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Featured Salvation for the Dead

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by notforgotten, Jun 26, 2017.

  1. GirdYourLoins

    GirdYourLoins Well-Known Member

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    I cant remember the chapter and verse but I think there is a scripture that speaks of Jesus giving a chance to those in Hades (defined as a holding place rather than Hell which is eternal, I remember someone preaching on this and using a number of verses to prove the point but ant remember them now) to accept Him only for those that did not have the chance to accept Him in this life. We all get a chance to accept Him. If we choose not to accept Him i this life that is it, chance gone, but if God never gave the chance for people to accept Him them He does not exclude them. I dont believe that happens any more though and all are given the chance to know Jesus in this life since the gospel has been preached around the world. There are stories to back this belief up such as Muslims in Muslim countries who have had divine revelations of Christ and I remember one story about a remote Amazon (I think) tribe that met a missionary and had received a divine revelation of Jesus including Him dying on the cross. When missionaries arrived they said they had been waiting for someone to arrive to tell them Jesus name.

    I also believe that we are created in Gods image. Would you want people to like and love you because they have no choice in the matter and have been made to love you, or do you want people to choose you? I believe this trait in us to want people to choose us is a reflection of the image/character of God. I wont go into free will or pre-destinaion here, its sufficient to say He will know who will choose to accept Him and who wont.
     
  2. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    Hi, the Teachings of the Bible are our only true Guide on all matters, and not on our own thinking and feelings, or understanding.

    We know from the Bible that God is Just, and cannot make any mistakes. Therefore, those who are meant to be in heaven, will be there, and those in hell, will be there. After a person dies there is NO HOPE. I ask you to provide ONE Scripture that says otherwise. I know 100% for a fact that there is not ONE.

    All of mankind is fallen, which is clear from Scripture, "ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23). "“None is righteous, no, not one...no one seeks for God...no one does good,
    not even one.” (Romans 3:10-12)

    The Bible also clearly says: "the wages of sin is death" (Roman 6:23), and that we all "MUST be born-again" (John 3:7, in context).God has to punish sin, which Jesus Christ as Himself borne on the cross for all mankind. However, Jesus says, "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3). Also, "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9). We have to "repent (that we are lost sinners before a Holy God) and believe (that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Way to heaven, and that He has paid the price for our forgiveness) the Gospel" (Mark 1:15). There is NO other way.

    Regarding those who have never heard the Gospel, we can be assured that God will make sure that Justice will be done, whatever that may be. We must NOT speculate as to what that might be, as we only have the Bible for our Guide and nothing else. What God has revealed to us, is what we are responsible for, nothing else. (Deut. 29:29)
     
  3. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Of the four last things you should have heard about as a Catholic, they are death, judgment, heaven, and hell. At death comes judgment, which is complete and final, after which one is irrevocably bound for heaven (with a possible interlude in purgatory), or irrevocably bound for hell. No options for changing direction. Read the words of Jesus about hell. He thought it was quite real and spent a lot of time on it. Far more than even the most 'hellfire and brimstone' preachers do.
    All mortal sins are a rejection of Jesus Christ, so in one sense yes. It's just that there are multiple ways of rejecting Jesus Christ so there are multiple mortal sins.
    Within the parameters of Catholic teaching, but clearly at the fringe, is the possibility set forth by Hans Urs von Balthazar, that hell is real but nobody is actually sent there. I think such a possibility is theoretical at best. And what if von Balthazar is wrong and hell is full of people who we didn't do a thing to help while they were still alive because we were so sure hell would be empty? No, it's wise to presume people are being sent to hell, or better sending themselves to hell every single day. What can you do today to change that? Who can you talk to today to bring the salvation of Jesus Christ to them? How can you pray for the living, in the time they have before they die, so that they accept the grace of Jesus Christ and be saved? Praying for those in purgatory is fine. But everyone in purgatory will eventually go to heaven. Praying for those now living who are on an express flight with a one way ticket to hell is more important.
     
  4. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    When the scriptures say that the gospel was preached to the dead, it was Christ, in spirit, going to the times of Noah, as Christ was outside the confines of time, and preaching through the Prophet, Noah, to the evil people who lived before the flood. At the time of this scripture being written, the souls were long dead and in prison.

