Salvation in the OT before Christ, without the Spirit?

[pilgrimage]

What about Numbers 27:18 which states that Joshua had the Spirit in him?

Further, didn't Jesus chide Nicodemus for not understanding that the Holy Spirit makes one born of the Spirit? Jesus told him that this was something he should have known...even before the NT Scriptures were written.

The Spirit can only be equated with the breath not with the fire. It's not the same thing.

 

[bsd058]

The Spirit can only be equated with the breath not with the fire. It's not the same thing.

Not sure what you mean. I didn't say anything about fire. Could you explain?

 

[St_Worm2]

Sorry, did not mean that, my question is the Holy Spirits role in the OT

Hi Andy, sorry for any confusion. Post #6 concerned something that @ImAllLikeOkWaitWhat said, not you.

While I've got you however (concerning the OP), while I agree that something BIG/different happened at and after Pentecost in regard to the operation of the HS in the lives of believers, there is no question that He was involved in the lives of believers in the OT as well. How He was involved back then is anything but clear to us however.

Some have mentioned the difference in "filling" and "indwelling", while others that the filling in the OT was more of a temporary thing (perhaps based upon the individuals walk at a particular moment in time), where others have said that His "filling" might have been based upon the need of the moment for OT saints (unlike the outpouring of the Spirit under grace which seems a far more permanent thing, our bodies now being the "temple" of the HS .. so the 'additional' reproof against sinning (since Acts 2 Pentecost) is "don't do it, because you involve the HS in a very direct way now whenever you do" .. cf 1 Corinthians 6:15-20).

There is also, in all likelihood, a good chance that what you believe concerning NT salvation (how it all "works"), may be flawed in one way or another. IOW, are you certain about all of it, what happens, in what order it happens, and why? Does regeneration (Ezekiel 36:26; John 3:3) precede faith, or does faith precede regeneration, for instance?

When I am unable to answer certain why/how type questions, I try to be patient, remembering that I don't know everything yet and/or that I may never be privy to the all the information required to fully answer the questions I have, this side of Glory anyway (the "Trinity" coming quickly to mind ) . This is where a verse like Deuteronomy 29:29 becomes so helpful, both as an admonishment and an encouragement (and a reminder that, while we may not know everything now, the Lord has certainly provided us with all that we "need" to know, yes ).

Perhaps v29 will be helpful to you as well

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[Anguspure]

Hello brothers and sisters,


In light of my views that the Lord must change the heart/give us faith, do the initial work in salvation, how can I reconcile Salvation in the OT prior to Christ and the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer.

OT heroes were looking forward to the foreshadowing of the messiah to come, and had faith in God. Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:16

Since the Holy Spirit, was not poured out till after Christ accomplished his work on the cross. and since man needs the Lord to open the eyes and ears of the individual in order that they can believe, How were OT believers saved?

Is the opening of the heart/eyes/ears not the work of the Spirit? Was the spirit indwelling the believer in the OT?

In the OT covenant there was no indwelling Holy Spirit, no tree of life, and only the opportunity to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. As we can see it was a disaster.

Nevertheless, from my point of view, it is also clear that those who are saved from these times are also saved by their faith.

From Adam to the Prophets and up to the time of the Messiah they believed in the promise they were given and it was credited to them righteousness. It was the same for each covenant including the Mosaic covenant which Law the people followed out of faith in their God.

It was by faith then that they were saved and when Christ Jesus died and was risen from the grave the sins that had been left unpunished, because of faith in God, were dealt with, the accounts outstanding were closed, and those that had died will receive the promise they waited for at the final resurrection of the dead.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Again you're venturing closer and closer to Presbyterianism with these questions...

Yes believers in the OT were regenerate and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Well, Presbyterianism is strictly speaking a system of church polity. Some Presbyterians are Arminian. What he is edging closer to is Calvinism, and Calvinists come in all three "flavors" of church polity (some are Episcopal, mainly low church Anglicans, but there was a suppressed Calvinist faction in the Catholic Church, the Jensenists, and in India, there is a Mar Thoma Reformed Church which broke off of the Syriac Orthodox Church; many are Presbyterian, and many are Congregationalist).

 

[pilgrimage]

Not sure what you mean. I didn't say anything about fire. Could you explain?

I think I got the indwelling and mantle confused. What I meant to say was anyone other than Old Testiment prophets didn't have the means of obtaining the indwelling of the Holy Spirit available to them as a nation. It was only available to unique individuals. They didn't have power and wisdom available to like New Testiment believers have. Pentecost brought in a new creation availible to anyone willing to commit to it. Previously it was only according to God's will based on His selection that used both good and evil people to accomplish what God intended to do. The power from on high, the fire baptism of the Holy Spirit that followed after the least of those of the kingdom's baptism of repentance is the main constituent of the new creation. The salvation previously in Old Testiment was salvation to those in natural bodies. You would have to convince me that we've still not reached new creation state evn partialy to place it all on a level playing field.

