Salvation by grace through faith?

[Moses Medina]

Need some thoughts on this exerpt from Clement of Rome to the Corinthians.

Ill post the entire chapter (32 I believe). Granted i have a whole lot to read still but as a Lutheran this stands out to me.

"Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him.130 For from him131 have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh.132 From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, “Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.”133 All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever amen"

 

[Halbhh]

Need some thoughts on this exerpt from Clement of Rome to the Corinthians.

Ill post the entire chapter (32 I believe). Granted i have a whole lot to read still but as a Lutheran this stands out to me.

"Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him.130 For from him131 have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh.132 From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, “Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.”133 All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever amen"

Echoing Paul in Ephesians 2 --

4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[Moses Medina]

Echoing Paul in Ephesians 2 --

4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Thank you for posting Scripture. I am aware of these as I am a Lutheran. I am im particular looking for a Orthodox Christian answer.

 

[truefiction1]

Need some thoughts on this exerpt from Clement of Rome to the Corinthians.

Ill post the entire chapter (32 I believe). Granted i have a whole lot to read still but as a Lutheran this stands out to me.

"Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him.130 For from him131 have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh.132 From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, “Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.”133 All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever amen"

Is something bothering you about what is written here?

 

[Moses Medina]

Is something bothering you about what is written here?

A Lutherans we hold to Justification by grace through faith. We hold that the fathers teach this and it is our central theological message. We call it the foundation, the most important article of faith.

It doesnt bother me but I have been reading this is not the Orthodox position.

 

[truefiction1]

A Lutherans we hold to Justification by grace through faith. We hold that the fathers teach this and it is our central theological message. We call it the foundation, the most important article of faith.

It doesnt bother me but I have been reading this is not the Orthodox position.

But it is the Orthodox position. It's just that we define "grace" in the way that the fathers have defined it as opposed to how so many reformation thinkers defined it.

 

[Sam91]

As a non-EO may I please ask how you guys define it? I am possibly tainted by the way it has been explained to me and would like to hear in a simple way how else it is defined.

(I like to read the Bible with an open mind knowing that man fails, trusting that the Lord will teach what I need and when it is needed. However, one ought to understand what biases I have been taught. So that is the motive for the question.)

 

[HTacianas]

Need some thoughts on this exerpt from Clement of Rome to the Corinthians.

Ill post the entire chapter (32 I believe). Granted i have a whole lot to read still but as a Lutheran this stands out to me.

"Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him.130 For from him131 have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh.132 From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, “Thy seed shall be as the stars of heaven.”133 All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever amen"

If i understand your question, it is important, perhaps most important, to note that it reads "we are not justified by ourselves ". All those things the witer mentions, "their righteous ", "their works", are not what justified them alone. All those things were necessary for their justification, but without the grace of God those things alone were not sufficient.

It takes all those things, in cooperation with grace, to justify.

 

[ArmyMatt]

A Lutherans we hold to Justification by grace through faith. We hold that the fathers teach this and it is our central theological message. We call it the foundation, the most important article of faith.

It doesnt bother me but I have been reading this is not the Orthodox position.

the idea of grace through faith is totally Orthodox. however, it is not grace through faith ALONE. that is where Luther (and a lot of Protestants) get it wrong. that phrase is not found in Scripture. faith, because it is hope for things unseen, is living, active, and dynamic. works flow from faith, which is why faith without works is dead.

 

[ArmyMatt]

As a non-EO may I please ask how you guys define it? I am possibly tainted by the way it has been explained to me and would like to hear in a simple way how else it is defined.

grace is God's divine and uncreated energy, which is Himself at work within and outside of creation.

 

[~Anastasia~]

If i understand your question, it is important, perhaps most important, to note that it reads "we are not justified by ourselves ". All those things the witer mentions, "their righteous ", "their works", are not what justified them alone. All those things were necessary for their justification, but without the grace of God those things alone were not sufficient.

It takes all those things, in cooperation with grace, to justify.

That's actually what jumped out to me too - because I'm familiar with how our Church works in community - we are all part of each other in many ways. There is a saying - "We are all saved together. But a person goes to hell on his own." There's more than one meaning tied up in that little saying.

But I'm not a theological expert on that point*. It's just that I am living it and recognize it.


(ETA *or on any point lol)

 

[truefiction1]

As a non-EO may I please ask how you guys define it? I am possibly tainted by the way it has been explained to me and would like to hear in a simple way how else it is defined.

(I like to read the Bible with an open mind knowing that man fails, trusting that the Lord will teach what I need and when it is needed. However, one ought to understand what biases I have been taught. So that is the motive for the question.)

