Salvation by faith that leads to evidence of salvation

EmSw

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Why all the anger? I am not attacking you. I NEVER said I don't want to follow His commandments. I DID say that God's commandments are good. I DID say I want to follow God's commandments. You never answered my question. How do YOU keep His commandments?

Believe me, I have no anger at all. What I find is questions like yours (How do YOU keep His commandments?), is strange for Christians to ask. How do you think Jesus would answer this question, since He is the One Who gave this command?

The answer all starts with love for Him. If you love Him, you don't question His commands. I don't know how else to say it. It depends on what is in your heart.

If our law says not to drive without a license, how does one keep that law? They take the prescribed courses, and take the test. So, how does one not steal? Decide in your heart you are not going to steal, and don't do it, no matter the circumstances.

I am happy you want to follow His commandments; that is the starting point.
 
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The below is my attempt to understand salvation by faith but why I do not accept it at the bottom because of other things Jesus said

John 5:38-40
38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life

I know this has been used to condemn the need to work with God for your salvation but that you just receive salvation in a moment but then people say you have not truly been saved if you are not changed. But they prayed exactly what they said. How then do you get saved? and if getting saved would make all things easy Jesus wouldn't teach you need to be watchful. I can see how John 5:38-40 can be interpreted to refer to us orthodox who believe we could perform any righteousness of our own to be worthy of salvation that not every believer can do. This is my attempt to understand salvation by faith but also at the end why I do not believe it and have trouble believing it. We must not give people false assurance they will be saved from their sins if they are not denying themselves daily

Jesus did say He has to be our Lord but He also said He is the Saviour of His people. We have to try to make Him our Lord but we won't be able to without receiving salvation as a gift. We receive salvation as a gift when we ask to make Him our Lord and Saviour so we are not trying to do away with the Law. Those who are saved will keep it. The gospel is fair for we are all sinners who have broken the law and will never do anything but break the Law no matter what we try. So what about willful sins? That person has rejected Jesus and needs to fear he will die before he is reconciled with God. What I am saying we do not have to fear because of sins of weakness we can lose our salvation. I mean the sins that we do which we hate as Paul said. If we have received salvation as a gift the promise is that Christ will deliver us from those sins. We may not be alive tommorow we have to accept salvation as a gift.

Paul said salvation is by grace lest any man should boast and Jesus teaches true faith leads to salvation

John 6:47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me[a] has everlasting life
John 5:24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

But I interpreted John 6:47 and John 5:24 to just mean Jesus way leads to heaven and when His Spirit is in you you are saved from your sins but you can lose salvation if you are not truly believing in christ evidence by salvation from sin. Because your mind is not renewed enough

I have thought the thoughts in the below paragraph but I still do not believe it is true that we do not have to discipline our own body but just have good understanding that does not continually need to be rekindled. I think our salvation is like a flame the fire of the Holy Spirit and our spiritual understanding it continually dies like a lamp but we have to keep putting oil to keep it alive so we may be alive. We are given greater understanding to keep us from further sin when we discipline our body. The end is that we have to overcome sins of the flesh. The wise always feared they do not have enough oil. Though having spiritual understanding helps fight sin we have to be constantly watchful and expecting the devil to try to make us fall in sin. And God wants us to be tested to prove that we love Him. And He gives enough chances.We must make the effort to not give into the sin that so easily ensnares us.

Paul says in Romans 8:4-5 the reason we can't live righteous is because we don't have spiritual understanding. We may have been renewed a bit and stayed away from sin for a bit and thought we were saved but actually we never fully had spiritual understanding or it would not be normal to sin. Maybe it happens but it is not normal. We could have lost spiritual understanding because of forgetfulness so Paul said to the Galatians they had fallen from grace. They accepted and believed it a bit initially so the Spirit worked in them but time tells how much they believed
So Paul said we must give careful heed to the things we have heard lest we drift away. Fighting sin may also help us gain spiritual understanding but we do it by directing our energies to learning the word of God and reading the word of God when away from sin may give greater spiritual understanding

Paul said nothing in our flesh is good
the desire to prove we can be righteous by our intention is sin.

Romans 8:3-8
"3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

Now here is why I do not believe salvation is by faith alone. As orthodox we do believe salvation is by faith alone that has works but it is not just about believing in Jesus and such faith must always be kept alive

Also I think the above is wrong because many times when we sin we do not fully hate the sin even though we know it is bad so it is like a willful sin because we enjoy the sin
we try to tell ourselves we hate it and excuse ourselves but we do not. We clearly do not hate the sin if we are not struggling hard against it but if we resist very hard and sin it is because we are still weak and not pure but we will try harder next time not to sin and we will overcome it if we really hate the sin

We have to fear we are not making enough effort to make Him Lord. Otherwise we are just excusing ourselves and placing the blame on God for not saving us. Christ has promised to save those who try and we should fear falling in sin too much will stop Him from giving us strength

How do you explain the below verses? and the book of revelations says we must be watchful. Jesus is saying to true believers they must be watchful because if the doorkeeper was watchful he would have been saved. If just being saved would keep you from sin without maintaining your salvation by reading the word why the need to be watchful?


