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Salvation is 100% God's doing, being lost is 100% our doing

Discussion in 'Debate with a Calvinist' started by rockybashful, Nov 26, 2020.

  1. rockybashful

    rockybashful Brother in Christ

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    I've been having this interesting thought in my mind as a response to calvinism and I was wondering what you guys think. Basically the idea is that salvation is 100% what God does, even choosing salvation is His doing because literally every good gift comes from Him.

    But to be lost is 100% something we do, we are lost by trying to save ourselves by OUR own works. Being lost is of OUR own choosing because no bad choice ever come from God.

    Okay, there's the thought, now what do you guys think? Do you believe it's biblical?
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
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  2. Neostarwcc

    Neostarwcc We are saved purely by the work and grace of God. Supporter

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    Depends on your definition of "lost" if by "lost" you mean "never saved in the first place" than yes I would agree.

    If by lost you mean they "lose their salvation" than no, i wouldn't agree with you.

    The word of God is clear that once a person is saved, they're saved forever.
     
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  3. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    Half of it is Biblical, the part about salvation is 100% God.

    But being lost (condemned) is 100% Adam (Ro 5:18).

    It is from that condemnation which faith in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ (Ro 3:25) saves us.
    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
  4. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Member Supporter

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    Hello @rockybashful, first off, I see that you are a new member here, so WELCOME TO CF :wave: And also, since you are American, Happy Thanksgiving :)

    The Calvinist position on losing our salvation, or on our choosing to forfeit it is this .. it won't happen .. because God will see to it that it doesn't :amen: We believe that He "preserves" us in the faith, from justification to glorification, such that ALL who are drawn by Him in this life will persevere in the faith to the end (albeit imperfectly).

    We are saved from the moment that we first believe/come to saving faith in the Lord Jesus, and it is in that moment that we are given "eternal life" (not temporary or probational life).

    Here are just a few of the passages that cause us to believe/teach what we do, that ALL of the elect of God, His saints and His saints to be, will persevere in the faith and be eternally saved.

    John 3
    16 God so loved the world, that He gave His conly begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
    17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
    18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

    John 5
    24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has ~eternal~ life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

    John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
    ALL that the Father gives me will come to Me and .. of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day.

    John 6
    44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

    John 10
    26 You do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
    27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
    28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

    Philippians 1
    6 I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

    1 Thessalonians 5
    23 May the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body
    be ~preserved~ complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
    24 Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.

    Hebrews 7
    25 He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

    1 John 5
    13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

    Jude 1

    24 Now unto Him who is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,
    25 to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and forevermore. Amen.

    --David
    p.s. - I normally add 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 as part of my welcome to new Christians here, so please consider that passage part of your welcome as well :)
    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
  5. Clare73

    Clare73 Blood-bought

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    To what part of "Calvinism" are you thinking about responding?
    .
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
  6. rockybashful

    rockybashful Brother in Christ

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    You're right, to be in Adam is to be condemned, but to be in Christ is to be saved.

    Nope, I don't mean you can lose your salvation because there's nothing you do can change who you are in Christ. Salvation isn't about doing, it's about being. It's your identity.

    Hmmm... Everything I said about "doing" at the beginning was something I had just made up while thinking on this topic and I'm starting to think that our doing has nothing to do with anything. Only God's doing really has any say anyway.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
  7. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Member Supporter

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    Hello again @rockybashful, I thought it might be helpful to include an official Calvinist teaching on this topic, the topic that the 5th "petal" of our acrostic TULIP is referring to, "Perseverance", or more specifically, the "Perseverance of the Saints".

    Chapter 17: Of the Perseverance of the Saints
    The 1647 Westminster Confession of Faith

    1. They whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.a


    a. John 10:28-29; Phil 1:6; 1 Pet 1:5, 9; 2 Pet 1:10; 1 John 3:9.

    2. This perseverance of the saints depends, not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father;a upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ;b the abiding of the Spirit and of the seed of God within them;c and the nature of the covenant of grace:d from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.e

    a. Jer 31:3; 2 Tim 2:18-19. • b. Luke 22:32; John 17:11, 24; Heb 7:25; 9:12-15; 10:10, 14; 13:20-21; Rom 8:33-39. • c. John 14:16-17; 1 John 2:27; 3:9. • d. Jer 32:40. • e. John 10:28; 2 Thes 3:3; 1 John 2:19.

    3. Nevertheless they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins;a and for a time continue therein:b whereby they incur God’s displeasure,c and grieve his Holy Spirit;d come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts;e have their hearts hardened,f and their consciences wounded;g hurt and scandalize others,h and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.i

    a. Mat 26:70, 72, 74. • b. Psa 51 title with v. 14. • c. 2 Sam 11:27; Isa 64:5, 7, 9. • d. Eph 4:30. • e. Psa 51:8, 10, 12; Song 5:2-4, 6; Rev 2:4. • f. Isa 63:17; Mark 6:52; 16:14. • g. Psa 32:3-4; 51:8. • h. 2 Sam 12:14. • i. Psa 89:31-32; 1 Cor 11:32.
    --David
     
  8. rockybashful

    rockybashful Brother in Christ

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    An interesting observation I've noticed is that there's always the temptation to doubt in one's assurance of salvation whether if you're calvanist or arminion, here's why:

    A calvinist may doubt whether or not he or she is elect.
    An arminianist may doubt his perseverance

    Just seems both camps are paranoid about being saved, they just have difference in opinion on how to explain the details on how it happens.
     
  9. Aussie Pete

    Aussie Pete Well-Known Member Supporter

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    We are born "lost" - dead in trespass and sin. How can a dead person do anything? So God came in the person of Jesus to seek and save the lost. Even as a Christian, it is impossible to "save", as in deliver, ourselves. "By grace are you saved" is a daily declaration, not an instant when you are first born again. The word "save" has become Christian code for going to heaven when you die. This is not the whole meaning by any means. Salvation also means deliverance (Luke 4:18, Hebrews 12:1). The initial experience is instant followed by a lifetime of growing in grace and of deliverance from various bondages. God delivers according to our willingness to change. He does the rest. Even my willingness to change is something that I had to ask God for.
     
  10. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Member Supporter

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    That is true. While the "assurance" of our salvation can be a fleeting thing at times (depending on where our walk is in the moment), thanks be to God that our "salvation" is not :amen: (as many of the verses in post #4 above point our for us).

    That said, there are also people who claim to be believers and even have assurance that they are saved, who are not/never were. This is a frightening fact that is pointed out to us in passages like this one .. Matthew 7:22-23.

    --David

    Matthew 7
    22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
    23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I ~never~ knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

    .
     
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