Grace, to us, is "the Holy Spirit", or God's energy at work in our souls. The fathers often talk of grace and the Holy Spirit as being the same thing. Without grace, or in other words, without the Holy Spirit; the Helper and Life-giver, we can't know God, whereas we know from Scripture that knowing God is the very definition of Eternal Life.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Grace, to us, is "the Holy Spirit", or God's energy at work in our souls. The fathers often talk of grace and the Holy Spirit as being the same thing. Without grace, or in other words, without the Holy Spirit; the Helper and Life-giver, we can't know God, whereas we know from Scripture that knowing God is the very definition of Eternal Life.

just to clarify, while grace always goes with the Spirit and the two are closely linked, the Spirit is not grace. He possesses the fullness of grace, and He operates closely with grace, but He is not grace Himself.

 

[truefiction1]

just to clarify, while grace always goes with the Spirit and the two are closely linked, the Spirit is not grace. He possesses the fullness of grace, and He operates closely with grace, but He is not grace Himself.

The uncreated energy (grace) is God. The fathers distinguish the uncreated energy from the uncreated essence of the Holy Trinity, but they never separate them. So I guess we could attempt to clarify by saying that the Holy Spirit Himself may not be grace, per-say, (yet in a sense it would be accurate to say the the Holy Spirit is grace, because God is both essence and energy) but grace is most certainly the Holy Spirit, moving and breathing in nature and within our very souls and bodies, and not some separate, created "thing".

 

[mark kennedy]

Just wanted to make a brief comment, all Christians believe in justification by grace through faith. Most of the disputes come down to ecclesiastical authority, not the gospel itself.

This is the first church council:

So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them (the Gentiles) by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Acts 15:8-9)​

Paul and Barnabas had just returned from their first missionary journey to the Gentiles in Cyprus and Galatia. The question was do Gentiles have to be circumcised. Unanimously the answer was no. At the preaching of Peter the Gentiles heard the gospel, believed, and recieved the Holy Spirit.

To him all the prophets witness that, through his name, whoever believes in him recieves the remission of sins. That's not a Protestant doctrine, its not a Pauline doctrine. Its the gospel and all Christians believe it.

Grace and peace,
Mark​

 

[ArmyMatt]

The uncreated energy (grace) is God. The fathers distinguish the uncreated energy from the uncreated essence of the Holy Trinity, but they never separate them. So I guess we could attempt to clarify by saying that the Holy Spirit Himself may not be grace, per-say, (yet in a sense it would be accurate to say the the Holy Spirit is grace, because God is both essence and energy) but grace is most certainly the Holy Spirit, moving and breathing in nature and within our very souls and bodies, and not some separate, created "thing".

He isn't grace since grace is natural and not hypostatic. the fact that both are Uncreated is not the issue. grace is not a person, but an aspect of nature. the 6th Ecumenical Council makes this distinction

 

[truefiction1]

He isn't grace since grace is natural and not hypostatic. the fact that both are Uncreated is not the issue. grace is not a person, but an aspect of nature. the 6th Ecumenical Council makes this distinction

Did I say that the Holy Spirit is grace? No, I don't think that I did. If that could be inferred from things I wrote then it was not intended. The Holy Spirit is not grace. but grace is God -- Father, Word, and Holy Spirit. I do understand your concern over assuring that the distinction between hypostasis and nature is maintained. But grace is the energy flowing from the essence (nature) of the Holy Spirit (or actually, of the Godhead). The energy is God. This what we are told. The Person is God. That is what we are told. All three: Person, essence, and energy are God. This is what we are told.

Seraphim of Sarov tells us that the aim of the Christian life is the acquisition of the Holy Spirit. But if salvation is by "grace", through faith, then he is wrong, according to your need to linguistically separate the two, to say that our aim is to acquire the Holy Spirit. Rather, he should be saying that our aim is the acquisition of Grace through the actions of the Holy Spirit. He therefor is making no distinction between the acquisition of the Holy Spirit and the acquisition of the grace of the Holy Spirit. To Him, there is no need to insist upon a constant linguistic separation of the Holy Spirit and the grace that flows from the essence of the Holy Spirit. Unless we search his writings and find that he carefully defines such a separation, I doubt that it is any more incorrect to say that "grace is the Holy Spirit" than it is to say that "the Divine energy is God". It would be wrong, of course, to say the the Divine energy is not God, God being the Father, Word, and Holy Spirit.

My point in this whole discourse is, that if Saint Seraphim and other Orthodox Christian saints, such as Silouan the Anthonite, can speak about the nature of salvation as though grace and the Holy Spirit are not separate (because while we distinguish between Person, Essence, and Energy we do not, cannot, separate these), then I don't mind using such language that is similar and sometimes identical to their's when answering questions posed by heterodox inquirers into Orthodox soteriology. Such language is simple and easy to understand. Sometimes this is important. That is why the writers of the Gospel tend to depict Christ as saying "receive ye the Holy Spirit", rather than "receive ye the grace of the Holy Spirit". It's not always necessary to "split hairs", so to speak. It's not always necessary to linguistically split grace from the Divine Person Who disperses it to us.

