Salvation by Faith and Works in the Old Testament

Danoh

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Two points - one on "the Greek," the other on the various issues the last few threads on here have been exploring.

Some of the replies on some of these threads remind me of an arguement posed by the nevertheless, great Bible student, the late Scotland Yard detective, Sir Robert Anderson.

Wherein he declares that because he did not see Paul preaching the Mystery in Acts 17, but rather, "as his manner was," preaching only "the Scriptures" then written, Paul therefore did not preach the Mystery in Acts 17.

And yet, there Paul is in his own words, reminding the Thessalonians of Acts 17 on those aspects of the Mystery he had shared with them "while [he] was yet with [them]," 2 Thess. 2:5.

Point is, the Mystery is its own context. The revelation of which resulted in a change in meaning in many things, as Romans 11, and 2nd Peter, per Gal. 2:7-9, clearly declare.

Thus, the obvious confusion the Jerusalem saints, given all that the prophets had prophesied was to be the order of things, are seen contending with, God knowing all along He would clear such things up through this, at first, seemingly odd new Apostle of - of all things foreign to that which had been thus far written - of the Gentiles without Israel having first been filled as prophesied, Isaiah 60;1-3; Luke 1-4, Mark 8:27, Acts 3:24-26.

Of the Gentiles, as an Apostle born out of, outside of, God's prophesied, Israel first, due time redemption [said due time once more placed on hold, by God, as He had planned] "til the fulness of the Gentiles be come in," Rom. 11:25, 2 Peter 3.

1 Corinthians 2 clearly teaches a change in the meaning of things as a result of said revelation - "for had they known it [the mystery] they [the dark princes of this evil age] would not have crucified the Lord of glory," 1 Cor. 2:7.

I still recall the long, seven page article someone once wrote me on "the Greek meaning of the word musterion," in their attempt to dissuade me from the Mid-Acts Perspective, to no avail.

Years later, we ran into one another. There they were, still stuck on that long "in the Greek" initiated, this, that and the other, "mystery religions..."

I was still pointing to the fact of its meaning having been rendered right there in 1 Corinthians, by how words are used in the passage:

"the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory, But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him." 1 Cor. 2:7-9.

Basic meanings for the word meant by the Spirit through the Apostle Paul, found right there in the passage, by how it uses words - a truth [hidden] by God - thus, which neither [the uninitiated] the dark princes of this world, nor those inspired to write Scripture before the Apostle Paul, had been made privy to.

As a result, for my understanding of words, I do not rely much on Greek lexicons, and such for my meanings, but rather, on how words are used, and that, in light of the great impact the revelation of the Mystery had on their meanings.

In this point, in light of that, and Eph. 3: 9's "the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God," Jerry, and I don't always agree with him either, the late great Bible student C.R. Stam is ever sound in his assertion, that Acts 3:21 and Romans 16:25 are not the same:
Acts 3:

21. Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Romans 16:
25. Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Given the above reliance - on how words are used, and that, in light of the revelation of the Mystery's impact on the meaning of things, "by faith which is in me" is to me, a reference to the "forgiveness of sins" the Lord, in that passage declares unto Paul He alone made possible. It is a reference to Romans 3: 22's "Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:"

It is a reference to the gospel of the grace of God in His Son, to all and upon all without distinction by the time Paul was called, for by that time, per Paul's own words, God had concluded all - Israel - "them that were near" - no nearer to God now, than the far off Gentiles - in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all, Rom. 11:32, Eph. 2:17.

Them that are sanctified being a reference to "the saints," of Eph. 2:19-22 - that Two-Fold household of God - the election of Israel, the Little Flock were are a part of, when God sealed them and cut off Israel from the circumcision gospel, and that New Creature - the Body of Christ He then began to reveal through a new Aostle - Paul - He'd planned to begin building of both heathen - of those fallen Israelites and the Gentiles He was now granting one more opportunity to inherit eternal life.

Danoh
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JerryShugart

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mark273

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I feel like a big problem with this discussion is that people are using the terms works and faith in absolute philosophical terms instead of in relational terms. When someone believes in God, their life will demonstrate that faith because in the same person you cannot separate these things. A person acts, a person, loves, a person believes. The way a person behaves is an indication of where their heart is. I think that when we humanize the conversation it becomes more clear.

There is nothing we can do to earn God's favor. What God wants is people who love him and trust him. Those responses are not meritorious on our part. Neither faith, love, nor works are meritorious. Whatever relationship we have with him, it is based on his grace, on his desire to bless us.

That is why the Scriptures in different places can sometimes speak of faith or love or works. It depends on the situation in which the writer was speaking. If you try to read the Bible like a legal contract, you lose a lot in reading for one thing. But even more, you have to distort things in order to make them fit into a two-dimensional, legal contractual interpretation. You lose the depth and warmth of what God is talking about.

This may sound like a shallow person talking here. But these words come from years of not only studying the Bible and Greek and Hebrew, but from also teaching at the seminary level the Bible and Greek and Hebrew.
 
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Danoh

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I feel like a big problem with this discussion is that people are using the terms works and faith in absolute philosophical terms instead of in relational terms. When someone believes in God, their life will demonstrate that faith because in the same person you cannot separate these things. A person acts, a person, loves, a person believes. The way a person behaves is an indication of where their heart is. I think that when we humanize the conversation it becomes more clear.

There is nothing we can do to earn God's favor. What God wants is people who love him and trust him. Those responses are not meritorious on our part. Neither faith, love, nor works are meritorious. Whatever relationship we have with him, it is based on his grace, on his desire to bless us.