    This is not Christ preaching to dead and lost souls as if they could some how find redemption.

    Christ appears as Himself in the OT a few times.

    From: Jesus in the Old Testament

    Jesus is first seen in the Old Testament as the person who appeared as “the Angel of the Lord” in his sudden confrontation with Sarah’s maidser- vant, Hagar (Gen 16:7).

    Other instances of Jesus’ appearances in the Old Testa- ment can be seen representatively in Genesis 22:11, 15, where it was the Angel of Yahweh who spoke from heaven to Abraham when Abraham was about to sacrifice Isaac, and stopped him from proceeding.

    Again, it was the Angel of Yahweh who appeared to Moses in the flame of fire in Exodus 3:2.

    it was also declared that he was no one less than “Yah- weh,” who spoke at that time, causing Moses to hide his face from him (Ex 3:6).

    Later, it was the same Angel of the Lord who appeared to the wife of Manoah (Judg 13:2-25), mother of Samson, whom she reported to her husband was indeed a “man of God” that had appeared to her.

    When Manoah asked for the “Angel of the LORD” to also appear to him as he had appeared to his wife, the Angel repeated the appearances and his conversations to him, after which he ascended in the flame of the altar (Judg 13:20), implying the sacrifice was in worship of the Lord himself! Moreover, this “An- gel” is regarded as a “Redeemer,” who saves Israel from evil (Isa 63:9).


    The event mentioned about "preaching to the dead" is an example of Christ acting in a time long before His incarnation, as Christ.

    The Bible is clear that once you have died, your future is set. Just look at the story of the rich man and the beggar, Lazarus.

    This article may clear things up too:

    Preaching to the Spirits in Prison

    The Bible clearly teaches that following death, there comes judgment (Hebrews 9:27). After one leaves this earth, there is no plan of salvation for him. The spiritual condition in which a person dies (prepared or unprepared) is that which he will possess at the time of the general resurrection (cf. Matthew 25:1-12). There is absolutely no evidence that there is a second chance for redemption following death.

    I know it would be all nice and fuzzy to think it was so but it is not.
     
  5. chevyontheriver

    chevyontheriver Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No time like the present to start. It is a long book, but the amazing thing is that it is so accessible. Almost every bookstore will have it. It's on-line too. What I would have given 40 years ago to have had it then. Catholics are often very ignorant of the Bible as well. The Catechism is keyed to the Bible so that it is easy to read one and find the same topic in the other. They reinforce each other.
     
  6. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    Hello, the biggest problem with post-death salvation, is that those who are dead will not have repented of their sins, which is a requirement FOR salvation. To assume that those in hades will be offered a "chance" to repent and have their sins forgiven is man-made wishful thinking, and not found in the Holy Bible. This whole thinking makes a mockery of sin, as it tells sinful people to live their lives as they please, committing every sin, with the knowledge that they could then have another "chance" to repent! As for those who never heard the Gospel of Salvation in Jesus Christ, we can be assured that the God of the Holy Bible is Just, and will do what is 100% Right. There is far too much speculation on the fate of the lost after death, and too much non-biblical nonsense that is being accepted by many. Stick to the Word of God, the Holy Bible, and you will never go wrong!
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2017
  7. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    It should be noted, that the Greek for "preached" in 1 Peter 3:19, is "κηρύσσω", which is the common word for "an announcement", and not "εὐαγγελίζω", which is the word used for the preaching of the Gospel of repentance, as used by Paul, "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel (εὐαγγελίζω): not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect." (1 Corinthians 1:17). This distinction is very important.
     
  8. SkyWriting

    SkyWriting The Librarian Supporter

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    Here's another one. God creates 1000 children. He let's them free.
    The ones that return to him are His. Not all return to Him.
    Letting go is important, becasue people like their freedom.
    If you create something with a choice to leave, some do.

    There is no "restoration" to slavery if a person is created free.
     
  9. GingerBeer

    GingerBeer Cool and refreshing with a kick!

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    Isn't hell the just punishment for those who resolutely and permanently turn away from God?
     
