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Salvation for the Dead

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by notforgotten, Jun 26, 2017.

  1. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    Do you suppose that every word of the conversation between Jesus Christ and the thief on the cross, is recorded in the Gospels? It would be foolish for anyone to suppose this! You are trying to argue from silence!

    Do you believe that Jesus Christ is Almighty God? If you do, then hear what He says about repentance:

    "REPENT and believe the Gospel" (Mark 1:15)

    "There were some present at that very time who told him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And he answered them, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” (Luke 13:1-5)

    "and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem" (Luke 24:47)

    Do you see what Jesus says here? REPENTANCE is a prerequisite for ANY sinner to be forgiven and have eternal life.
     
  2. notforgotten

    notforgotten Child of God Supporter

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    Otherwise, reconciliation will be made with atonement paid.
     
  3. notforgotten

    notforgotten Child of God Supporter

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    I enjoyed your story. Thank you for sharing.
     
  4. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    You are seriously deluded if you think that the Atonement of Jesus Christ will allow those who die without FIRST repenting of their sins, and somehow save them! This is what the Apostle Paul calls, "doctrine of DEMONS"!!!
     
  5. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth Supporter

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    I can see this going down a huge spiral. There are numerous scriptures and they have been posted in this forum many times and those that state that Christ Himself said that we are saved by faith, not by works, so that nobody can brag about saving themselves.

    Works is the outward proof of existing salvation..... not the acts that accomplish the salvation
     
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  6. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth Supporter

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    Really? Look closely at this short conversation between a sinner and his Savior.

    But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed have been condemned justly, for we are getting what we deserve for our deeds, but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come intok]">[k] your kingdom.”


    1/ “Do you not fear God
    Proverbs 9:10King James Version (KJV)
    10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

    2/ we indeed have been condemned justly,
    Admitting his sins and accepting his punishment as just.

    3/ but this man has done nothing wrong.
    Professing before men that Christ is sinless.

    4/ Jesus, remember me when you come into
    Seems that this could be accepted as repentance. One could say that the thief would have had to of known that be accepted into Christs kingdom would require a change in behavior.

    I think it's safe to say that this man, if he were to of lived after this, would have followed Christ as a devoted disciple and repentance can be assumed.

    Either way, it was sufficient for Christ to accept his plea for salvation.

    What would this thief have had to do for you to consider him repentant.
     
  7. disciple1

    disciple1 Newbie

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    Psalms chapter 49 verse 7
    No one can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for them
     
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  8. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Deuteronomy 7:25
    Which is ignorance or sophistry, for possessing things consecrated to idols was indeed a mortal sin, a capital crime (Deuteronomy 7:25; 12:3; Ex 32:20; 1Ch 14:12; Joshua 7:1-25) whether idolatry (which it indicates) or not, and thus these souls were executed, and were considered lost and in need of postmortem redemption, not mere deliverance from RC purgatory.
    Rather, the text clearly states that "under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain. (2 Maccabees 12:40)

    They knew why these souls were executed and thus knew what their sin was, and as Jews they knew this was a mortal sin. And thus the offering in 2Ma 12:42,43 was not in order that these souls may escape purgatory, but that they may see the resurrection (of the just), which souls in RC purgatory are assured of anyway.

    And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection. (2 Maccabees 12:43)


    Thus all you would have left with for an argument is special pleading, that even though these soldiers were slaim because of mortal sin, and even though the Jews accordingly treated these souls as lost, and hoped for a postmortem redemption for them, you must postulate that perhaps all or some of these souls repented at the last, and thus God slew repentant souls who made it into RC purgatory, and thus needed no indulgences in order to make it to the resurrection of the just, but needed such for a quicker release from their torments in RC purgatory.

    Its not much of an argument.
    Then you agree that this is false doctrine, even according to Rome, for she does not believe those in Hell can be delivered via expiation for sins.
    And I could say that you have no authority whatsoever to tell me I have no authority whatsoever to declare what is and what is not Scripture. But while neither Rome nor myself can claim to infallibly declare what is of God, based upon the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual infallibility, yet I can present my case based upon the evidential warrant for it, with its veracity depending upon that weight.

