Salvation before Jesus

[Uber Genius]

with the assumption that Christianity existed in the first century, long before the days of Constantine and Eusebius.

No need for assumptions as historically the mid-first century dating is not in doubt by any scholars. We see Josephus righting about Jesus and Christianity within 50 years of Jesus ministry. Not to mention many other non-Christian scholars. By the time of Constantine we have thousands of references and scripture quotations for all but a handful of verses in the ante-Nicene church fathers writings.

You seem to be getting your history from Dan Brown, a fiction writer. This isnthensame author who wrote about a secret NASA take over of the US Government. That was not historically accurate either!

 

[Duvduv]

The bottom line is that your speculation has no source in the Christian scriptures as a doctrine of salvation in history for a sinful mankind who were the same then as they are now requiring the atoning sacrifice on the cross and resurrection.

 

[Duvduv]

This speculation has no doctrinal basis in the scriptures of Christianity, which requires sinful mankind to be saved by the atoning sacrifice and resurrection. Similarly, there is no doctrinal explanation in the Christian scriptures for the baptism by John of Jesus. On the contrary, baptism as a sign of faith in Jesus should have been done by Jesus to John...

 

[Traveling teacher]

abraham moses david...were all saved by faith in the 1 true God Yahweh who spoke to them
and guided them throughout their life....
galations 3:6-9
they all knew the coming of the Messiah was coming as it was prophecied throughout the OT
hebrews 1:5
psalm 2:7 you are my Son...begotten of God
2 samuel 7:14

they were all found in sin and could not rule God's kingdom....
only a man without sin could rule as King under God

their salvation then is the same as today....
you must have faith and love in the One true God.....
but today He has revealed himself through His Son
because his begotten Son/Yashua was found without sin He can atone for our sins
hebrews 5:14-15

 

[Duvduv]

There is no doctrine explaining in the NT why all of sinning creation back to Adam didn't need the crucifixion and resurrection for salvation before the first century whrn Jesus appeared. Nor does it explain why the period after is different than the period before. Plus, since it took hundreds of years for mankind to hear about Jesus, it doesn't explain what happened to everybody in that period in terms of salvation either.

 

[HypnoToad]

There is no doctrine explaining in the NT why all of sinning creation back to Adam didn't need the crucifixion and resurrection for salvation before the first century whrn Jesus appeared. Nor does it explain why the period after is different than the period before. Plus, since it took hundreds of years for mankind to hear about Jesus, it doesn't explain what happened to everybody in that period in terms of salvation either.

Completely false. It's been explained to you over and over and over again. You simply choose to keep your head firmly stuck in the ground and refuse to acknowledge it.

 

[Traveling teacher]

There is no doctrine explaining in the NT why all of sinning creation back to Adam didn't need the crucifixion and resurrection for salvation before the first century whrn Jesus appeared. Nor does it explain why the period after is different than the period before. Plus, since it took hundreds of years for mankind to hear about Jesus, it doesn't explain what happened to everybody in that period in terms of salvation either.

can we all agree that we cannot be saved without a Messiah....

the Old testament teaches this all the way through
Moses prophesied of the savior to come...
deuteronomy 18:15
so did all the prophets....
isaih 52:13-15....crucified messiah
isaiah 53

If you have to have a messiah to be saved then who!!!!

if so then the only question is
Who is the Messiah??
if not Jesus then Who?

 

[Duvduv]

I am taken to task for not accepting an interpretation for a doctrine that is not provided in the New Testament. Then I am expected to accept an interpretation of Deuteronomy without any benefit from any traditional Jewish commentaries going back 1500 years or more from those intimately acquainted with tradition and the Hebrew language. Rather funny, I'd say.

 

[Lukaris]

I am taken to task for not accepting an interpretation for a doctrine that is not provided in the New Testament. Then I am expected to accept an interpretation of Deuteronomy without any benefit from any traditional Jewish commentaries going back 1500 years or more from those intimately acquainted with tradition and the Hebrew language. Rather funny, I'd say.

It was Jewish Apostles who preached the Gospel to the Gentiles. Some Jews agreed with the Gospel, others did not. More Gentiles believed the Gospel; Messianic Jews were divided on the requirements for the Gentiles. In Acts of the Apostles 15, the spiritual & moral laws of the Lord’s commandments were passed on to the Gentiles while requirements of the flesh like circumcision & animal sacrifices for atonement were discarded. Why do Christians need to rely on other non Messianic Jewish commentaries?