  10. PeaceByJesus

    PeaceByJesus Unworthy servant for the Worthy Lord + Savior

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    Actually what 2 Maccabees 12:38-46 teaches is contrary to Rome, since what is offered is prayers and sacrifice for souls who were slain because of their idolatry, even dying with idolatrous amulets on them. And with no indication of repentance, or anything that repentance before death was a condition for their sin offering, but which offering was in the hope that this mortal sin they died in would be put away that they may be part of the resurrection of the just.

    So Judas gathered his host, and came into the city of Odollam, And when the seventh day came, they purified themselves, as the custom was, and kept the sabbath in the same place. And upon the day following, as the use had been, Judas and his company came to take up the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers' graves. Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain. (2 Maccabees 12:38-40)

    All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid, Betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain. And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection:(2 Maccabees 12:41-43)


    But Roman theology holds that their is no hope for those who die in mortal sin, and that those in her purgatory are already assured of salvation, but indulgences are offered as part of a quick release program for such.

    As for "this practice seems to come from 2 Maccabees 12:38-46,"

    Jacques Le Goff (historian and prolific author specializing in the Middle Ages) finds regarding as prayer for the dead by Christians:

    ...it is of course true that beliefs and mentalities do not change overnight, so it should come as no surprise that we do find instances, particularly in the domain of popular belief, in which non-Christians prayed for the suffering dead in the other world....

    These practices developed around the beginning of the Christian era. They were a phenomenon of the times, particularly noticeable in Egypt, the great meeting ground for peoples and religions. Traveling in Egypt around 50 s.c., Diodorus of Sicily was struck by the funerary customs: "As soon as the casket containing the corpse is placed on the bark, the survivors call upon the infernal gods and beseech them to admit the soul to the place received for pious men. The crowd adds its own cheers, together with pleas that the deceased be allowed to enjoy eternal life in Hades, in the society of the good."

    "The passage cited earlier from the Second Book of Maccabees, which was composed by an Alexandrian Jew during the half-century preceding Diodorus's journey, should no doubt be seen against this background." It then becomes clear that at the time of Judas Maccabeus--around 170 s.c., a surprisingly innovative period—prayer for the dead was not practiced, but that a century later it was practiced by certain Jews. No doubt it is in relation to beliefs of this type that we should think of the strange custom described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:29-30: "Else what should they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?" This baptism for the dead was not the Christian baptism but rather the baptism received by Greek proselytes who converted to Judaism.

    The abundant epigraphic and liturgical evidence available for the first few centuries of the Christian era has often been used to prove that belief in Purgatory is very ancient indeed." But it seems to me that the interpretation goes beyond the evidence. The favors that God is urged to grant the dead essentially involve the pleasures of Paradise, or at any rate a state defined by pax et lux, peace and light. Not until the end of the fifth century (or the beginning of the sixth) do we find an inscription that speaks of the "redemption of the soul" of one who is deceased.

    The soul in question is that of a Gallo-Roman woman from Briord, whose epitaph includes the phrase pro redemptionem animae suae.s. Furthermore, the inscriptions and prayers make no mention of a specific place of redemption or waiting other than the one traditional since the time of the Gospels, the "bosom of Abraham." But in order for the idea of Purgatory to develop, it was essential that the living be concerned about the fate of their dead, that the living maintain contacts with the dead, not in order to call on them for protection, but rather in order to improve their condition through prayer.
    - The Birth of Purgatory By Jacques Le Goff. pp. 45,46 , transcribed using http://www.onlineocr.net.

    Aside from Roman theology here, 2 Mac is not Scripture, and Maccabees was even disputed or held in doubt among some notable RCs as being Scripture proper even for most of her own history, as redleghunter has partly substantiated. Moreover, despite the Holy Spirit recording approx. 20 prayers in Scripture, there are zero prayers here or anywhere in Scripture address to anyone else but God - except by pagans.

    Also, as for these Maccabean Jews being a faithful priesthood, a Jewish site tells us that the rededication of the Temple was,

    led by Judas Maccabeus, third son of Mattathias the Hasmonean, whose successors established the Hasmonean high priesthood dynasty. But which were not a valid high priesthood due to invalid lineage, (Genesis 49:10) being not of the lineage of David, as the Zadoks were, and their line ended up opening the door to the Roman conquest. Their control ended when Herod eliminated every male in the Hasmonean line. (Though The Herodian Dynasty had Hasmonean blood thru two sons and two daughters. through Mariamne.)

