Salvation depends not on human will nor exertion, but it depends on God Only (Romans 9:16).

[black.hawk]

The subject title should be read like this: “Salvation depends not on human will nor exertion, but it depends on God who has mercy. Romans 9:16”

Like any examiner, God can still mark you down even though you may think that you deserved to pass the Day of Judgement - Since Judgement of the Living and the Dead, sheep and goats, wheat and tares, righteous and wicked, saved or unsaved are not strictly according to OBJECTIVE criteria, but nepotism or discrimination could well play a significant part in the Selection or De-selection procedure.

So the division of sheep and goats are not strictly according to OBJECTIVE criteria, but the selection or de-selection process is partly based on SUBJECTIVE criteria - Since God reserves prerogative powers, and discretionary powers to mark you down if he doesn’t like you, or conversely, he can still pass you even though you have failed - As by definition, God’s grace is (Always) “grace undeserved” since no one is worthy of God’s mercy (Romans 3:23).

Ultimately, only God can KNOW whether you have passed or failed - Since the division of the sheep and goats is largely based on SUBJECTIVE as opposed to any OBJECTIVE criteria, and God would make his choice according to such criteria.

Discuss.

 

[Soyeong]

The subject title should be read like this: “Salvation depends not on human will nor exertion, but it depends on God who has mercy. Romans 9:16”

Like any examiner, God can still mark you down even though you may think that you deserved to pass the Day of Judgement - Since Judgement of the Living and the Dead, sheep and goats, wheat and tares, righteous and wicked, saved or unsaved are not strictly according to OBJECTIVE criteria, but nepotism or discrimination could well play a significant part in the Selection or De-selection procedure.

So the division of sheep and goats are not strictly according to OBJECTIVE criteria, but the selection or de-selection process is partly based on SUBJECTIVE criteria - Since God reserves prerogative powers, and discretionary powers to mark you down if he doesn’t like you, or conversely, he can still pass you even though you have failed - As by definition, God’s grace is (Always) “grace undeserved” since no one is worthy of God’s mercy (Romans 3:23).

Ultimately, only God can KNOW whether you have passed or failed - Since the division of the sheep and goats is largely based on SUBJECTIVE as opposed to any OBJECTIVE criteria, and God would make his choice according to such criteria.

Discuss.

I see no support in the Bible that God judges subjectively, where He judges against people because He doesn't like them or passes people on whim, but rather God is a righteous judge.

 

[RC1970]

The subject title should be read like this: “Salvation depends not on human will nor exertion, but it depends on God who has mercy. Romans 9:16”

Like any examiner, God can still mark you down even though you may think that you deserved to pass the Day of Judgement - Since Judgement of the Living and the Dead, sheep and goats, wheat and tares, righteous and wicked, saved or unsaved are not strictly according to OBJECTIVE criteria, but nepotism or discrimination could well play a significant part in the Selection or De-selection procedure.

So the division of sheep and goats are not strictly according to OBJECTIVE criteria, but the selection or de-selection process is partly based on SUBJECTIVE criteria - Since God reserves prerogative powers, and discretionary powers to mark you down if he doesn’t like you, or conversely, he can still pass you even though you have failed - As by definition, God’s grace is (Always) “grace undeserved” since no one is worthy of God’s mercy (Romans 3:23).

Ultimately, only God can KNOW whether you have passed or failed - Since the division of the sheep and goats is largely based on SUBJECTIVE as opposed to any OBJECTIVE criteria, and God would make his choice according to such criteria.

Discuss.

Wow, that is a very bizarre way of looking at election.

Why is it that only God can know whether you have passed or failed?

 

[black.hawk]

I see no support in the Bible that God judges subjectively, where He judges against people because He doesn't like them or passes people on whim, but rather God is a righteous judge.

Then, you need to read Romans 9:16 more carefully:

Salvation depends on God who has grace.

By definition, this implies that God will have the Final say on Judgement day as regarding the Salvation of individuals. He would use his discretionary powers to divide the sheep and goats.

Whereas, the old covenant is characterised by the letter of the Law the new covenant is characterised by the Spirit of the Law:

Romans 3:20 - Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Strictly speaking, the law would condemn everyone without exception, but God's grace entails bending the rules to save those who would be condemned by the Law - Which requires subjectivity on his part.

 

[black.hawk]

Why is it that only God can know whether you have passed or failed?

Because your own viewpoint may well be different from God’s viewpoint, but God alone will decide whether or not a person has passed or failed on the day of Judgement.

Since salvation depends not on human will nor exertion, but it depends (solely) on God who has mercy. Romans 9:16

 

[RC1970]

Because your own viewpoint may well be different from God’s viewpoint, but God alone will decide whether or not a person has passed or failed on the day of Judgement.

Since salvation depends not on human will nor exertion, but it depends (solely) on God who has mercy. Romans 9:16

"Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." ~ 2 Peter 1:10-11

Is Peter wrong?

 

[Light of the East]

What if you have it wrong? What if the Day of Judgment is not pass/fail, but rather to see what you will receive for your choices in life? By this I mean that Romans 5:18 appears to teach that all mankind is saved and restored to God through the work of Christ. The Orthodox view of the next life is that all will be in the presence of God.

Some will find it joy.