Jesus never said His way was easy but rather narrow and difficult. He who says he knows God ought to walk as He walked.

It is up to us to deny ourselves daily and take up the cross daily.
Jesus said watch therefore for you do not know when your Lord is coming. It is up to us. If the doorkeeper had known what hour the thief would come he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.
Blessed is the man who endures temptation for he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. If God cuts off the olive branches which is also because the old covenant did not produce fruit He will also cut us off if we do not continue in His goodness because Jesus said the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
We need the fruit of self control. Just like the wise virgins we must always be worried that we do not have enough oil which is the fruit of the Holy Spirit in our lives. We can not rely on Jesus to save us if we are not doing our very best or not trying also to fight sin by renewing our mind because of our laziness

2 Peter 1:4-20
4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

No one and not one thing can bring harm to a person if he does not harm himself; and conversely, a thousand ways and means to salvation will not help the person who will not avoid sin
St Nikon of Optina

According to Titus 2:11-14, our salvation involves being saved from the penalty of our sins by Jesus giving himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness, but it also involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good and being trained to renounce doing what is ungodly, sinful, and Lawless. So there is an aspect of our salvation that has been complete that we receive as a free gift, but there is also an aspect of our salvation that involves ongoing training to be more like Christ is doing what is holy, righteous, and good, and refraining from doing what is sin.

To use an analogy, it is like someone giving us a free gift of a lifetime tuition at a college. The gift is ours in the sense that it has been paid for and belongs to us, yet at the same time there is an aspect of the gift that we need continue to attend that college for life in order to receive. Or if someone were to give you a movie as a free gift, then it would now belong to you and be in your possession, but it was not given to you for the purpose of taking up shelf space, so if it were to remain unopened on your shelf, then there would be an aspect in that you have not fully received the gift until you watch it. Jesus did not give himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness so that we would continue to sin, but rather we are made new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works in obedience to God (Ephesians 2:10).

While it is true that we are justified by faith alone apart from good works, faith is never alone, but is always associated with the desire to live in obedience to God's commands. Every example of saving faith in Hebrews 11 is also an example of someone living obedience to God's commands. However, it is not the obedience itself that saves, but rather we are saved by the faith that requires the obedience, and have received grace to bring about the obedience that faith requires (Romans 1:5).

It is also important to understand that God never require obedience to any of His commands for the purpose of becoming justified, but rather the one and only way that there has ever been to become justified is by faith. Abraham was justified by faith and by the same faith he lived in obedience to God's commands. According to John 8:56, Abraham saw Messiah's day and was glad, so everyone who was justified in the OT looked forward in faith in the promise of a redeemer, just as we look backward in faith.
 
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Believe me, I have no anger at all. What I find is questions like yours (How do YOU keep His commandments?), is strange for Christians to ask. How do you think Jesus would answer this question, since He is the One Who gave this command?

The answer all starts with love for Him. If you love Him, you don't question His commands. I don't know how else to say it. It depends on what is in your heart.

If our law says not to drive without a license, how does one keep that law? They take the prescribed courses, and take the test. So, how does one not steal? Decide in your heart you are not going to steal, and don't do it, no matter the circumstances.

I am happy you want to follow His commandments; that is the starting point.

The question I have is not one of desire, but of ability. I want to follow God's commandments with all my heart, I really do. Instead of answering here, answer in the other thread because we are duplicating replies. In the other post I ask about the "greatest" commandment.
 
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EmSw

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The question I have is not one of desire, but of ability. I want to follow God's commandments with all my heart, I really do. Instead of answering here, answer in the other thread because we are duplicating replies. In the other post I ask about the "greatest" commandment.

You have no ability to not murder? You have no ability to not lie? You have no ability to not steal? You have no ability to lust after your neighbor's wife? You are a dangerous person.

I will ask the same thing in the other thread.
 
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You have no ability to not murder? You have no ability to not lie? You have no ability to not steal? You have no ability to lust after your neighbor's wife? You are a dangerous person.

I will ask the same thing in the other thread.

