Salvation for Jews in the Holocaust?

[Yesha]

Do you think Anne Frank and the Jews persecuted in the Holocaust went to heaven? Did God pity them? Did any of them come to Christ during that time?

Is the manner in which a person dies or their unjust treatment by other human beings capable of fully atoning for their sin against a Holy God? The Scriptures teach that all mankind is under the curse of sin.

Romans 3:9-20 (ESV)

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
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Furthermore, the just penalty due sin is death.

Romans 6:20-23 (ESV)

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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But we also see that God, according to his mercy, has bestowed on a measure of mankind his everlasting love in order to display the riches of his grace.

Ephesians 2:1-10 (ESV)

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
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So then the means by which God saves sinners is through the free dispensing of his grace according to the good pleasure of his will. Apart from this, there is no other way to be reconciled to the Father. But we have assurance that all whom the Father has given to the Son will be raised up! There will not be, there cannot be a single member of his flock that will be cast out.

John 6:35-40 (ESV)

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
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We rest assured that whoever among the Jews persecuted by the Nazis was given to the Son was saved unto eternal life by the grace of God. Not a single sheep of His fold during that wicked time was lost. However, it is also a somber thing to know that the condemnation of mankind in sin is not relieved by temporal suffering. The infinite holiness of God demands a payment that he alone can satisfy. The cross is the most glorious display of the justice and mercy of God toward sinners and is the sole means by which God has reconciled a people to himself.

 

[nolidad]

So what? You do not need to believe that Jesus was the son of Joseph to be saved.

And Joseph was not his real father, btw.

That was for your benefit to single out the one person who is Messiah. There is no salvation since Pentecost apart from trusting in teh death burial and resurrection of Jesus as the full payment for your sins. Jesus was unknown as Messiah in the OT.

 

[nolidad]

You're going to have an awful long wait then because I never said that.
This is what I actually said,
"Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever. He is the Jehovah God of the OT and it is He that believers worshiped, exactly the same as we worship today".
"Exactly the same" is in reference to Jehovah, whom I seriously I hope you worship because Jesus is Jehovah.

Jesus is Jehovah the Son! The OT& saints were not aware that Jehovah had a son named jehovah. And BTW Jehovah is not a name, but a declaration of who God is! "Iam who I am".

That's truly astonishing arrogance to tell me that I wasn't saved when I clearly knew the Lord and received amazing revelations from the Holy Spirit.
But I also noticed you completely skipped over this scripture I posted.
Matt18v1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. 3“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus said nothing about knowing your theology, did he. All Jesus required to enter Heaven was to become like a child before his daddy, his heavenly daddy. What's so difficult about that?

4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.
I was that child. When the Lord came to me, I surrendered to his incredible and tangible love. And you have the gall to tell me that I wasn't saved.

then let me ask you directly. All you need is a yes or o answer! Have you placed your trust in the death burial and resurrection as the full payment for your sins as Gods Inspired Word is essential for salvation?

I fear you do not understand the point of that parable Jesus spoke about little children.
What causes you to believe you were saved as a little child? I am not doubting- but simply asking! There is not a whiff of arrogance in my questions or statements to you.

 

[solid_core]

Jesus was unknown as Messiah in the OT.

Even Abraham saw His day and rejoiced.

 

[nolidad]

Even Abraham saw His day and rejoiced.

Yes e did, but he was already dead and in the Spirit! Jesus day was Calvary!

 

[solid_core]

Yes e did, but he was already dead and in the Spirit! Jesus day was Calvary!

Jesus does not say that Abraham saw him when he was already dead. It would not fit into the context when Jesus said that He lived before He was born.

 

[nolidad]

Jesus does not say that Abraham saw him when he was already dead. It would not fit into the context when Jesus said that He lived before He was born.

Possible, it could also be when Abraham saw Jesus on the plains of Mamre. there are many probabilities as to the exact nature of what day it was. I do know Jesus' great day was clavary and then that Sunday, but it could mean another day!

I know Jesus was alive and well since eternity past! But He was not known as Jesus until HIs birth.

 

[solid_core]

Possible, it could also be when Abraham saw Jesus on the plains of Mamre. there are many probabilities as to the exact nature of what day it was. I do know Jesus' great day was clavary and then that Sunday, but it could mean another day!

I know Jesus was alive and well since eternity past! But He was not known as Jesus until HIs birth.

I am not sure what you mean by "not known as Jesus". And why do you think that the personal name is the most important thing about him.

