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Salvation is through faith alone.

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by justbyfaith, Oct 10, 2018.

  1. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    I don't see faith and works as being two distinct things such that one produces the other, but rather good works are the expression of faith or what faith looks like, which is why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that it is only the doers of the Law who will be justified. We can't have faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live while refusing to follow His instructions for how to do that, so we are not saved by our obedience but by having a faith that requires our obedience or that expresses itself as obedience. In James 2:18, he didn't say that the result of his faith is good works, but that he would show his faith by his works. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to live in obedience God, so that is what our salvation from living in disobedience to God looks like, not something added on top of our faith or to earn our salvation.
     
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Consider Galatians 2:16 when thinking about Romans 2:13. These seem contradictory but are not.

    Romans 2:13 is a statement that 1) speaks of the fact that salvation is regeneration which results in obedience, and 2) speaks of the fact that under the law, there is condemnation for those who are not perfectly obedient (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).

    If you read from Romans 2:13 all the way down to Romans 3:28, I believe that you will see a progression of thought wherein Paul leaves the idea of being justified by the law and finally comes to the conclusion that no one is justified in the sight of God by law-keeping but that salvation is by faith alone in Jesus Christ. Paul begins the book of Romans with the same understanding as James and progresses in his thought processes to come to realize what he later wrote in Galatians 2:16.

    James never came to the realization of this divine revelation because he was killed by Herod before he could think it through (I believe it was in Acts 12).
     
  3. Ken Rank

    Ken Rank Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I understand your point and caution and respect it. But I have to remind you, that if faith without works is dead alone, then there is no biblical "faith alone aspect needs to be preached" because if one says faith without works, it isn't even faith. Remember, faith and belief are not the same word. One can believe something and not act... but faith requires hearing and then acting on what is heard. We don't need to water down God's message... but what we can do is make sure we explain it properly. And so... when you feel the need to attempt a "faith no works" message... say it this way...

    When come to God with a pure heart seeking Him and His righteousness and He offers us life for no other reason than His abundant grace. But once we become part of His family, there are expectations that He has for those who are His. Thus we are not saved by works, but the saved work.
     
  4. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Galatians 2:16 and Romans 2:13 aren't even speaking about the same law. In Romans 2:13, it is not speaking about the way to become justified, but about something that everyone who will be justified as in common. If we have faith, then we will obey God's Law and if we have faith, then we will be justified, so all those who will be justified have it in common that we are doers of the Law. Obedience is not optional, so it is therefore required.

    The need for perfect obedience as always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the Law and of God's character because it makes God out to be interested in our outward performance when He has always been interested in our hearts, and has always disdained it when His people honored him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him. If someone managed to have perfect outward obedience while their heart was far from God, then that would be worthless and they would be missing the whole point (Philippians 3:8).

    The Law itself came with instructions for what to do when people sinned, so perfect obedience was never the requirement. If we needed perfect obedience, then there would be no point in repentance because it would already be too late, yet the consistent message of the prophets up to and including Jesus is to repent from our sins and to return to obedience to the Law, so repentance has always been key. In James 2:1-10, he was speaking to people who had already sinned, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience and he was not condemning them, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to do a better job of obeying the Law more consistently by not showing favoritism.

    In Romans 3:21-22, the Law and the Prophets bear witness to the fact that the righteousness of God is given through faith in Christ for all who believe, so this has always been the one and only way to obtain righteousness, and the Law and the Prophets do not bear witness to the righteousness of God being obtained through perfect obedience. James was in full agreement with righteousness being by faith because he approved of Paul's message. In Hebrews 11:7, Noah was listed as an example of faith and in Genesis 6:8-9, it says that he found grace in the eyes of God and that he was a righteous man, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith in the same one and only way as everyone else. In Romans 3:31, our faith does not abolish our need to obey the Law, but rather our faith upholds it.
     
  5. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Perfect obedience is the requirement under the law (James 2:10, Matthew 5:48, Galatians 3:10).

