salvation in the blue lagoon...

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seremela06

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what if, hypothetically, there was a family (say, Blue Lagoon :p) stranded on an island in the middle of the ocean. the parents die leaving the children there alone. they grow up on this island and live happily until they die of old age. they never hear about Jesus and his sacrifice and therefore can never accept Christ. is it their fault? would they go to heaven or hell?
 

HuntingMan

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what if, hypothetically, there was a family (say, Blue Lagoon :p) stranded on an island in the middle of the ocean. the parents die leaving the children there alone. they grow up on this island and live happily until they die of old age. they never hear about Jesus and his sacrifice and therefore can never accept Christ. is it their fault? would they go to heaven or hell?
Does any possible answer mean that those who HAVE heard the gospel and rejected it will be saved in the end anyway ?
 
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seremela06

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Does any possible answer mean that those who HAVE heard the gospel and rejected it will be saved in the end anyway ?

what? what does that have to do with the OP? the basic idea is that these people never have a chance to hear the gospel... do they go to heaven or hell?
 
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Rajni

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what if, hypothetically, there was a family (say, Blue Lagoon :p) stranded on an island in the middle of the ocean. the parents die leaving the children there alone. they grow up on this island and live happily until they die of old age. they never hear about Jesus and his sacrifice and therefore can never accept Christ. is it their fault? would they go to heaven or hell?

Seeing as the power of salvation lies in what Christ did for us, rather than what we think/believe about it, I figure they'll make out just fine. If it were otherwise, they -- rather than Jesus -- would be savior.


.
 
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HuntingMan

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what? what does that have to do with the OP? the basic idea is that these people never have a chance to hear the gospel... do they go to heaven or hell?
Apparently it didnt have anything to do with your question...sorry, there was just enough in the question to make me wonder if this wasnt just one more Universalism thread :)
I wasnt sure if the question was loaded or not since it does have the characteristics of a baited question.

The fact is NONE of us are qualified/authorized to make claims one way or another in the matter you are asking about.
Only God knows if He has some manner of getting the Gospel to those who have no possible way of coming into contact with missionaries.

Thats about as far as Im willing to go on that point since the last time I made the mistake of offering some hypothesis/conjecture on the matter it was made into a terribly huge deal that it should never have become.
 
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Armistead

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Well, this has happened to the majority of man, if you start at the point
Christ made the statement he is the only way. It took hundreds of years
for the gospel slowly to spread, thousands before it spread throughout the world. Even today many never hear. Millions have died never hearing the gospel.

There is only one way into heaven..Jesus Christ. The bible states of no other way. That leaves two options. They die and suffer eternal torture
or they are saved through Christ after death.

Men make up many doctrines for those that haven't heard, thus they deny the biblical truth that Christ is the only way. For children, they use
"age of accountability." For others, they will say "God is just and will judge correctly." or that they will be judged on how that accepted his creation, works, ect.. All of these ignore the fact that Christ said he would reconcile all powers, kingdoms, ect...to the father. The truth and third option is that God will reconcile and save all of mankind in his order.

Anyway, that's the only two options biblically facing traditional thinking. Many are waking up and finding the biblical truth that God will save all of man. Check out the many threads going on about ET vs. UR.
 
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HuntingMan

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Seeing as the power of salvation lies in what Christ did for us, rather than what we think/believe about it,
Huh....see MY bible (all of the versions I use) says just the opposite...that OUR BELIEF is REQUIRED or we are condemned already.

He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Joh 3:18)


and he brought them forth outside and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all those in his house. And taking them along in that same hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he and all his family were baptized. And bringing them up into his house, he set a meal before them; and he rejoiced with his whole house, having believed in God.
(Act 16:30-34)
 
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HuntingMan

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That leaves two options. They die and suffer eternal torture
or they are saved through Christ after death.
No, that leaves YOU believing that those are the only two options...they arent.

God has spoken to LIVING men more than once since the beginning...you nor I have NO idea if He does not come to someone in those last minutes of life directly to speak about His Son *IF* they had no way of hearing the gospel otherwise.
Im sure many of us know about what is called 'death bed repentance' or similar. That could very well BE the Lord dealing with the person more than during the rest of their lifetimes.

There are OTHER possibilities as well...such as God NOT allowing His elect to be outside the realm of influence of the church to begin with making sure that they ARE presented with the truth so they can accept it. It MIGHT be that those two on this island are ones who would NEVER believe to begin with...you and I are NOT qualified to make that call.

There are MANY other options even if you dont accept them.

Your argument is conjecture entirely.

Anyway, that's the only two options biblically facing traditional thinking. Many are waking up and finding the biblical truth that God will save all of man. Check out the many threads going on about ET vs. UR.
And many are waking up to a lie that is in direct defiance of MANY clear scriptures that are actually IN context on the matter of eternal life and eternal condemnation.
 
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Rajni

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Huh....see MY bible (all of the versions I use) says just the opposite...that OUR BELIEF is REQUIRED or we are condemned already.
He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(Joh 3:18)


and he brought them forth outside and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved, you and your household." And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all those in his house. And taking them along in that same hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he and all his family were baptized. And bringing them up into his house, he set a meal before them; and he rejoiced with his whole house, having believed in God.
(Act 16:30-34)

Belief itself is a gift of God.

.
 
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Poverello78

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what if, hypothetically, there was a family (say, Blue Lagoon :p) stranded on an island in the middle of the ocean. the parents die leaving the children there alone. they grow up on this island and live happily until they die of old age. they never hear about Jesus and his sacrifice and therefore can never accept Christ. is it their fault? would they go to heaven or hell?

If God is Just, as I believe, He will never judge someone based on something they don't know. My opinion, which I can back up with reason, is that God judges people based on "the condition of their heart" and according to what they know or believe.

