself on this forum. Too bad there isn't more participation !
 
Upvote 0

Redac

Regular Member
Jul 16, 2007
4,342
945
California
✟167,609.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I'll try to give a Catholic perspective, at least as well as I understand it.

I guess at least what you are saying is that you don't know how mankind could have been saved before Jesus appeared because no one ever explains it either in the New Testament or in the writings of later theologians.
It's just not really being explained well here. I don't particularly like just throwing out verses with no context or elaboration either.

Anywho, as for those who came before the crucifixion. The belief is that Jesus Christ is responsible for the salvation of all people, from all time -- including those who lived and died before Him. This is thought to have been accomplished when He descended into Hell (the underworld, the abode of the dead) after His death, where He delivered the message of salvation to the righteous dead, opening the gates of Heaven and allowing them to finally enter directly into the presence of God.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
632 The frequent New Testament affirmations that Jesus was "raised from the dead" presuppose that the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection.477 This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead. But he descended there as Saviour, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there.478

633 Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, "hell" - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God.479 Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into "Abraham's bosom":480 "It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Saviour in Abraham's bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell."481 Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him.482

634 "The gospel was preached even to the dead."483 The descent into hell brings the Gospel message of salvation to complete fulfilment. This is the last phase of Jesus' messianic mission, a phase which is condensed in time but vast in its real significance: the spread of Christ's redemptive work to all men of all times and all places, for all who are saved have been made sharers in the redemption.

635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."484 Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."485 Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."486

As for the other two points in the OP, we don't believe in so-called "easy believism" so it's not really applicable, and like you said, the question about Jews and the crucifixion is probably better left to its own discussion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Andrewn
Upvote 0

Duvduv

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
593
83
67
New York State
✟30,890.00
Country
United States
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Something quoted from a denomination's "catechism" is more significant than personal opinions at least in terms of knowing what a denomination thinks about a particular issue. But then there is the "logic" behind particular positions, i.e. to explain what it meant to be saved by Jesus BEFORE Jesus even appeared on the scene.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Duvduv

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
593
83
67
New York State
✟30,890.00
Country
United States
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
Since salvation is subjective, and there is no objective proof of it, how can a sincere believer know which Christian "path" is the right one. If a person can be saved by faith regardless of denominational differences, then what's the point of the different denominations, whether Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Pentacostal, Lutheran, Methodist, etc.? All the differences among them are irrelevant as long as a person has simply accepted salvation by faith in Jesus.
 
Upvote 0

Redac

Regular Member
Jul 16, 2007
4,342
945
California
✟167,609.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Something quoted from a denomination's "catechism" is more significant than personal opinions at least in terms of knowing what a denomination thinks about a particular issue. But then there is the "logic" behind particular positions, i.e. to explain what it meant to be saved by Jesus BEFORE Jesus even appeared on the scene.
Jesus as God incarnate lived at a specific point in time. God the Son, the second person of the Trinity, has existed into eternity past. God's not bound by time.

Since salvation is subjective, and there is no objective proof of it, how can a sincere believer know which Christian "path" is the right one. If a person can be saved by faith regardless of denominational differences, then what's the point of the different denominations, whether Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Pentacostal, Lutheran, Methodist, etc.? All the differences among them are irrelevant as long as a person has simply accepted salvation by faith in Jesus.
This is actually a sort of indifferentism, which the Catholic Church rejects. That said, it seems like you're presenting a very specific view of salvation -- that all a person has to do make an act of faith in Jesus, and that's it, you're saved, and the rest of what you do for the rest of your life doesn't really matter. As far as I can tell that view is only espoused by a narrow group of Evangelicals, or maybe certain IFB churches. Catholics don't believe that, Orthodox don't believe that, most Protestants don't believe that, and I'd bet the majority of Evangelicals don't believe exactly that.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: anna ~ grace
Upvote 0

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,381
Sydney, Australia.
✟244,844.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Since salvation is subjective, and there is no objective proof of it, how can a sincere believer know which Christian "path" is the right one. If a person can be saved by faith regardless of denominational differences, then what's the point of the different denominations, whether Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Pentacostal, Lutheran, Methodist, etc.? All the differences among them are irrelevant as long as a person has simply accepted salvation by faith in Jesus.
There are different schools in Christianity. The same in Judaism, different schools following different traditions.

People are raised in different denominations and that's the path they walk.

You were raised in Judaism no doubt, that is the way you see things.

To believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus is non denominational.
 
Upvote 0

Duvduv

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
593
83
67
New York State
✟30,890.00
Country
United States
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
I'm sorry to say I couldn't follow the first reply that seemed a bit convoluted. All I asked was what punishment is a consequence of sinning? If salvation is guaranteed then sinning along the way isn't much of a bug deal. On the other hand suffering in this life despite moral living is a mystery. Finally, as I brought up before, what happens to the moral person who didn't put faith in Jesus compared to a wicked person who once had faith and salvation? Simple questions looking for simple unconvoluted explanations.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Duvduv

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2018
593
83
67
New York State
✟30,890.00
Country
United States
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Married
What happens when people ask about salvation and Jesus? Is it the Catholic Jesus salvation? The Lutheran Jesus salvation? The Calvinist Jesus salvation? The Baptist Jesus salvation? The Mormon Jesus salvation? The Pentecostal Jesus salvation?
 
Upvote 0