Some will find it torment.

It is not a question of God being subjective. Subjectivity deals with emotion. God is passionless. He deals with fact, not emotion, not feeling, not subjectivity. The facts will be that if you have not become like Christ in this life, what the Orthodox Church refers to as "theosis," then all that in you which is not like Christ will be burned by the fire of His love, and it will HURT! How much one is like Christ has nothing to do with subjectivity...it will be factual matter.

Be like Christ, enter into union with Him and enjoy His presence.

Be unlike Christ, enter into His presence and be tormented.

The ontological fact of your being will determine how you experience the next life, not any subjectivity.

 

[Doug Melven]

Because your own viewpoint may well be different from God’s viewpoint, but God alone will decide whether or not a person has passed or failed on the day of Judgement.

Since salvation depends not on human will nor exertion, but it depends (solely) on God who has mercy. Romans 9:16

Romans 9 is talking about God choosing Israel as a nation to show His glory.
Then at the end of the chapter Paul starts talking about believing to be made righteous and that trying to be righteous by keeping the law will not work.
And as for not knowing, God's Word says we can know. 1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

 

[Basil the Great]

Yes, Calvin found justification in Scripture for his position, but his view is the minority one within Christianity.

 

[Winken]

There is only one view within Christianity. All else is endless discussions.

 

[black.hawk]

Yes, Calvin found justification in Scripture for his position, but his view is the minority one within Christianity.

But that doesn't mean to say that the majority viewpoint is correct, either.

Argumentum ad populum is a fallacy of reasoning.

 

[Basil the Great]

No, but Romans 9:16 is still valid regardless of 2 Peter 1:10-11 - Since this has everything to do with God’s Sovereignty, which must take precedence over Peter.

Oth

But that doesn't mean to say that the majority viewpoint is correct, either.

Argumentum ad populum is a fallacy of reasoning.

You are correct. The majority viewpoint is not necessarily the correct one. This is true with almost everything in life and in faith as well.

 

[RC1970]

No, but Romans 9:16 is still valid regardless of 2 Peter 1:10-11 - Since this has everything to do with God’s Sovereignty, which must take precedence over Peter.

Oth

But that doesn't mean to say that the majority viewpoint is correct, either.

Argumentum ad populum is a fallacy of reasoning.

But, don't you agree, that it is because God is Sovereign over salvation, that we can be sure of our calling and election?

 

[Soyeong]

But you provide no Bible quotes to support any of this.

Psalms 7:11 God is a righteous judge, and a God who feels indignation every day.

 

[black.hawk]

Psalms 7:11 God is a righteous judge, and a God who feels indignation every day.

Righteous does not imply the absence of subjectivity.

His subjective judgement of the Living and the Dead entails inequality between individuals, and the unequal treatment of individuals - But there is nothing wrong with this according to Scripture. Romans 9:21

 

[black.hawk]

"Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." ~ 2 Peter 1:10-11

Is Peter wrong?

No, of course not; but all of this is contingent as to whether or not one has fulfilled the conditions to receive his grace for the purpose of election; but any "breach of contract" would render the contract voidable, which means that God would not be bound by his covenant, either.

 

[black.hawk]

But, don't you agree, that it is because God is Sovereign over salvation, that we can be sure of our calling and election?

God foreknew those who are called and chosen long before the world was created. Romans 8:28-30

He is Sovereign over salvation since every event is preordained.

 

[black.hawk]

There is only one view within Christianity. All else is endless discussions.

I disagree. Since there are literally thousands of different denominations all of whom disagree in one way or another.

 

[fhansen]

The subject title should be read like this: “Salvation depends not on human will nor exertion, but it depends on God who has mercy. Romans 9:16”

Like any examiner, God can still mark you down even though you may think that you deserved to pass the Day of Judgement - Since Judgement of the Living and the Dead, sheep and goats, wheat and tares, righteous and wicked, saved or unsaved are not strictly according to OBJECTIVE criteria, but nepotism or discrimination could well play a significant part in the Selection or De-selection procedure.

So the division of sheep and goats are not strictly according to OBJECTIVE criteria, but the selection or de-selection process is partly based on SUBJECTIVE criteria - Since God reserves prerogative powers, and discretionary powers to mark you down if he doesn’t like you, or conversely, he can still pass you even though you have failed - As by definition, God’s grace is (Always) “grace undeserved” since no one is worthy of God’s mercy (Romans 3:23).

Ultimately, only God can KNOW whether you have passed or failed - Since the division of the sheep and goats is largely based on SUBJECTIVE as opposed to any OBJECTIVE criteria, and God would make his choice according to such criteria.

Discuss.

Actually Matt 25:31-46 describes some pretty darn objective criteria. Certainly more so than pure election, or basing His choice on whether or not "He doesn't like you". As we grow in the knowledge of God we come to know that He loves all passionately, but doesn't force us to return the favor, deserving as He is of it. In the end you're right though; only He knows with 100% certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life and whose are not.

 

[Spirit Child of God]

No offense to you my spirit brother, but whom do you believe God will have mercy upon? Those who hate and despise him, or those who love and adore him in spirit and truth? Of course, God loves all of us and wants to save us all, but he will definitely punish the wicked and evil; else why is the reason for hell?