I'm afraid it's a little more complicated than that.
The commandments go MUCH deeper than you mention. Let's just go with one. "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." Do you follow this commandment without fail every day of your life, with every decision that you make, every action that you take, and every thought that you have?
 
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EmSw

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I'm afraid it's a little more complicated than that.
The commandments go MUCH deeper than you mention. Let's just go with one. "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." Do you follow this commandment without fail every day of your life, with every decision that you make, every action that you take, and every thought that you have?

I am wondering why people have trouble loving God. They make so many excuses not to. You would think those with a new birth, leading of the Spirit, a renewed mind, a new heart, and a newfound love, they would have no problem loving God. But I see it isn't so. You would think they were haters of God.

So I ask you Apex, do you love God or do you hate Him? Do you hate Him without fail, with every decision you make, with every action you take, and with every thought you have?

If you are married, do you stop loving your wife? Does doing things against her mean you hate her? Do you ask for forgiveness if you do something against her? Do you love her with all your heart, even if you do something against her?

Now, let's get to the other commandments.
Do you really have no ability to not murder?
You have no ability to not lie?
You have no ability to not steal?
You have no ability to lust after your neighbor's wife?

Does your wife know you have no ability to keep from lusting after other women?
Do your children know you have no ability to keep from lying?
Does your employer know you have no ability to keep from stealing?
Do the police know you have no ability to keep from murdering?
Do you think you please God with no ability to keep His commandments?
Does it please the devil because you have no ability to obey God's commandments?
Who are you going to please?
Who do you think told you, you have no ability to keep God's commandments?
 
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I am wondering why people have trouble loving God. They make so many excuses not to. You would think those with a new birth, leading of the Spirit, a renewed mind, a new heart, and a newfound love, they would have no problem loving God. But I see it isn't so. You would think they were haters of God.

So I ask you Apex, do you love God or do you hate Him? Do you hate Him without fail, with every decision you make, with every action you take, and with every thought you have?

If you are married, do you stop loving your wife? Does doing things against her mean you hate her? Do you ask for forgiveness if you do something against her? Do you love her with all your heart, even if you do something against her?

Now, let's get to the other commandments.
Do you really have no ability to not murder?
You have no ability to not lie?
You have no ability to not steal?
You have no ability to lust after your neighbor's wife?

Does your wife know you have no ability to keep from lusting after other women?
Do your children know you have no ability to keep from lying?
Does your employer know you have no ability to keep from stealing?
Do the police know you have no ability to keep from murdering?
Do you think you please God with no ability to keep His commandments?
Does it please the devil because you have no ability to obey God's commandments?
Who are you going to please?
Who do you think told you, you have no ability to keep God's commandments?

Yes, I love God.
I would like to ask you one more question. A yes or a no answer is sufficient.

The words of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 22:
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Here is the question. I am YOUR neighbor. Do you love ME as yourself?

I'll give you my answer first. You are ALSO my neighbor. Do I love you as myself? I certainly am trying, but fail to reach the target set by God. Therefore, and finally, my salvation is 100% based on the work of Jesus Christ, not in my own work in trying to follow His commandments perfectly. AMEN !
 
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EmSw

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Yes, I love God.
I would like to ask you one more question. A yes or a no answer is sufficient.

Okay.

The words of Jesus Christ:
Matthew 22:
[38] This is the first and great commandment.
[39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
[40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Here is the question. I am YOUR neighbor. Do you love ME as yourself?

Since I do not know you, nor have we crossed paths, I am unable to show you any charity. However, I can assure you, if I did know you and you needed food, water, clothes, or anything else to help you, and I have sufficient means, I would gladly help you out. I would not tell you to be filled without providing food.

I'll give you my answer first. You are ALSO my neighbor. Do I love you as myself? I certainly am trying, but fail to reach the target set by God. Therefore, and finally, my salvation is 100% based on the work of Jesus Christ, not in my own work in trying to follow His commandments perfectly. AMEN !

Jesus didn't ask you follow His commandments perfectly. However, if the opportunity arises, and you have the means, then be sure to love your neighbor as yourself.

Thank you for this discussion.
 
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Okay.



Since I do not know you, nor have we crossed paths, I am unable to show you any charity. However, I can assure you, if I did know you and you needed food, water, clothes, or anything else to help you, and I have sufficient means, I would gladly help you out. I would not tell you to be filled without providing food.



Jesus didn't ask you follow His commandments perfectly. However, if the opportunity arises, and you have the means, then be sure to love your neighbor as yourself.

Thank you for this discussion.