Regarding the Spirit of life, we need to breathe Him in as the breath (John 20:22); regarding the Spirit of power, we need to put Him on as the uniform, typified by the mantle of Elijah (2 Kings 2:9, 13-15). The former, like the water of life, requires our drinking (John 7:37-39); the latter, like the water of baptism, requires our being immersed (Acts 1:5). These are the two aspects of the one Spirit for our experience (1 Cor. 12:13). The indwelling of the Spirit of life is essential and is for our life and living; the outpouring of the Spirit of power is economical and is for our ministry and work.

 

[tdidymas]

The same way Abraham was saved by the same saving faith, we are saved today by .

Ro. 4: 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

In the parable of the “Tax Collector and the Pharisee” Luke 18: 9-14, we find two Jewish individuals living prior to the cross and Jesus said “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God.” How can that be, since the Tax collector is not putting his faith in Christ (Jesus does not give that as the reason for his justification.)? Jesus also says the Pharisee was not justified before the Lord and Jesus does not say God decided arbitrarily to justify the tax collector and not to justify the Pharisee, so what did they do differently?

I would like to add to what you are saying, and possibly answer the question.

In Gal. 3:16 Paul writes: "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." This tells me that Paul implies Abraham understood God to mean that Christ was Abraham's seed, in the promise He gave him in Gen. 15:5-6, where it says "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." This implies that all OT saints believed in the future Messiah, as I also think Heb. 11 testifies. Therefore, it is not generic faith that justified them, but faith in Christ, even though they did not yet know Him.

This would be the same for the tax collector. I get that Jesus is addressing attitude in this passage to show the Pharisees that their self-righteous attitude doesn't justify them. Jesus simply isn't telling the whole story here, namely why the tax collector:
1. Sees his own sin as horribly sinful
2. Grieves over his sin
3. Humbles himself before God
4. Hopes that God will be merciful to him
5. Believes that God heard his prayer (with hope in a Messiah he doesn't yet know - this is how he could believe that God heard)
6. Most likely has been satisfied in believing God's forgiveness by receiving a personal response from God such as an affirmation

Although #6 is not necessary for a forensic justification, it would be necessary for the experience of it. It would depend on whether Jesus meant that he went home justified without knowing it, or justified having known it.
TD

 

[Wordkeeper]

Psalm 51
11Donot cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

A believer was saved by faith, through the benefits of the old covenant in that covenant. The publican believed God, his words, in the terms of that covenant. He received its protection. That's why the text says the law was a protector, until Christ.

The publican rationalised away the terms. It's akin to saying, following the example of the serpent , "Did God really say if you broke one law you broke them all? That's not reasonable!"

Bump.

 

[Xavier Cane]

Hello brothers and sisters,


In light of my views that the Lord must change the heart/give us faith, do the initial work in salvation, how can I reconcile Salvation in the OT prior to Christ and the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer.

OT heroes were looking forward to the foreshadowing of the messiah to come, and had faith in God. Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:16

Since the Holy Spirit, was not poured out till after Christ accomplished his work on the cross. and since man needs the Lord to open the eyes and ears of the individual in order that they can believe, How were OT believers saved?

Is the opening of the heart/eyes/ears not the work of the Spirit? Was the spirit indwelling the believer in the OT?

They were saved the same way we are saved today, by faith and faith alone. The difference was that the old testament believers had to look forward to the coming future redeemer. We in the new age must look back to what Christ did for us. In the old testament, each and every animal sacrifice was a type of Christ. A type of atonement. The saints of that time would have to sacrifice an innocent animal (most times it was a lamb), which represented The Lord Jesus Christ. But the Blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sin. It only covered it. BUt when Jesus Christ came, he would as John the Baptist said, "take away the sin of the world".

So again, all people and for all times will be saved the same way, as God is always the same and never changes, nor does his way of salvation. Justification by faith is the oldest doctrine in the universe as it is the doctrine upon which all others are built.

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

....You would have to convince me that we've still not reached new creation state evn partialy to place it all on a level playing field.....

2 Corinthians 5:17
So then if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold, they have become
new.
Galatians 6:15
For neither is circumcision anything nor uncircumcision, but a new creation is what matters.​

The OT people recieved forgiveness from God that was subject to time, ie: from year to year: as the pattern that wasn't fulfilled until Christ.

Circumcision counts for nothing, we could have 10,000 governors but none would impart the life of Christ into us. Only that which has life can impart life. 1 Corinthians 4:15 Therefore life is in the hearing recieved thru qualified teachers in the rhema word. 1 Corinthians 2:1-5

1 Corinthians 9 explains the expansion in the body of Christ, the new creation under the Head. Even tho it begins as an OT governed life, that passes away in identification with death. New life is imparted by the hearing of the Word.

Revelation 3:18, Ecclesiastes 9:8
There's a fragrance to the teaching that is breathed in. The OT incense was a picture of that yet to come. The OT's salvation foreshadowed the salvation of the Lord.