    Due to the unpopularity of its founders, Hanukkah itself came to be largely ignored within a few decades after its origins. Then when Rome’s crushing power began to be felt in Palestine, the people recognized in Hanukkah a message of hope that new Maccabees would rise and independence would be restored. - The Hasmonean Dynasty | My Jewish Learning


    As for the rest of your "one step further" theology, this is consequently further out than Rome's for Scripture nowhere manifests hope for those who died in their sins, but only speaks of two categories, saved and lost, sheep and goats, with their respective resurrections. And with the former going to be with the Lord at death or at His return (if they are alive then: Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17),

    And with the only suffering for believers that is manifestly taught as after this life being that of the judgment seat of Christ, which does not begin at death, but awaits the Lord's return, (1 Corinthians 4:5; 2 Timothy. 4:1,8; Revelation 11:18; Matthew 25:31-46; 1 Peter 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards (and the Lord's displeasure) due to the manner of material one built the church with, which one is saved despite the loss of such, not because of. (1 Corinthians 3:8ff)

    In contrast, the lost go to suffer in Hell at death, (Luke 16:19-31) in unquenchable fire, (Mark 9:43-45) to await their "resurrection of damnation" (after the first resurrection, "the resurrection of life:" John 5:29; Revelation 20:5,6) and their particular sentencing (based on the degree of accountability) at the great white throne judgment as souls whose names are not written in the Lamb's book of life. (Revelation 20:5,6)

    Furthermore, OT atoning sacrifices were provided for under the rubric of the day of (blood) atonement of Leviticus 16, which looked forward to Christ, and who provided the only atonement for sins. Believers may sacrificially work to redeem souls, but only Christ offered the atonement for sin which enabled forgiveness. (Romans 3:25; 5:11; 1John 2:22; 4:10)

    And thus we have the statement, that "as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Hebrews 9:27-28)

    Which means that both saved and lost will see their respective resurrections, and judgments, with Christ offering the only atonement for sin which enabled forgiveness, thus no only is the there no teaching that the lost have a second chance after death, but that there are no Maccabeean- type atonement for sins after the fulfilling atonement of Christ, which the OT sacrificial system prefigured. Thanks be to God.
     
  11. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    I see absolutely no scripture that indicates that this is, in any way, possible.

    1/ Once you die, you are sealed in your fate.
    2/ Works of any man are of no use, to even himself, as far as earning or achieving salvation.
    3/ I can do nothing, personally, to save any other human. It has to be their choice.
     
  12. notforgotten

    notforgotten Child of God Supporter

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    Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades." Christ descended into hell and saved Adam who was a prisoner in hell. Please read from our book of Catechism,

    635 Christ went down into the depths of death so that "the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live."484 Jesus, "the Author of life", by dying destroyed "him who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and [delivered] all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage."485 Henceforth the risen Christ holds "the keys of Death and Hades", so that "at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth."486

    Today a great silence reigns on earth, a great silence and a great stillness. A great silence because the King is asleep. the earth trembled and is still because God has fallen asleep in the flesh and he has raised up all who have slept ever since the world began. . . He has gone to search for Adam, our first father, as for a lost sheep. Greatly desiring to visit those who live in darkness and in the shadow of death, he has gone to free from sorrow Adam in his bonds and Eve, captive with him - He who is both their God and the son of Eve. . . "I am your God, who for your sake have become your son. . . I order you, O sleeper, to awake. I did not create you to be a prisoner in hell. Rise from the dead, for I am the life of the dead."487

    487 Ancient Homily for Holy Saturday: PG 43, 440A, 452C; LH, Holy
    Saturday, OR.

    The Lord's Passion was sufficient atonement for those in "Abraham's bosom" and the just who came before Him. Christ still holds "the keys of Death and Hades." There would be no keys for a door which could not be opened, even today.
     
  13. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    PLEASE do not take anything that you may read in "Catechisms", or "Homilies", or any other non-Biblical books, as what you can rely upon or hold to as being correct, they are NOT the Inspired Word of Almighty God!