 

[holo]

Couldn't agree more, it should really be a 'no-brainer', but for the little problem of religious indoctrination, for which Jesus saved his harshest criticisms.

May I ask, did toxic theology have anything to do with your becoming agnostic?

Good question. It's been a process that's taken years, and since I've already changed my mind about things, I try to keep it open, i.e. I'm not so sure what I'll believe in a year, five years, at the end of my life. I did lose faith in the classical view of salvation and particularly the idea of eternal torment, long before I lost faith altogether, and if I had still had the fear of hell I'm not so sure I would've dared to question other parts of the faith. So I guess that's proof for some that one better not challenge doctrine, because when you start to pick at the loose threads, you may risk unraveling the whole thing. But of all the things one may find in Christian doctrine, eternal torment for those who happen not to have heard the gospel is pretty much the one that makes the least sense. Losing faith was a horrible experience, but I did find comfort (and still do) in thinking that if God does in fact want to save me, he will. It won't depend on my ability (or fortune) to believe the exact right thing, it will truly be by grace. I still have some hope that what Paul preached and died for - that God is the saviour of all - is true. It was more the multitude of different and conflicting doctrines that made me question things, rather than one particular set of Christian beliefs. I figured basically, if this is true, how come it's so hard for believers to agree on what it is? I would expect God to make it more clearly known.

But maybe none of them have it right, maybe even the most learned (or enlightened) preacher truly sees it as a shadow or a distorted reflection. All I can do is try to be as honest as I can. Not that my good intentions will save me. I truly believe that if there is such a thing as salvation, that's God's work and nothing but. To me the gospel as preached by Paul is pretty much the most radical idea ever, and it's kind of hard to believe he just dreamed it up. I don't think any of us really appreciate how radical it is, that's why even believers will inevitably try to add works in one form or another, even if it's disguised as "well it's free, but you still have to actively receive it / feel some level of remorse / appreciate it / prove with your actions that you really believe it / keep it / "work on it," whatever.

 

[Francis Drake]

Jesus is Jehovah the Son! The OT& saints were not aware that Jehovah had a son named jehovah.

I never said Jehovah had a son named Jehovah and you know that.
I strongly advise you to do a search on "Jesus is Jehovah", there is no end of evidence. For centuries the church has lived off the fallacy that it was the "father" in the OT, and the "Son" in the NT, but that's just religious tradition with no scriptural validity.​

And BTW Jehovah is not a name, but a declaration of who God is! "Iam who I am".

Good point, lets look at that.
Jn8v57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”
58Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Look carefully at what Jesus said here. Using the last 2 words "I am" is a deliberate statement that Jesus is the "I AM" , the declaration of God, as found in the Law and the Prophets. The Jews fully understood what he was saying, and were enraged!
59Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
The fact that they tried to stone Jesus is proof that they knew Jesus was applying the name of God, the I AM for himself.
But it wasn't just using the I AM that offended them, it was declaring that He had been around before Abraham's time, again a claim to Godhood.

Isaiah 44:6 “Thus saith the Lord [Jehovah] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord [Jehovah] of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”
Who is the King of Israel? =Jesus
Who is the redeemer? =Jesus
Who is the first and the last? =Jesus
Who is the Rock of Israel? =Jesus and Jehovah
etc...……...
Go and search for yourself please.

then let me ask you directly. All you need is a yes or o answer! Have you placed your trust in the death burial and resurrection as the full payment for your sins as Gods Inspired Word is essential for salvation?

I have no intention whatsoever of answering that. If you take note of what I am saying, you will understand why I refuse. But one clue for you, the so called sinners prayer from Rom10. 9&10 was never aimed at unbelievers, but solely at the saints!

I fear you do not understand the point of that parable Jesus spoke about little children.

Then enlighten me my friend, but from everything you have said so far, it is you who don't understand otherwise you wouldn't have asked that yes/no question.

What causes you to believe you were saved as a little child? I am not doubting- but simply asking! There is not a whiff of arrogance in my questions or statements to you.

OK, I'll take that as a serious enquiry.
Did you read post No90? I explained there why nobody gets born again by claiming your "Death burial, resurrection" theology.

 

[nolidad]

I am not sure what you mean by "not known as Jesus". And why do you think that the personal name is the most important thing about him.

Well in His pre-incarnate epiphanies, He did not go by the name Jesus.

I never said His name is the most important thing about HIm, but it is the only name that brings Salvation!