I do, however, appreciate your clarification of the distinction between Energy and Person. I hope that what I've laid out here is understandable to you.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Did I say that the Holy Spirit is grace? No, I don't think that I did. If that could be inferred from things I wrote then it was not intended. The Holy Spirit is not grace. but grace is God -- Father, Word, and Holy Spirit. I do understand your concern over assuring that the distinction between hypostasis and nature is maintained. But grace is the energy flowing from the essence (nature) of the Holy Spirit (or actually, of the Godhead). The energy is God. This what we are told. The Person is God. That is what we are told. All three: Person, essence, and energy are God. This is what we are told.

Seraphim of Sarov tells us that the aim of the Christian life is the acquisition of the Holy Spirit. But if salvation is by "grace", through faith, then he is wrong, according to your need to linguistically separate the two, to say that our aim is to acquire the Holy Spirit. Rather, he should be saying that our aim is the acquisition of Grace through the actions of the Holy Spirit. He therefor is making no distinction between the acquisition of the Holy Spirit and the acquisition of the grace of the Holy Spirit. To Him, there is no need to insist upon a constant linguistic separation of the Holy Spirit and the grace that flows from the essence of the Holy Spirit. Unless we search his writings and find that he carefully defines such a separation, I doubt that it is any more incorrect to say that "grace is the Holy Spirit" than it is to say that "the Divine energy is God". It would be wrong, of course, to say the the Divine energy is not God, God being the Father, Word, and Holy Spirit.

My point in this whole discourse is, that if Saint Seraphim and other Orthodox Christian saints, such as Silouan the Anthonite, can speak about the nature of salvation as though grace and the Holy Spirit are not separate (because while we distinguish between Person, Essence, and Energy we do not, cannot, separate these), then I don't mind using such language that is similar and sometimes identical to their's when answering questions posed by heterodox inquirers into Orthodox soteriology. Such language is simple and easy to understand. Sometimes this is important. That is why the writers of the Gospel tend to say "receive ye the Holy Spirit", and not "receive ye the grace of the Holy Spirit". It's not always necessary to "split hairs", so to speak. It's not always necessary to linguistically split grace from the Divine Person Who disperses it to us.

I do, however, appreciate your clarification of the distinction between Energy and Person. I hope that what I've laid out here is understandable to you.

my only thing was a point of clarity. the Spirit actively is sent with grace when grace is sent, and both grace and the Spirit work inseparately yet distinct. you did say grace is most certainly the Holy Spirit, which I don't think we can say.

 

[truefiction1]

my only thing was a point of clarity. the Spirit actively is sent with grace when grace is sent, and both grace and the Spirit work inseparately yet distinct. you did say grace is most certainly the Holy Spirit, which I don't think we can say.

I don't think that we can say that grace is not the Holy Spirit. Because if we did, we would be erecting a wall of separation between the Energy and the Divine nature of the Divine Person. We always distinguish between these, but never separate them. You yourself stated that grace is "God Himself at work within and outside of creation" (refer to your post #10 in this thread). We usually always associate this work with the Holy Spirit. It is therefor not really incorrect to say that grace is God, the Holy Spirit. But I absolutely get the point you're putting across here. There is a distinction between the Person and the Essence from which the Energy comes. But even the language in Holy Scripture does not treat the grace of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit Himself as separate things. Scripture, for example, will sometimes simply refer to the Holy Spirit as the living water that gives Life, even though we know that it is the grace of the Holy Spirit, which is the uncreated Energy of God, which gives this Life. I think this is why I deemed it perfectly okay to say that grace is the Holy Spirit Himself (in concert with the Father and Word, of course) working within and outside of creation, which, when it comes down to it, means just what you had already stated in response #10 to the OP.

 

[Lukaris]

I think I have the same translation of Clement as you which is in KJV style. In the version I have faith & works are preached in their contexts in chapters 14 & 15 which seem to conform to St. James in his Epistle.

Here is a link to chapters XIV & XV in a translation of 1st Clement. I am not good with cut & paste on an iPhone.

https://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/lbob/lbob15.htm


My post was a reply to the OP but did not display the OP.

I would also like to add that James 4:9 is referenced in the 3rd footnote to St. Clement in chapter XIV (14) which seems to bury “scholarship” claims that St. James Epistle was written in the second century since tradition says 1st Clement was written before 100 AD unless “scholarship” claims this is otherwise too. ( I do not disdain scholarship per se).