    For the Old Testament accepted Books in the "Canon", as divinely Inspired, we have the 39 (or 22 by the Jews who use a different way to group them) Books as found in translations like the King James Version. The same number of Books is given by the Jewish Historian, Josephus, who was born not long after Jesus died; and then the Synod at Jamnia in A.D. 90, where the leading Jewish authorities met to consider the Books of the Old Testament and the canon, and again ONLY the 39 Books are considered as Scriptures. Maccabeus, and the others that are not included, and not the Word of God and will not give any teachings that are Inspired and will lead many to deception and destruction. PLEASE ONLY use the Holy Bible for Doctrines.
     
  14. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Do you believe that Adam was not a believer? That Adam is in the same place the rich man is. Or the same place the beggar is?
     
  15. notforgotten

    notforgotten Child of God Supporter

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    Christ atoned for those in hell when He descended there for three days.

    First of all, you know that Jesus taught us to love our enemies and to pray for them. Do you not believe that Jesus would do the same? Part of God's love for us is His grace and the salvation of our souls. It would not be any different for the dead in hell. God, sees and hears the perishing souls in hell. And, through Christ, has given us a way to share in His glory by helping them. Jesus does not hold the keys to a door that cannot be opened. Christ's atonement is not enough for those who died without faith. This is made clear in scripture. We have to be in good standing with God and Jesus and must offer up atonement (good works) for the dead who have died without faith. It is God who holds our good works and kindly distributes them. Good works can do nothing in our own hands. But good works in the Lord's hands can reach into the very depths of hell and save the most needy of souls. This is the will of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. That the souls in hell be saved as well. The gospel work of redemption is to be preached to all people in all places for all time. This is the God and His Son that few Christians know and understand. May the most loving of Christians believe the truth.

    2 Maccabees 12:46. Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.
     
  16. notforgotten

    notforgotten Child of God Supporter

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    There would be no door or key, if this was the case. It is symbolic of Christ being the life of the dead. He, by His will, can free those in hell.

    I have pointed out that we should not underestimate God's love.

    I have said no such thing. I do not deny the love God has for us. And by the way, animals have a free will too. Have you ever had a pet?

    Jesus would not have been "bitter" or angry towards Judas. He probably felt sorry for him. The ruinous fires of hell are undying for those who remain there. If you wish further discussion about this, could you please post scripture, so that I can see exactly what you are referring to. Thank you.
     
  17. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    It is VERY DANGEROUS for anyone to build their "theology" from books that are not inspired, and therefore not part of the received canon of the Holy Bible.

    One such example can be found in 2 Maccabees, which has been referred to above:

    "And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." (12:43-46).

    This is completely against what the Holy Bible teaches, and must be rejected. There is NO part of the entire Holy Bible, from Genesis to Revelation that teaches anything that this passage from 2 Maccabees does, that the dead can be saved, by their sins being forgiven in the afterlife.

    This is no hope for the living lost, for afterlife salvation, but a huge lie and deception from the father of lies, the devil himself. If, this teaching in 2 Maccabees was true, then surely Jesus Christ and Paul and some of the others would have mentioned it? It is not taught anywhere in the New Testament.
     
  18. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    notforgotten, I have a direct question for you. Why are you so concerned with the possibility of salvation for those who are dead? You are relying so much on a passage in 2 Maccabees, which is not taught anywhere in the Holy Bible, as received by the Jews and the greater majority of Christians. Just suppose for a moment that this passage is wrong, then what? Where else would you turn to for justification for this teaching?

    Thanks
     
  19. notforgotten

    notforgotten Child of God Supporter

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    Good point. Christ's gospel work of redemption is to be preached to all people in all places.

    Mathew 24:21. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

    It was also preached to the dead.

    1 Peter 4:6. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

    This completes Christ's gospel work of redemption. The hope for God's love is not limited to those of this world, but also exists in the next.
     
  20. Christodoulos

    Christodoulos Member

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    You are teaching what is FALSE here, and giving people a FALSE hope. The text in 1 Peter is NOT saying that the dead are preached to AFTER they had died, but the use of the Greek aorist tense clearly shows that the Gospel Message is what they had heard BEFORE, when they were still alive. You completely ignore what I have said, even though I have given textual and grammatical evidence, and continue to promote your pet "doctrines". This is quite shameful!
     
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