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

His name is above all other names!

 

[nolidad]

I never said Jehovah had a son named Jehovah and you know that.
I strongly advise you to do a search on "Jesus is Jehovah", there is no end of evidence. For centuries the church has lived off the fallacy that it was the "father" in the OT, and the "Son" in the NT, but that's just religious tradition with no scriptural validity.

YOu didn't I did! His name was not Jesus before His incarnation! He was the Memrah/Jehovah Sabaoth.

Isaiah 44:6 “Thus saith the Lord [Jehovah] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord [Jehovah] of Hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”
Who is the King of Israel? =Jesus
Who is the redeemer? =Jesus
Who is the first and the last? =Jesus
Who is the Rock of Israel? =Jesus and Jehovah
etc...……...
Go and search for yourself please.

You are incorrect. Jehovah, the King of Israel, is the Father! See the conjunctive "and"? That means a second person is also speaking. Who is it? Jehovah sabaoth Who is Jesus.
together they declare they are the first and last besides them there is no god.

That is the proper grammar.

I have no intention whatsoever of answering that. If you take note of what I am saying, you will understand why I refuse. But one clue for you, the so called sinners prayer from Rom10. 9&10 was never aimed at unbelievers, but solely at the saints!

So you refuse to declare whether ou are a believer or not? That is truly sad.

Then enlighten me my friend, but from everything you have said so far, it is you who don't understand otherwise you wouldn't have asked that yes/no question.

And if you love Jesus and are trusting his death and resurrection, it should be no trouble for you to answer! Why are you afraid to answer?

OK, I'll take that as a serious enquiry.
Did you read post No90? I explained there why nobody gets born again by claiming your "Death burial, resurrection" theology.

Well I will look at post 90 again, but you need to know that no one enters teh kingdom unless they confess with their mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in their heart that God phjysically raised Him from the dead. Everythin else is what Paul warned of in Galatinas 1.

 

[Sketcher]

It doesn't get much more righteous by being torment as opposed to torture.

Yeah, sure God decides what happens to them. The question is if they actually deserve it. Do you think they do?

As you said, God is the one who decides what they deserve. Therefore, his judgment cannot be wrong. Therefore, if he judges that someone deserves eternal torment, he cannot be wrong to do so.

 

[solid_core]

Well in His pre-incarnate epiphanies, He did not go by the name Jesus.

I never said His name is the most important thing about HIm, but it is the only name that brings Salvation!

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

His name is above all other names!

To say that "this name brings salvation" is an idiom. In reality, the person of Jesus, his death and resurrection, brings salvation. The power itself is not in the name, in its letters. You surely noticed that all over the world his name is written and pronounced very differently.

So people in the OT and everybody in the pagan world were saved by faith in death and resurrection of God's son. They did not need the precise knowledge of His personal name.

 

[Francis Drake]

So you refuse to declare whether ou are a believer or not? That is truly sad.

Truly sad? I'm touched you care.
Never for one moment have I said I am not a believer, your pre programming just means you never register what I actually say.
But FYI, despite your repeated claims it's not possible unless I jump through your silly hoops, I first heard the Lord speak to me in the early 1960s.
Since then I have enjoyed a wonderful relationship with Him, and as the scriptures indicate, being led by his spirit in wisdom, dreams, visions and prophecy.
One day you will learn how your dogma is blinding you to the fullness of what Jesus did.

And if you love Jesus and are trusting his death and resurrection, it should be no trouble for you to answer! Why are you afraid to answer?

Afraid? That's hilarious.
You are not in the least scary, nor is your theology scary to anyone who lives close to the Lord.

Well I will look at post 90 again, but you need to know that no one enters the kingdom unless they confess with their mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in their heart that God phjysically raised Him from the dead.

That utterly contradicts what Jesus said to the disciples.​

Matt18v1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who then is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2Jesus invited a little child to stand among them. 3“Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus said we need to change and become like little children, not change to learning your perfect theology.

4Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5And whoever welcomes a little child like this in My name welcomes Me.
The reason that Jesus's little child, or Rahab, Noah, Abraham, Cornelius, those at John's baptism etc. (Plus of course, the believing Jews in the Holocaust) are in the kingdom of heaven has absolutely nothing to with making your foolish confession.
I would much rather believe Jesus that you!

Everythin else is what Paul warned of in Galatinas 1.

Funny man, you clearly didn't read Galatians before saying that.