ANYONE I speak with is my neighbor. You ARE my neighbor. I can show you charity by the way I speak with you on this board.
God DOES require perfection. To prove this you only need to look to the cross. God could have just forgiven sin with a flick of His fingers, but He could not. God is perfect in EVERY way, including His justice. In order to JUSTLY forgive sins, He had to have someone follow the law PERFECTLY and then give Himself, even unto death. The only person that could do this was God Himself. Jesus Christ was/is God in the flesh. If your justification is by the law, YES, you do need to follow it perfectly.

My justification is in Jesus Christ, and He enables me to follow His law. In this life I do not follow the law perfectly because part of me is still subject to sin. Only when I die, then will I be completely free from sin.
 
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EmSw

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ANYONE I speak with is my neighbor. You ARE my neighbor. I can show you charity by the way I speak with you on this board.

If you believe that, I can accept that.

Now, do you believe you are justified by your words? Do you believe you are condemned by them?

Matthew 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

God DOES require perfection. To prove this you only need to look to the cross. God could have just forgiven sin with a flick of His fingers, but He could not. God is perfect in EVERY way, including His justice. In order to JUSTLY forgive sins, He had to have someone follow the law PERFECTLY and then give Himself, even unto death. The only person that could do this was God Himself. Jesus Christ was/is God in the flesh. If your justification is by the law, YES, you do need to follow it perfectly.

Well, God does forgive sins without perfection. As far as having someone follow the law perfectly in order to justly forgive sins, it isn't mentioned in the Bible. I will show you what is in the Bible.

Luke 24:47
and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Forgiveness or remission, comes from repentance. Jesus never said to follow the law perfectly in order to be forgiven. In fact, nowhere does it say to follow the law perfectly. However, two requirements to be forgiven are repentance and forgiving others, not perfection.

My justification is in Jesus Christ, and He enables me to follow His law. In this life I do not follow the law perfectly because part of me is still subject to sin. Only when I die, then will I be completely free from sin.

Here again, Jesus never said we are justified by anything He did. Here is what John said about righteousness, or justification -

1 John 2:29
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3:7
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 3:10
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Please notice the word 'doeth' in each passage. It is one who 'doeth' righteousness, who is born of God. It is one who 'doeth' righteousness, who is righteous. It is one who 'doeth not' righteousness, nor loves his brother, who is a child of the devil.

Now let's look at John the Baptist.

Matthew 21:32
For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.

The publicans and harlots believed John's message of righteousness, for they repented and brought works worthy of repentance. The Pharisees saw John's message, but did not believe John's message, therefore, did not repent.

Then we have Peter saying this -

Act 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

It is those who work righteousness, who are accepted with God.
 
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EmSw

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Would that not be a form of justification? You mention in your post #30 that Jesus Christ did not justify us by anything He did.

Please excuse my writing. I did mention that, but I meant to say Jesus did justify by what we did. Sorry.
 
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Please excuse my writing. I did mention that, but I meant to say Jesus did justify by what we did. Sorry.

No problem.
My only point is that we are justified by the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. The law is good and I want to follow the law. However, if I do follow the law it's NOT because of ANYTHING in my natural self, it's because of Jesus Christ in me, the hope of glory.

My justification does NOT lie in my OWN ability to follow the law, it lies in CHRISTS work, for me. Will the work of Christ in me show itself by me actually following the law? Yes, it should.

The ONLY thing I am trying to convey to you is that the horse MUST come before the cart. The law is the cart. Jesus Christ is the horse.
Without the horse, I am dead.

ALL the credit, ALL the glory goes to Jesus Christ. ALL OF IT!
 
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EmSw

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No problem.
My only point is that we are justified by the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. The law is good and I want to follow the law. However, if I do follow the law it's NOT because of ANYTHING in my natural self, it's because of Jesus Christ in me, the hope of glory.

I am not saying it's not Jesus. He provided us food to eat in order that we may live. However, what if you don't desire to eat, and die from starvation? You could lie in bed all and night and do a thing. Does His provisions of food do you any good? Do you see man has his part?

My justification does NOT lie in my OWN ability to follow the law, it lies in CHRISTS work, for me. Will the work of Christ in me show itself by me actually following the law? Yes, it should.

I'm afraid it does lie in your own ability. You have the ability to speak and therefore, the ability to lie, don't you? Why do you not have the ability to tell the truth?

The ONLY thing I am trying to convey to you is that the horse MUST come before the cart. The law is the cart. Jesus Christ is the horse.
Without the horse, I am dead.

However, the cart MUST be hooked up to and follow the horse.

ALL the credit, ALL the glory goes to Jesus Christ. ALL OF IT!

Do all the commandments you break and all the sins you commit glorify Jesus? If not, why would you desire to break His commandments and sin? Why do you not, with the strength He gives, keep His commandments and not sin?
 
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