In the Orthodox and Catholic Churches the sacraments are understood as replacing the fleshly ordinances, Indeed the Lord had already done this but it takes us a while to realize. For ex. in Leviticus 7 animals had to be brought to the priest for atonement of sins. We still confess our sins to the priest ( 1 John 1:5-12), circumcision ( Genesis 17:10-14) is superseded by baptism ( John 3, Romans 6 & now includes females ), the Lord has given us His body & blood to know, remember, believe, proclaim Him etc. in the Holy Eucharist ( John 6:39-71).

 

[Duvduv]

What Jewish apostles?? There is not the slightest allusion to any Jewish apostles in any texts in Hebrew or Aramaic texts. There are mentions of Saducees and Samaritans, but no Jewish Christians. The entire idea is restricted to official church-sanctioned texts. No outside corroboration at all.

 

[Traveling teacher]

What Jewish apostles?? There is not the slightest allusion to any Jewish apostles in any texts in Hebrew or Aramaic texts. There are mentions of Saducees and Samaritans, but no Jewish Christians. The entire idea is restricted to official church-sanctioned texts. No outside corroboration at all.

some of your leading rabbis in Israel have proclaimed Yashua as the Messiah
in recent years

If you will like I can look up their names!!

 

[Duvduv]

Please don't try to be so clever and try to change the subject .I replied to a comment, and nothing you said refutes my point. If you want to talk about something else start a new thread.

 

[Lukaris]

What Jewish apostles?? There is not the slightest allusion to any Jewish apostles in any texts in Hebrew or Aramaic texts. There are mentions of Saducees and Samaritans, but no Jewish Christians. The entire idea is restricted to official church-sanctioned texts. No outside corroboration at all.

Who do you think the first Apostles were? Pharisees & Sadduccees were adherents of Judaism; Hebrews are Jews. You do not have to even be Christian to realize that it’s origins are Jewish. The Gentiles did not just randomly choose to create their own variation of Judaism.

 

[Duvduv]

Please, spare me your speculation. There is no evidence whatsoever of any Jewish Christians in the first century outside of Church-designated dogma, doctrine and texts. Period.

 

[Lukaris]

Please, spare me your speculation. There is no evidence whatsoever of any Jewish Christians in the first century outside of Church-designated dogma, doctrine and texts. Period.

Speculations? Do you even know what you are talking about? It was Jewish preachers who preached to other Jews & non Jews about a new revelation. It morphed from Judaism to a new found faith because of the need to accommodate believers who did not accept certain Judaic traditions and it was impossible to remain within the old Jewish framework because many Jews rejected the new revelation.

There are even some Jews who today believe Christianity is a sect of Judaism
The Jewish Gospels

What you are saying is akin to claiming that the original settlers of the future USA were not English but from Antarctica.

 

[Duvduv]

WHAT Jewish preachers?? Who can you name from any historical Jewish sources who was a Jewish preacher believing in Jesus?? Outside of the New Testament you will find none. Nothing. Nada. Zippo.

 

[Starcomet]

The Ebionites and Nazarenes are believed to be a sect that existed as early as the first century or early second century. So there is scholarly evidence that a Jewish Christian group existed, but was soon pushed out by the followers of Paul the destruction of the temple.

 

[Sanoy]

This belongs in the apologetics section or world religion, not exploring Christianity section. This is for those seeking Christianity, not for launching polemics. Please start using the correct section. Once there it would help in understanding if you quoted the person whose comments you are rejecting.

How did salvation persist without temple sacrifice? Faith and good will right? Well forgiveness requires two parts, faith and good will toward God and blood to transmit sins upon. (for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul. Leviticus 17:11). Just as Abraham lacked a lamb, the Lord provided a lamb. The lamb is given to all who bear faith and goodwill toward God whether through His explicit revelation from Jesus, or in His general revelation through the things that were made.

Jesus is all over the Tanakh, not sure if you are aware of that. It is only after His incarnation that He becomes the sacrifical lamb. If you read the Tanakh you have read the words of Christ.

 

[Duvduv]

You won't find the mention of any Ebionites or Nazarenes in any Jewish texts. They were invented by the Church to reinforce the stories of the New Testament.

The Ebionites and Nazarenes are believed to be a sect that existed as early as the first century or early second century. So there is scholarly evidence that a Jewish Christian group existed, but was soon pushed out by the followers of Paul the destruction of the temple.

 

[Duvduv]

Sanoy, tou are doing just what I described. Just reading into the Jewish Scriptures whatever you want.