That is why the Scriptures in different places can sometimes speak of faith or love or works. It depends on the situation in which the writer was speaking. If you try to read the Bible like a legal contract, you lose a lot in reading for one thing. But even more, you have to distort things in order to make them fit into a two-dimensional, legal contractual interpretation. You lose the depth and warmth of what God is talking about.

This may sound like a shallow person talking here. But these words come from years of not only studying the Bible and Greek and Hebrew, but from also teaching at the seminary level the Bible and Greek and Hebrew.

After many years of attemoting to look at these issues through the Word, I'd have to respectfully disagree with you on an aspect of the above, if I properly understood it as you meant it - where you state "When someone believes in God, their life will demonstrate that faith because in the same person you cannot separate these things."

Case in point, yesterday I was invited to attend someone's Bible study at which all were given the floor as to whatever was on the mind. All focused on one issue - the various problems they were going through in their lives.

Each went on about where God was in all that, where He is, where He might be, how He works, and so on - all from human viewpoint.

As I heard each person out, I was a bit distressed by their ignorance, to say the least. It pains me so to see the ignoarnce by which believers set out to live the Christian life. Especially, when they are suffering so and there is no one to show them the victory that is already ours in Christ.

'I've been there, suffered my own versuon of that...,' I thought, 'still, along with sharing some of that, what might I say of encouragement through the Word rightly divided to these people on this form of trouble common to us all?"

So, I asked to be called on last. At which point, I simply opened to Romans 5 and focused on the one word there - after the beauty that is verse one - verse 3's "knowing that tribulation worketh patience..."

As I see the issue, that right there is the problem knowing in light of the Word rightly divided 2 Tim. 2:15, how these things work.

In short, believing is not enough - one of them was evidently, and turned out to be a Jehovah's Witness!

Rather, Eph.5:17's "Wherefore [for this reason] be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is" is crucial.

As a esult, to my understanding, those believers who either do not live according to understanding, together with those who would judge them - and we have all been there - from the view point that a believer would not behave as we sometime do just because they are believers, is missing the vital role that understanding what the will of the Lord is - through-His-rightly-divided -Word-plays in all this.

Later, one of them thanked me before the rest for having pointed out what I did. I was so happy that this individual perhaps saw that they had all along had a means - the Word - of an answer to the tribulations they were undergoing. God is indeed, good.

I'm sorry to have to disagree with you on that, Mark, I truly am, as it is not my intent to alienate you, as the Lord is the issue.

Also, while I basically agree with your view that repentence is an issue of the heart turning its belief to God, at the same time, what we who study the Word from the Mid-Acts Perspective mean by Jew and Gentile is not the difference between the two as to their lost statuts in this age that many appear to suppose we mean.

To us, "Israel after the flesh" in contrast to "the election" Rom. 7:11, of Israel - "the Israel of God" Gal. 6:16 - "the circumcison which believed," Acts 10:45, was concluded "in unbelief" by God, at Acts 7:51, per Matt. 12:31,32, Rom. 2:25-29; Rom. 11:7; 25-32, or "heathen," no better off in His eyes now, than those once far off Gentiles had been, Eph. 2, thus the Apostle Paul's going to both uncircumcised Jew and Gentile, Gal. 2:7-9.

In Him,

Danoh
Eph. 4:16
 
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Danoh

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mark273

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After many years of attemoting to look at these issues through the Word, I'd have to respectfully disagree with you on an aspect of the above, if I properly understood it as you meant it - where you state "When someone believes in God, their life will demonstrate that faith because in the same person you cannot separate these things."

Thank you for the qualification. No I was not talking about believing in anything. When I talked about someone believing in God, I was talking about someone who believes and trusts in Christ as the Scripture teaches. So a Jehovah's Witness would not fit into what I was talking about. I was thinking of how that faith without works is dead in James 2. Faith and works always must go together. Not because the works are meritorious, but because of how God made people. These two categories can become abstract and philosophical. But it is simply a fact that when a person truly trusts in something or someone, or when they truly love someone, that condition of heart will show itself in how they talk and behave.
 
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Danoh

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Thank you for the qualification. No I was not talking about believing in anything. When I talked about someone believing in God, I was talking about someone who believes and trusts in Christ as the Scripture teaches. So a Jehovah's Witness would not fit into what I was talking about. I was thinking of how that faith without works is dead in James 2. Faith and works always must go together. Not because the works are meritorious, but because of how God made people. These two categories can become abstract and philosophical. But it is simply a fact that when a person truly trusts in something or someone, or when they truly love someone, that condition of heart will show itself in how they talk and behave.

I'd have to beg to differ once more. Its been my experience - and that in light of the Word - that each person brings whatever baggage they picked up along the way to the Cross, to that Cross. Especially to their understanding of how they are to live, once saved.

This is exactly why the Word calls for the need of the mind renewal process - that they might be transformed as to their outer behavior by the renewing of the mind through intake of the Word.

Not sure where you are getting your conclusion from but rightlly divided it is not.

For example, if this reply sets off your flesh's standard of expectation of performance in other that you might then be happy, should I right off arrive at your above conclusion?

Not in light of what the Word on his issue says. Being that I am a Mid-Acts Dispensationalist [Romans through Philemon] I judge you based on on your inward man as the result of Romans 4:4, not on a Circumcision Epistle, Gal. 2:7-9; James 1:1's "to the twelve tribes which are scatterred abroad."

In short, not on James 2:20.

I say all that, not to go against you for the mere sake of doing so, but rather, I say that in hopes that you might think on these things through further - we-are-not-Israel, we are members of His Body.

Danoh
Eph. 4:16
 
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