Salvation in the OT before Christ, without the Spirit?

[PrettyboyAndy]

Hello brothers and sisters,


In light of my views that the Lord must change the heart/give us faith, do the initial work in salvation, how can I reconcile Salvation in the OT prior to Christ and the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer.

OT heroes were looking forward to the foreshadowing of the messiah to come, and had faith in God. Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:16

Since the Holy Spirit, was not poured out till after Christ accomplished his work on the cross. and since man needs the Lord to open the eyes and ears of the individual in order that they can believe, How were OT believers saved?

Is the opening of the heart/eyes/ears not the work of the Spirit? Was the spirit indwelling the believer in the OT?

 

[brightlights]

Hello brothers and sisters,


In light of my views that the Lord must change the heart/give us faith, do the initial work in salvation, how can I reconcile Salvation in the OT prior to Christ and the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer.

OT heroes were looking forward to the foreshadowing of the messiah to come, and had faith in God. Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:16

Since the Holy Spirit, was not poured out till after Christ accomplished his work on the cross. and since man needs the Lord to open the eyes and ears of the individual in order that they can believe, How were OT believers saved?

Is the opening of the heart/eyes/ears not the work of the Spirit? Was the spirit indwelling the believer in the OT?

Again you're venturing closer and closer to Presbyterianism with these questions...

Yes believers in the OT were regenerate and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

 

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

The holy spirit was active in the OT. It just wasn't permanent like it is now. As david said lord please don't take my holy spirit away. So it could come and leave a person like it left King Saul.

 

[bsd058]

The Holy Spirit was with OT believers and even indwelt them (John the Baptist from Birth), but not in the same sense that he indwells us now.

As an example of this, we know that David had the Holy Spirit, for he asked God not to take him from him (Psalm 51).

However, we must remember that Cornelius (Acts 10) was devout (regenerate in the same way David was), but did not have the Holy Spirit sent to him yet in the NT sense (as shown by him receiving the Spirit after Peter preached the gospel).

So, yes, the Holy Spirit was with believers in the OT times, but not in the same sense that he is with us today.

 

[Soyeong]

Hello brothers and sisters,


In light of my views that the Lord must change the heart/give us faith, do the initial work in salvation, how can I reconcile Salvation in the OT prior to Christ and the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer.

OT heroes were looking forward to the foreshadowing of the messiah to come, and had faith in God. Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:16

Since the Holy Spirit, was not poured out till after Christ accomplished his work on the cross. and since man needs the Lord to open the eyes and ears of the individual in order that they can believe, How were OT believers saved?

Is the opening of the heart/eyes/ears not the work of the Spirit? Was the spirit indwelling the believer in the OT?

You might find this article interesting about the role of the Holy Spirit in the OT:

http://our-hope.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/HolySpiritOT.pdf

 

[St_Worm2]

The holy spirit was active in the OT. It just wasn't permanent like it is now. As david said lord please don't take my holy spirit away. So it could come and leave a person like it left King Saul.

Like OK, wait ... what Why do you refer to the Holy Spirit as an "it"? The Bible never does "He" is a Person, and is, in fact, God/the third Member of the Trinity.

The Father is "Spirit" as well .. i.e. John 4:24. Do you also refer to Him as an "it"?

Thanks!

--David

John 14
26 The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Acts 13
2 While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”


​

 

[tdidymas]

The Holy Spirit was with OT believers and even indwelt them (John the Baptist from Birth), but not in the same sense that he indwells us now.

As an example of this, we know that David had the Holy Spirit, for he asked God not to take him from him (Psalm 51).

However, we must remember that Cornelius (Acts 10) was devout (regenerate in the same way David was), but did not have the Holy Spirit sent to him yet in the NT sense (as shown by him receiving the Spirit after Peter preached the gospel).

So, yes, the Holy Spirit was with believers in the OT times, but not in the same sense that he is with us today.

Jesus said "when the Holy Spirit comes, He will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment." One way that the Holy Spirit is with us today unlike in OT times is that all nations are now experiencing this conviction (since Pentecost), unlike in OT times only a few in Israel experienced it.
TD

 

[Wordkeeper]

Hello brothers and sisters,


In light of my views that the Lord must change the heart/give us faith, do the initial work in salvation, how can I reconcile Salvation in the OT prior to Christ and the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer.

OT heroes were looking forward to the foreshadowing of the messiah to come, and had faith in God. Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:16

Since the Holy Spirit, was not poured out till after Christ accomplished his work on the cross. and since man needs the Lord to open the eyes and ears of the individual in order that they can believe, How were OT believers saved?

Is the opening of the heart/eyes/ears not the work of the Spirit? Was the spirit indwelling the believer in the OT?

Psalm 51
11Donot cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

A believer was saved by faith through the benefits of the old covenant in that covenant. The publican believed in the terms of that covenant. He received its protection. That's why the text says the law was a protector, until Christ.

The public an rationalised away the terms. It's akin to saying following the serpent , "Did God really say if you broke one law you broke them all? That's not reasonable!"

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Like OK, wait ... what Why do you refer to the Holy Spirit as an "it"? The Bible never does "He" is a Person, and is, in fact, God/the third Member of the Trinity.

The Father is "Spirit" as well .. i.e. John 4:24. Do you also refer to Him as an "it"?

Thanks!

--David

John 14
26 The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Acts 13
2 While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”


​

Sorry, did not mean that, my question is the Holy Spirits role in the OT

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

Jesus said "when the Holy Spirit comes, He will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment." One way that the Holy Spirit is with us today unlike in OT times is that all nations are now experiencing this conviction (since Pentecost), unlike in OT times only a few in Israel experienced it.
TD

Wow great point

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

The Holy Spirit was with OT believers and even indwelt them (John the Baptist from Birth), but not in the same sense that he indwells us now.