    Now of course no one can keep the law perfectly (Galatians 3:22, Romans 3:23, 1 John 1:8, Romans 7:18, Galatians 6:13).

    That is why we must put our trust in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the Cross. The appropriation of His shed blood brings justification where obedience to the law couldn't (Romans 5:9, Romans 3:25, Romans 5:1).
     
  6. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    You need to fully accept that 1 John 1:7 says that if we walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. You need to fully accept that Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. You need to fully accept that Jesus says that if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

    There are no shortcuts.
    There is no easy way out.

    "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."
    (Acts of the Apostles 14:22).

    "...for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:" (Matthew 7:13).
     
  7. bcbsr

    bcbsr Newbie

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    For one thing the gospel promise wasn't given to Satan.
    Another thing is the "belief" Satan has is not saving faith. So, no he doesn't believe in God.
     
  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith justified sinner

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    Yep, Jesus requires perfect obedience of you. Are you there?

    If the blood of Jesus is going to cleanse you of all sin, you must be absolutely transparent before God and man. You there? Are all your sins laid out on the table?
     
  9. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Again, your words here is not what those verses say. Read them again in prayer to God. 1 John 1:7 says if you walk in the light = the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses you from all sin. You say, do not walk in the light (but walk in darkness) and you are still saved or have the cleansing blood (because your profile says you are a justified sinner). Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who OBEY Him. How can you obey if you say you are a justified sinner? In other words, that would be like a person declaring they are fat even when their body is skinny and they work out and eat healthy. One's words declare what one's actions are going to be. Sure, people can deceive themselves into thinking they are fat when they really are not. But that would not be the truth. In Matthew 19:17, Jesus says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments. How does that work again in your belief? The short answer is that it doesn't. You have to come up with a work around explanation that is forced into the text.
     
  10. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

    Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

    It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies never remains alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony* :oldthumbsup:
     
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  11. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God" but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation.

    In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.
     
  12. Danthemailman

    Danthemailman Well-Known Member

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    We are saved by God's grace through our faith (not by works) and faith is accounted for righteousness (Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 4:5-6).

    True faith results in producing works, otherwise it demonstrates that it is dead faith. Faith is not defined as works. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to give evidence to his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

    Are you living in accordance with ALL of God's commands? Are you living a sinless, without fault or defect, flawless, absolute perfect life 100% of the time? Exactly as Jesus lived? Philippians 3:9 - and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith.

    Faith is not just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. Repentance precedes saving faith in Christ (Acts 20:21); confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart (and not just in our head) that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together (Romans 10:8-10); water baptism follows saving belief in Christ/repentance unto life (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18).
     
  13. Hazelelponi

    Hazelelponi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hello Ken nice to meet you.

    I think the problem with this point of view is that outside of Jesus we can't overcome anything. The law showed us that.. the more we "try" to be or do good, the more we will only fail. The teaching of do, do, do is setting people up to fail and once failure occurs they become morose as if they are not elect.

    But if we rest in Christ's work, literally lean/rest into the Spirit then the overcoming is possible, not through ourselves but through Christ.

    Its this that needs taught, because if your teaching too much do do do then people forget they have to rest in the Spirit and let that aspect of our new nature just simply be victorious (as it already has) in order to overcome our individual sins.
     
  14. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    People today have taken “Paul fighting against Circumcision Salvationism” in Galatians and Romans out of context (See Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 6:15, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12). Paul was trying to tell believers that they cannot be saved by thinking they had to be circumcised (Which is “Works Alone Salvationism”). We are not to put the cart (works) before the horse (God’s grace, i.e. Jesus). We are also not under the Law of Moses (contractually speaking). Circumcision Salvationism is about "Works Alone Salvationism" and going back to the whole of the Law of Moses that is no more.

    This fact is even more clear if people were to actually read and believe Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, and Acts of the Apostles 15:24.

    We are under a New Covenant with new commands.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  15. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Paul said if any man does not consent (speaks contrary) to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.