My conception entails the belief that God reveals Himself innately to all humans in some fashion and can therefore hold them accountable to a particular degree, and also that people who've never heard of Christ may still be saved through Him.
 
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Poverello78

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what? what does that have to do with the OP? the basic idea is that these people never have a chance to hear the gospel... do they go to heaven or hell?

HuntingMan was assuming an underlying, hidden motive to your question; something I've noticed he does almost invariably in every conversation I've read thus far.
 
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HuntingMan

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HuntingMan was assuming an underlying, hidden motive to your question; something I've noticed he does almost invariably in every conversation I've read thus far.
OH please....there are at least FOUR ongoing Universalism related threads going on in this forum...the way the question was asked ANYONE could have made that assumption.
 
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Poverello78

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OH please....there are at least FOUR ongoing Universalism related threads going on in this forum...the way the question was asked ANYONE could have made that assumption.

You may or may not be right, but making an assumption about motives only creates and/or fans the flames of dissension.
 
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Poverello78

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Look poster, instead of DERAILING yet anotehr thread why dont you firstly DROP IT and secondly GO read my first post in this thread (#2)..I was HARDLY being as offensive about the issue when *I* asked about it as YOU are trying to play off here.

I asked a VERY polite question to get a FEEL for the direction of the OP.
STOP making a federal case of it ...:thumbsup:

*IF* this WERE meant as another universalism thread, I wanted to know up front so I didnt waste my time with it. Apparently it wasnt. I apologized to the OP for the confusion....now move on please....

Sorry, I didn't see your apology; thank you for making it.

What did you think of my reply to the OP?
 
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Rajni

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That statement in no way nullifies the FACT that BELIEF is REQUIRED for salvation, as is REPENTANCE.
Revelation shows that even when facing Gods very wrath men STILL refuse to repent that they might be saved.

That statement wasn't meant to nullify anything.
Belief is a gift of God. If someone doesn't believe, it's because God hasn't given it to him to believe. He has mercy on whom He has mercy and He hardens whom He hardens. So if someone ends up not saved, it's because God chose not to grant it to them to believe.
 
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HuntingMan

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That statement wasn't meant to nullify anything.
Belief is a gift of God. If someone doesn't believe, it's because God hasn't given it to him to believe. He has mercy on whom He has mercy and He hardens whom He hardens. So if someone ends up not saved, it's because God chose not to grant it to them to believe.
Scripture shows conclusively that BELIEF is REQUIRED for salvation.
Regardless of the semantics or logical acrobatics attempted here those who do NOT believe, regardless of the 'origins' of belief, are already condemned as per CHRISTS own words.

Frankly, what is being presented is starting to sound more like a Calvinist than a universalist.
 
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revrobor

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what if, hypothetically, there was a family (say, Blue Lagoon :p) stranded on an island in the middle of the ocean. the parents die leaving the children there alone. they grow up on this island and live happily until they die of old age. they never hear about Jesus and his sacrifice and therefore can never accept Christ. is it their fault? would they go to heaven or hell?

How many threads have you posted this on? One's salvation does not depend on hearing anything about Jesus. Read Romans 1:18-23.
 
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Poverello78

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Scripture shows conclusively that BELIEF is REQUIRED for salvation.
Regardless of the semantics or logical acrobatics attempted here those who do NOT believe, regardless of the 'origins' of belief, are already condemned as per CHRISTS own words.

Frankly, what is being presented is starting to sound more like a Calvinist than a universalist.

Call this an ad hominem argument, I really don't care; someone needs to address your methods. As Descartes said, "when the foundation is undermined, the superstructure will collapse of itself"...

Scripture also "shows conclusively" that the communion bread is Christ's flesh, that we ought to hate our parents, that we must pick up our cross, that we must be born again, that we must give all we have to the poor and follow Christ, etc, etc, etc.

The truth of the matter is that, beyond a general faith in Christ, experience and reason should interpret the scriptures and not vice versa. That is, we cannot simply say "this is the literal interpretation of the scripture, and what it says is precisely the truth regardless of what experience or reason might tell us"--if we did that, we'd be saying that when Christ comes back we'll all suddenly turn into sheep and goats, which seems to be rather silly.

The way you interpret the scriptures appears to be extremely audacious and judgmental, even cocky and unforgiving at times. That may not be your heart, but that is how it appears. Nothing you're arguing seems to result from actual experience or even critical thinking--you're merely quoting scriptures, using your own personal interpretation as absolute fact, without giving any credentials for that interpretation or even acknowledging it as such.

Do you take the whole Bible to mean, literally, precisely what it says? If not, you are in fact promoting your own personal interpretation. It would therefore be reasonable and mature of you to state your ideas not as fact but as opinion. Do you understand this?

In light of this, I'd personally like to know: What is the actual basis of your interpretations?

Please, if you would, either justify your self-confidence or at least begin treating us as beloved brothers and sisters--both would be even nicer. I'm sure we can agree that Christ wants to do as much as the latter, no?
 
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HuntingMan

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Scripture also "shows conclusively" that the communion bread is Christ's flesh, that we ought to hate our parents, that we must pick up our cross, that we must be born again, that we must give all we have to the poor and follow Christ, etc, etc, etc.
Uh...actually the CONTEXT of the WHOLE, which is what *I* am talking about, doesnt actually show that we are to hate our parents, eat Christs literal flesh, etc. at all.

Like the others here you are seemingly making assertions based on a few SELECT passages/verses rather than examining the WHOLE of Gods word.

The WHOLE of Gods word CONCLUSIVELY shows that BELIEF is REQUIRED for salvation, just as I previously asserted.
Do you really want to do a study on UNBELIEF and the trouble that it has caused for man ?

.
 
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