 

[nolidad]

As you said, God is the one who decides what they deserve. Therefore, his judgment cannot be wrong. Therefore, if he judges that someone deserves eternal torment, he cannot be wrong to do so.

What seems to be forgotten by both of you is that everyone person ever born deserves to be cast into the lake of fire! None are righteous.

Those of us saved are saved by the mercy and grace of God alone!

 

[nolidad]

To say that "this name brings salvation" is an idiom. In reality, the person of Jesus, his death and resurrection, brings salvation. The power itself is not in the name, in its letters. You surely noticed that all over the world his name is written and pronounced very differently.

So people in the OT and everybody in the pagan world were saved by faith in death and resurrection of God's son. They did not need the precise knowledge of His personal name.

Not really:

Acts 4:
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

In its usage when one calls upon a name they are calling upon the authority and power of that name!

Romans 10: 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

We misuse that term- they used it as meant!

 

[nolidad]

Truly sad? I'm touched you care.
Never for one moment have I said I am not a believer, your pre programming just means you never register what I actually say.
But FYI, despite your repeated claims it's not possible unless I jump through your silly hoops, I first heard the Lord speak to me in the early 1960s.
Since then I have enjoyed a wonderful relationship with Him, and as the scriptures indicate, being led by his spirit in wisdom, dreams, visions and prophecy.
One day you will learn how your dogma is blinding you to the fullness of what Jesus did.

Once again I ask: Do you trust in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the only and full payment for your sins as is demanded by the Inspired Word of God?

Everything else is irrelavent until this is answered, no matter what kind of dreams, visions and revelations you may or may not have had!

Afraid? That's hilarious.
You are not in the least scary, nor is your theology scary to anyone who lives close to the Lord.

Then why don't you identify with His death and resurrection? If not fear is it arrogance that I would dare ask you that simple question? BTW it is not my "theology" but Gods Inspired word that demands the only way mencan be saved!

The reason that Jesus's little child, or Rahab, Noah, Abraham, Cornelius, those at John's baptism etc. (Plus of course, the believing Jews in the Holocaust) are in the kingdom of heaven has absolutely nothing to with making your foolish confession.
I would much rather believe Jesus that you!

Well you rignorance notwithstanding- OT saints porior to Pentecost were saved by faith, but not in Jesus, for He had not been revealed yet. But since Pentecost- no one can be saved apart from placing their full trust int the death, burial and physical resurrection of Jesus as the full payment fo their sin debt before God the Father- no matter how much of the twister game you wish to play here!

 

[Francis Drake]

Once again I ask: Do you trust in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the only and full payment for your sins as is demanded by the Inspired Word of God?

You get so hot under the collar because I refuse to answer your silly questions.

Everything else is irrelavent until this is answered, no matter what kind of dreams, visions and revelations you may or may not have had!

It seems that Cornelius's visitation by angels was irrelevant to you. Cornelius didn't think so, but then you obviously know far more than he did.

Then why don't you identify with His death and resurrection? If not fear is it arrogance that I would dare ask you that simple question?

I told you, I'm not going to answer your foolish question. I have walked with the Lord since the 60s, following in the footsteps of Abraham, the example that the writer of Hebrews gave us.

BTW it is not my "theology" but Gods Inspired word that demands the only way mencan be saved!

Oh but it is your theology. What you are hammering me with is your Tree of Knowledge interpretation of scripture, missing the point completely.
Again I would direct you to the child that Jesus stood in the midst.
Jesus never demanded that child accepted your doctrine to get entry to the Kingdom of Heaven did he?

Well you rignorance notwithstanding-

My ignorance, what a hoot!
Your superior knowledge is so overwhelming.

OT saints porior to Pentecost were saved by faith, but not in Jesus, for He had not been revealed yet.

Their faith was in Jehovah, who was is and always will be Jesus.
Same as all who call on the name of the Lord today.

But since Pentecost- no one can be saved apart from placing their full trust int the death, burial and physical resurrection of Jesus as the full payment fo their sin debt before God the Father- no matter how much of the twister game you wish to play here!

You are perverting what the scripture actually says.
As I have said before, nobody gets born again by claiming to believe the message of the cross.

 

[holo]

As you said, God is the one who decides what they deserve. Therefore, his judgment cannot be wrong. Therefore, if he judges that someone deserves eternal torment, he cannot be wrong to do so.

Do you then agree with God that Anne Frank deserved the treatment she got in Auschwitz?