    But what is the basis for your assurance of truth? For it seems that the RC argument is that an assuredly (if conditionally) infallible magisterium is essential for determination and assurance of Truth (including writings and men being of God) and to fulfill promises of Divine presence, providence of Truth, and preservation of faith, and authority. (Jn. 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:13; Mt. 16:18; Lk. 10:16)\

    And that being the historical instruments and stewards of Divine revelation (oral and written) means that such is that assuredly infallible magisterium. Thus any who knowingly dissent from the latter must be in rebellion to God.

    Does this fairly represent what you hold to or in what way does it differ?
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  9. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    That is a very good and fair question. My answer would be that you go back to the beginning before all the chaos and confusion started and see what the first Christian preachers and teachers taught.

    In other words, what did they think of John 6 where Jesus says that one must eat His Flesh and drink His Blood for eternal life? Did they teach that this was only a metaphor, or did they believe in the literal understanding of Christ's words. Once you understand which one they believed, then it is reasonable to believe they learned this directly from the Apostles.

    For me, as a Protestant convert to the Catholic faith, there is another factor. It is the Covenant of God and the principles which make up a functioning covenant. When I examined the various Protestant ideas and saw that they did not make one or more points of the covenant, then that pointed me elsewhere.
     
  10. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    So far, this is wrong.

    With a wrong premise, nothing right can follow.

    (so I didn't get any further in your post)
     
  11. Light of the East

    Light of the East Orthodox Inquirer Supporter

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    Why is it wrong? If Jesus taught the Apostles, and they in turn taught the first preachers of the Church the true meaning of Christ's words, how could it be wrong?

    You make a statement, but you need to defend your statement.
     
  12. Der Alte

    Der Alte This is me about 1 yr. old. Supporter

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    That is a link to Wiki. Wiki is about as reliable as the scribbles on a public facility wall. There are multiple [edit] links in every article, anybody can post, change, delete anything without review. Every early church father who quotes or refers to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it to be factual. Now let the specious objections begin, "The ECF are not scripture" etc.
    .....Seems like we can believe anything posted at Wiki by an anonymous person but Christian writers in the early church can not be believed.

    •– Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Against Heresies Book II [pupil of Polycarp, who was a pupil of John the apostle]
    ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
    In that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position, and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him — [Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table. [He tells us] also of the answer given by Abraham, who was acquainted not only with what respected himself, but Dives also, and who enjoined those who did not wish to come into that place of torment to believe Moses and the prophets, and to receive the preaching of Him who was to rise again from the dead.
    •– Tertullian [A.D. 145-220.] Treatise on the Soul
    ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
    In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality. For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
    •– Tertullian On Idolatry
    ANF03. Latin Christianity: Its Founder, Tertullian - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
    Thus, too, Eleazar in Hades, (attaining refreshment in Abraham’s bosom) and the rich man, (on the other hand, set in the torment of fire) compensate, by an answerable retribution, their alternate vicissitudes of evil and good.
    •– Clement Of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor “
    There was a certain man,” said the Lord, narrating, “very rich, who was clothed in purple and scarlet, enjoying himself splendidly every day.” This was the hay. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
    •– Cyprian (A.D. 200-258) Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
    Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  13. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    No, the text does not state that they are in hell, the text does not state that the people who prayed for them knew that they were in hell, nor does the text state that they prayed for them so that they may see the resurrection of the just. You are simply making things up out of thin air.

    No, you have not established that they are in hell. Of course we know that objectively idolatry is grave sin, but grave sin is not the only requirement for a sin to be mortal. The other two factors are known only to God, and that is why God only and no man knows who is in Heaven and who is in Hell.

    Then I agree that what is a false doctrine? Purgatory? I think you already know my answer to that.

    Sure you can. But the evidence is against you. That is your problem. Please feel free to start a new thread on this topic.

    14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly:
    15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.​
     
  14. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    Well it has been discussed to death on this forum already. That is something we can agree on.

    James 2:24, not so much.
     
  15. PeaceB

    PeaceB Well-Known Member

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    It is certainly more reliable than the speculative pontifications of a random person on the internet. The Synod at Jamnia never existed. The tooth fairy also does not exist. And the Old Testament canon of Scripture was not closed during the time of Christ. Prove otherwise.