As an example of this, we know that David had the Holy Spirit, for he asked God not to take him from him (Psalm 51).

However, we must remember that Cornelius (Acts 10) was devout (regenerate in the same way David was), but did not have the Holy Spirit sent to him yet in the NT sense (as shown by him receiving the Spirit after Peter preached the gospel).

So, yes, the Holy Spirit was with believers in the OT times, but not in the same sense that he is with us today.

Okay so OT Salvation is the same in the sense that God initiates the work in salvation.

That initiation does that mean the believer is saved, or does it mean that God gives the faith, and enables the person to believe and be saved? OR are they already saved because of the initiating work, which saves them?

I would think it would be that the initiating work of the Holy Spirit in salvation, does not save the individual but gives them faith, so that they can believe.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[bsd058]

Okay so OT Salvation is the same in the sense that God initiates the work in salvation.

That initiation does that mean the believer is saved, or does it mean that God gives the faith, and enables the person to believe and be saved? OR are they already saved because of the initiating work, which saves them?

I would think it would be that the initiating work of the Holy Spirit in salvation, does not save the individual but gives them faith, so that they can believe.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

See here for a pretty good explanation of the Ordo Salutis.

Although I would challenge #7 on the Arminian column. Many of them don't believe that a person who remains in Christ is kept by the power of God alone.

The Calvinist column is more what you're interested in, though.

Remember, these are not temporal order, but logical order, in order that God receive all the glory.

 

[PrettyboyAndy]

See here for a pretty good explanation of the Ordo Salutis.

Although I would challenge #7 on the Arminian column. Many of them don't believe that a person who remains in Christ is kept by the power of God alone.

The Calvinist column is more what you're interested in, though.

Remember, these are not temporal order, but logical order, in order that God receive all the glory.

This is great! Thank you.

What about #2 prevenient grace, is that in the bible?

 

[bsd058]

This is great! Thank you.

What about #2 prevenient grace, is that in the bible?

Some will try to give proof texts for it, but generally these are based on bad translation (Titus 2:11 - compare KJV with NASB) and are often just flat out taken out of context, or else eisegeted into the text or begging the question.

IMO prevenient grace is not a concept that is in the Bible. Grace given is God's regenerating power to make us new creatures. To give us hearts of flesh and remove our hearts of stone. Actually, if you think upon it enough, every step of the Ordo Salutis is grace toward us (unmerited favor). If grace were given to all then all would be saved. If grace were prevenient (if it only allowed an unregenerate man governed by the flesh to be able to believe), then no one would be saved since those who are governed by the flesh cannot please God.

 

[bling]

Hello brothers and sisters,


In light of my views that the Lord must change the heart/give us faith, do the initial work in salvation, how can I reconcile Salvation in the OT prior to Christ and the Holy Spirit indwelling the believer.

OT heroes were looking forward to the foreshadowing of the messiah to come, and had faith in God. Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness. Genesis 15:16

Since the Holy Spirit, was not poured out till after Christ accomplished his work on the cross. and since man needs the Lord to open the eyes and ears of the individual in order that they can believe, How were OT believers saved?

Is the opening of the heart/eyes/ears not the work of the Spirit? Was the spirit indwelling the believer in the OT?

The same way Abraham was saved by the same saving faith, we are saved today by .

Ro. 4: 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.

In the parable of the “Tax Collector and the Pharisee” Luke 18: 9-14, we find two Jewish individuals living prior to the cross and Jesus said “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God.” How can that be, since the Tax collector is not putting his faith in Christ (Jesus does not give that as the reason for his justification.)? Jesus also says the Pharisee was not justified before the Lord and Jesus does not say God decided arbitrarily to justify the tax collector and not to justify the Pharisee, so what did they do differently?

 

[98cwitr]

Isaiah 63:11
Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people— where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,

I think this proves that the Holy Spirit was still sent among the people in the OT. Now, the question is, was that then to assume their salvation? Or simply guidance?

 

[pilgrimage]

The Holy Spirit was with OT believers and even indwelt them (John the Baptist from Birth), but not in the same sense that he indwells us now.

As an example of this, we know that David had the Holy Spirit, for he asked God not to take him from him (Psalm 51).

However, we must remember that Cornelius (Acts 10) was devout (regenerate in the same way David was), but did not have the Holy Spirit sent to him yet in the NT sense (as shown by him receiving the Spirit after Peter preached the gospel).

So, yes, the Holy Spirit was with believers in the OT times, but not in the same sense that he is with us today.

Indwelling was not possible before Pentecost. The Spirit that was upon the OT believers could be likened more to a cloak or mantle covering. John the Baptist could be said to have the same mantle/cloak as Elijah

 

[bsd058]

Indwelling was not possible before Pentecost. The Spirit that was upon the OT believers could be likened more to a cloak or mantle covering. John the Baptist could be said to have the same mantle/cloak as Elijah

Not sure how you would view Luke 1:15. Says he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[pilgrimage]

Not sure how you would view Luke 1:15. Says he was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Good point. He has the Nazarite vow according to that verse (sanctified) before birth. That was the wrong example to use obviously since that was a miracle birth

 

[bsd058]

Good point. He has the Nazarite vow according to that verse (sanctified) before birth. That was the wrong example to use obviously since that was a miracle birth

What about Numbers 27:18 which states that Joshua had the Spirit in him?

Further, didn't Jesus chide Nicodemus for not understanding that the Holy Spirit makes one born of the Spirit? Jesus told him that this was something he should have known...even before the NT Scriptures were written.