When Christ went to visit the prisoners during the time of His death, it's debatable whether to the angels that had lost their station or to the OT saints. I'm more inclined to believe it was to the fallen angels to announce the victory over death and that satan's plan had at that very moment failed. Matthew 10:28

The bema seat of Christ remains for all, including all the kingdom people. 2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 14:10, Romans 14:12, 1 Corinthians 4:4-5, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, Matthew 16:27, Revelation 22:12, Hebrews 10:27, Hebrews 10:30

That's where I see the levelling of the playing field.

 

[bling]

I would like to add to what you are saying, and possibly answer the question.

In Gal. 3:16 Paul writes: "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." This tells me that Paul implies Abraham understood God to mean that Christ was Abraham's seed, in the promise He gave him in Gen. 15:5-6, where it says "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." This implies that all OT saints believed in the future Messiah, as I also think Heb. 11 testifies. Therefore, it is not generic faith that justified them, but faith in Christ, even though they did not yet know Him.

This would be the same for the tax collector. I get that Jesus is addressing attitude in this passage to show the Pharisees that their self-righteous attitude doesn't justify them. Jesus simply isn't telling the whole story here, namely why the tax collector:
1. Sees his own sin as horribly sinful
2. Grieves over his sin
3. Humbles himself before God
4. Hopes that God will be merciful to him
5. Believes that God heard his prayer (with hope in a Messiah he doesn't yet know - this is how he could believe that God heard)
6. Most likely has been satisfied in believing God's forgiveness by receiving a personal response from God such as an affirmation

Although #6 is not necessary for a forensic justification, it would be necessary for the experience of it. It would depend on whether Jesus meant that he went home justified without knowing it, or justified having known it.
TD

Scripture gives us only very veiled references for Abraham concerning the Christ to come to any conclusion about the Christ, so it is a huge assumption he understood much more than the messiah was coming through his seed. Abraham is commended for his “faith” and not his faith in a particular savior, who takes his sins away.

I specifically choose the Tax Collector because he is not a Hero of the Old Testament, but just a big time sinner wanting forgiveness. The Old Testament prophets tell the Jewish people what they needed to do in order to receive forgiven and the Tax Collector was doing what the prophets said to do. If you go back to what the prophets said: “to obtain God’s forgiveness”, you do not find a reliance on the Messiah Savior mention, so did they have to have this knowledge?

 

[brightlights]

Well, Presbyterianism is strictly speaking a system of church polity. Some Presbyterians are Arminian.

I know of no Presbyterian church that is arminian. What do you have in mind?

What he is edging closer to is Calvinism, and Calvinists come in all three "flavors" of church polity (some are Episcopal, mainly low church Anglicans, but there was a suppressed Calvinist faction in the Catholic Church, the Jensenists, and in India, there is a Mar Thoma Reformed Church which broke off of the Syriac Orthodox Church; many are Presbyterian, and many are Congregationalist).

I mean to contrast Presbyterianism with Baptistic Theology. @PrettyboyAndy would already call himself a Calvinist, but he is a reformed Baptist. Baptists, I think, are particularly unequipped to understand the continuity of the church between the Old and New Testament. And so Presbyterian Ecclesiology can help explain the work of the Spirit in the OT, but Baptist Ecclesiology cannot.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Again you're venturing closer and closer to Presbyterianism with these questions...

Yes believers in the OT were regenerate and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Are you saying a 'permenant' indwelling by the Holy Spirit or a temporary filling of the Holy Spirit? And no one was regenerated before Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

In the parable of the “Tax Collector and the Pharisee” Luke 18: 9-14, we find two Jewish individuals living prior to the cross and Jesus said “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God.” How can that be, since the Tax collector is not putting his faith in Christ (Jesus does not give that as the reason for his justification.)? Jesus also says the Pharisee was not justified before the Lord and Jesus does not say God decided arbitrarily to justify the tax collector and not to justify the Pharisee, so what did they do differently?

It is because the tax collector was humble and humbled himself before God. The Pharisee was thanking God he was not a big sinner like the rest of the sinners.

These seem to be parables to prove a point.

1Then Jesus told them a parable about their need to pray at all times and not lose heart:

9To some who trusted in their own righteousness and viewed others with contempt, He also told this parable:

 

[ToBeLoved]

Not sure how you would view Luke 1:15. Says he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Filling is not indwelling.

 

[brightlights]

Are you saying a 'permenant' indwelling by the Holy Spirit or a temporary filling of the Holy Spirit? And no one was regenerated before Christ.

wrong

 

[ToBeLoved]

wrong

What an informative answer. Lol.

Explain why it's not indwelling in the OT

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

What an informative answer. Lol.

Explain why it's not indwelling in the OT

Tmi

 

[brightlights]

What an informative answer. Lol.

Explain why it's not indwelling in the OT

I mean you're wrong when you say that OT believers were not regenerate. They certainly were.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I mean you're wrong when you say that OT believers were not regenerate. They certainly were.

Scripture to support that?