You sound dangerously close to teaching salvation by faith and works.
I either am or am not. Dangerously close makes no difference. The Jews built fences around the Law to keep themselves as far away as possible from trespassing. Jesus brought them back from their traditions to the Law. No need for fences here. Just the Text.
I suspect you are teaching salvation by faith and works. Please tell me that is not what you are teaching.
I'm saying what I see the Text saying about faith, obedience, work, and salvation. And I'm not concerned any longer with other teachings. I learned from them and then had to unlearn some of them after I went back to school to learn Greek exegesis and then worked at it for a few decades. Oddly enough, the unlearning is one of the hardest things to do. The loyalties we build to theological camps are astounding and we can see the outcome of them on nearly every theological thread on these forums.
It's one thing to obey God's command to believe upon His name unto salvation (
John 1:12) and it's another thing to obey multiple commands by God "after" we have been saved. Paul speaks of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (
Romans 10:16; 1:16) yet this is not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow" believing the gospel unto salvation.
That's a lot of work for you to clarify something that doesn't need to be clarified. You've just confirmed what I said, Faith & Obedience are so closely tied together as to be virtually inseparable. If Faith is not a work, which it's not, then neither is obedience a work, which it's not. We begin in Faith-Obedience, we progress in Faith-Obedience + works, we end in Faith-Obedience. By recognizing obedience to the gospel, you're farther ahead in this matter than you're letting yourself recognize.
My formula needs no correction. Choosing to place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation is the act of obedience which saves. We are not saved by multiple acts of obedience/works which "follow" having been saved through faith.
Titus 3:5 says works of righteousness (works which are done in righteousness) that are done out of obedience to God.
You're not concerned by calling obedience an "act of obedience" involved in our salvation? This would get you burned at the stake by some theological camps.
Even Faith + Obedience is not Faith alone. I can guaranty you that this would also get you staked in these same camps.
Your formula does need correction: By attaching obedience to works as you've done ("obedience/works"), then saying choosing to place our faith is the act of obedience, you've just said one is saved by your formula and you are thereby proclaiming a faith + obedience/works salvation.
Maybe my formula needs correction also, to: Faith/Obedience + Works. Obviously we could refine this because there is a close connection between the 3 words when works is involved. But the Text does not (as far as I'm aware) use Obedience in parallel with Works as it does Faith & Obedience.
The only way your formula can be modified to get you back closer to where you need to be is: Faith + Obedience + Works. Thereby you can drop the works and still have Faith + Obedience. But obedience/works does not work for what you've said re: being saved. Faith/Obedience works also.
Notice that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and not "work for" your salvation. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification in which we are set apart for God's work and being conformed to the image of Christ. This conforming to Christ involves the work of the person, but it is still God working in the believer to produce more of a godly character and life in the person who has already been justified by faith. Verse 13 - for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.
This is playing semantics, Dan.
Firstly, "work out" is an English translation that is far from being the more precise translation of the Greek word
kategrazomai. I don't know where you got the meaning you quote, but it's close enough to what I said (accomplish by work). So, we'll use your referenced meaning.
Next, you're doing what I said you'd do, and what others with your sensitivities do: you change the wording of the Text from "salvation" to "sanctification." Using your referenced meaning of
kategrazomai, we have a command "to continually work to bring "our salvation" to completion or fruition." And I already referenced verse 13, so maybe you're clarifying for yourself, but not for me.
Thirdly, there's no need to clarify with any prepositions like "for" here. Just use the translation with the meaning you've found & let it say what it says. We work with God as commanded to complete our [gifted] salvation.
I'm going to address the
salvation issues without further quoting you:
I think it's odd, but understandable, that you see the 3 tenses of salvation, but don't see the process. We were saved, we are being saved, we will be saved is clearly an experiential process for us, based in an overall plan of God, which He has gifted to us by His Grace. And Phil2:12-13 clearly commands us to work with God to accomplish our salvation in the "we are being saved" tense.
If I say "initial salvation" to clarify that I'm talking about "we were saved," then this is hardly wrong. Initial = were saved. Experiential = being saved. Future = will be saved. Change the terminology to suit you, if you will, but these correlate with the 3 tenses.
In Eph2:5 & 8, when Paul says "you have been saved" and that Salvation is God's Grace Gift through faith not works:
- What tense(s) is he talking about?
- Are you aware of the debate about the grammar in 2:8 - is "faith" the gift OR is "by grace you have been saved through faith" the gift?