    So St. Athanasius is your authority, and you believe that his letter in A.D. 367 indicates that the letter to the Hebrews was accepted by the early Catholic Church, because the letter indicates that the letter to the Hebrews is part of the Canon. Good. Then you also agree that Baruch is the inspired word of God, because the very same letter lists Baruch as among the inspired Old Testament books. If you PM me I will be glad to recommend a few good stores to you where you can go and pick up yourself a copy of the complete Bible, the Catholic Bible.

    And since St. Athanasius and the early Catholic Church is the source for your beliefs, then you also believe in the Catholic doctrine of the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, which was believed by St. Athanasius and virtually everyone else within the early Catholic Church. If you provide me your address I will be glad to recommend a few good churches where you can attend Mass this weekend.
     
  16. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The complete fulfillment of the mission of Jesus Christ is to save those who would accept the salvation offered. Those who rejected it are not forced. Your scheme is that everyone, even those who reject God, will be saved, even if those who reject God are dragged to heaven kicking and screaming. How does THAT complete anything?
     
  17. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Because it seems that Jesus thought that the time to decide for the Kingdom was before one died. That is the opportune time. That is the only time for decision. After death is judgment, which is definitive and permanent. People, read what Jesus had to say about hell. He was not warm and fuzzy about everyone being saved. He even said the road to hell was wide and the road to heaven was narrow.
     
  18. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Catholics have one belief in different approaches. What is true for a Latin Rite Catholic has always been presumed to be true for an Eastren Rite Catholic and vise versa.
     
  19. Yanni depp

    Yanni depp Est. 1986

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    Not sure if anyone touched on this given the dozens of responses.

    Ephesians 2:8
    For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

    Luke 7:50
    And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

    Matthew 9:2
    And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."

    If we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ, then with someone who has seen the literal pits of hell, there would be no faith required when the truth is right in front of you. Id have to disagree with salvation for the dead.
     
  20. Ron Gurley

    Ron Gurley What U See is What U Get!

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    RESPONSE to POST #9: "...prayers for the dead (in Purgatory) are Scriptural..."

    ONLY an out of context passage in 2 Maccabees 12:38-46 even IMPLIES that!

    "Apocrypha" are works, usually written works, that are of unknown authorship, or of doubtful authenticity, or spurious, or not considered to be within a particular "canon". The word is properly treated as a plural, but in common usage is often singular.

    Why the "Apocrypha" should not be part of the "Bible"!
    Historically, it was removed and later included in the "canon" by the RCC!

    The Roman Catholic Church (RCC) did not officially canonize the Apocrypha until the Council of Trent (1546 AD). This was in part because the Apocrypha contained material which supported certain Catholic doctrines, such as: 1. "purgatory", 2. "praying for the dead", and 3. the "treasury of merit".

    Reasons why the Apocrypha does NOT belong in the Bible!

    The Apocrypha: Is it scripture? | carm

    POST #2 Q1: "So, you believe there is no hope for the dead? "

    A1: There is no "hope" for the UNSAVED dead...UN-believers.

    Hebrews 9:27 (NASB)
    And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to "die" (body/soul combo) once. and after this comes "judgment",(of their SPIRITS!

    1 PETER 4 (NASB)...Paul:to BELIEVERS!
    4 In all this, they (UN-BELIEVERS) are surprised that you do not run with them into the same excesses of dissipation, and they malign you;
    5 but they will give account to Him who is ready to JUDGE the living and the dead.
    6 For the "gospel" (JESUS the Divine Messiah has COME!) for this purpose been preached even to those who are dead, that though they are JUDGED in the flesh as men, they may live in the SPIRIT according to the "will of God".

    Q: "And why does Jesus hold the keys to hell if the door cannot be opened?"
    A: UNBELIEVERS ONLY pass through the "door" into the eternal spiritual realm of the "lake of fire". Revelation!

    Revelation 1:18...Jesus:..and the living One;
    and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore,
    and I have the keys of "death" and of "Hades".

    POST# 14: Q1: "How do we know what is Scripture and what is not?"

    FIRST CANON: ~394 AD of NT by spirit-led men with original MSS + very accurate copies.
     
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