    Folks who continue in sin on some level (because they say we are justified sinners by faith) is taking the words of Jesus and His followers out of context. The parable of the Tax Collector is an example of a person who first needs to come to Christ for forgiveness (repent) in order to be initially right with God. Nowhere does this Parable or the teaching on Repentance tell us that we will continually cry out to God every day over our sins the rest of our lives. Repentance leads to the fruits of repentance (walking uprightly afterwards). See Matthew 12:41, and compare with Jonah 3:6-10.

    We are not forgiven by having a belief alone on Jesus with no works of faith.
    We are not justified by the works of the Law of Moses (as a whole - contractually speaking). We are not saved by “Works Alone Salvationism” (without God’s grace), but works and a holy life must follow a person saved by God’s grace. If not, then it is an empty profession.
    People want the wide gate or easy path.
    Jesus said His yoke (burden) is light, but it is still a burden.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  16. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    We are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). How does that work in the Belief Alone + nothing type gospel?

    The short answer is that it doesn’t work.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
  17. MDC

    MDC Well-Known Member

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    A synergistic belief in attaining and maintaining salvation denies the gospel of Christ. And nullifies grace altogether. Yes, salvation in Christ alone results in the doctrine you despise so much Jason, sola fide! Works alone salvation is the opposite of sola fide. Why do you think popery despises it so much? According to you, Gods grace is nothing more than a “help” to WORK for your salvation.. if not you’ll lose it
     
  18. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    This doesn't have anything to do with Catholicism, Orthodox churches, etc.; I am not Catholic, or Orthodox. I believe in Sola Scriptura. I believe the Bible is my authority alone. So this topic has to do with the Bible in what it says plainly. However, in the "Belief Alone" camp, folks have to ignore (or change the plain meaning) of whole sections of the Bible in order to make their belief work.

    For when a "Belief Alone" proponent reads things in their Bible like when Jesus said, "If you will enter into life, keep the commandments" in Matthew 19:17, they have to either ignore this verse or they have to find a way to explain it away.

    Philippians 2:12 is another one. It doesn't make sense to work out your salvation with fear and trembling if salvation is merely a "Belief Alone." It also talks about how the brethren have obeyed even more so in his absence. This surely does not sound like those in the "Belief Alone" camp how wave a false misinterpretation on 1 John 1:8 in the air like it is their banner flag.

    You can act like you are throwing down the morality card when you say that it is wrong that a believer's works need to be included in God's grace and make it sound like it is "Works Alone Salvationism" when it is not. But what is the alternative choice in your belief? What is the opposite of not doing good under God's grace? It is sin. So if you do not believe in doing good as a part of God's grace as being essential, then that means that sin or doing wrong is what one can do then as a part of God's grace. For do you believe that a Christian can be an axe murdering rapist and be saved? Some in the Eternal Security camp do believe that is possible for such a person to be saved. Others, like yourself would probably say.... "no." But why? If the Eternal Security or "Belief Alone" type faith is true: Then God's grace is sufficient to cover sin, and it will cover sin to it's fullest extent no matter how wicked or vile someone lives. But we know the Scriptures teach that the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. This would include anyone who is justifying even just one sin and or a gospel that makes an allowance for a person to potentially turn God's grace into a license for immorality.
     
  19. MDC

    MDC Well-Known Member

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    Who said it has anything to do with Catholicism or the Orthodox? I’m just saying you fall into the same camp whether you like it or not when it comes to this topic. And nice try Jason, I’m not promoting disobedience. Neither is anyone who holds to sola fide. But yet you promote that mans works of obedience are the grounds for justification. Regardless of how you falsely admit to Gods grace as being the cause of it. Like I said you believe Gods grace and Christ’s merits are only a “help” in WORKING for salvation. How are you any different than those Paul condemned and exposed as enemies of the gospel?
     
  20. Bible Highlighter

    Bible Highlighter Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul. Supporter

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    Let's just cut to the chase:

    Do you believe King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder?

    Side Note:

    You said "popery" in your previous post. That is why I mentioned before that I am not Catholic, or Orthodox.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
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