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Salvation before Jesus

Discussion in 'Exploring Christianity' started by Duvduv, Apr 13, 2018.

  1. HypnoToad

    HypnoToad *croak* Supporter

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    Wow. The irony there is staggering.

    More evidence that you've simply chosen to ignore anything Christians here say. Once again, the Christians Scriptures that discuss it have already been shown to you. Yet here you are with your fingers in your ears, saying, "la la la I can't hear you I can't hear you."

    What He was doing?? He was being God. Go reread your own Scriptures if you aren't aware of what God was doing before the time of Jesus' ministry.
     
  2. Duvduv

    Duvduv Well-Known Member

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    To God there is no time or space. Before and after are the same. If a person could have a relationship with God without a crucified Jesus before the first century he could it have it after the first century. And no, the Christian scriptures do not explain the difference.....
     
  3. HypnoToad

    HypnoToad *croak* Supporter

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    If you admit time doesn't apply, then "before the 1st century" has no bearing on Christ's sacrifice, meaning nothing stops God from applying that sacrifice to people who lived before the time of Jesus' ministry. And yes, the Christian Scriptures DO explain this. The passages have already been pointed out to you. Rather than refute those passages, you apparently prefer to pretend no one has pointed them out to you.
     
  4. Duvduv

    Duvduv Well-Known Member

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    There is no logic to applying an atonement before it takes place. The comparison to Yom Kippur and a sacrificial Passover lamb do not apply because their effect under the law did not apply in advance either. So if from the time of Adam people got salvation directly from God, then it can always work the same way with the eternal God. And Christian scriptures don't explain the alternative.
     
  5. HypnoToad

    HypnoToad *croak* Supporter

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    You can't have it both ways. If God is not bound by time, then there is absolutely nothing illogical about Christ's sacrifice applying to earlier people. If Christ's sacrifice can not be applied to earlier people, then you are saying that God IS bound by time. So which is it?

    Once again, salvation ALWAYS was directly from God. That never changed. Jesus' involvement does not negate that in any way (Largely because Jesus *IS* God.) How many times do you have to be told that?
     
  6. Duvduv

    Duvduv Well-Known Member

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    I'm sorry, it is you who wants it both ways. An atonement of a sacrifice BEFORE it takes place. And without your scriptures as a source to explain it.
     
  7. HypnoToad

    HypnoToad *croak* Supporter

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    You aren't making any sense. If God is NOT bound by time (which you claim is true), then how is He unable to apply Christ's sacrifice to those who lived before Jesus? Being not bound by time means that "before" has no bearing.

    This is the last time I'm going to say it - the Scriptures that state this have ALREADY BEEN SHOWN TO YOU. If you insist on burying your head in the sand and ignoring that, then you leave me no choice but to conclude that you've simply chosen to be too dishonest to have this discussion.
     
  8. Duvduv

    Duvduv Well-Known Member

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    You could discuss this logically without resorting to attempts at intimidation. It would be more fruitful.
     
  9. HypnoToad

    HypnoToad *croak* Supporter

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    I already am. You're the one who can't explain your "logic" of a God that is supposedly not bound by time but then can't apply Jesus' sacrifice to those who lived before Jesus.

    Insisting that you should be honest is hardly "intimidation". But hey, you go ahead and try whatever stall tactics you think will help you.
     
  10. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why then did God have the priesthood in the Old Covenant?

    Starting with the Aaronic, then Levitical ending with the only One from the order of Melchizedek?

    What was the purpose? Why did they exist?
     
  11. Duvduv

    Duvduv Well-Known Member

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    Thst has nothing to with divine salvation. AcvorAcco to the church history Jesus was around several decades before the end of a Jerusalem priesthood. So what?
     
  12. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You should really reply to whomever's thought you are disagreeing with. It makes it much easier to read and follow.

    If you read the Bible, you will see that God never said that the forgiveness of sin through the Levitical priesthood was equal or anywhere close to equal to Jesus. THAT IS WHY the entire Old Testament talks about the coming Messiah and God's promise to them that their will be a Messiah coming.

    Given that, it is irrelevant that you see that Jesus not being in the Old Testament even being an issue.

    Just because you do not understand how the Old Covenant was setup and worked, doesn't mean that there is a problem or issue with it. What you need to do is understand it.

    If you choose to ask questions that will help you understand, that IMHO is a better bet than your shutting down everything you think doesn't pertain. I would seek to understand first.
     
  13. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The problem with your thinking is that God has already given us verses saying He has done what you have said it makes no sense to do.

    I will list them for your reference.

    Abraham

    Genesis 15:5-6

    5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

    Romans 4:3
    For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

    Romans 4:9

    Is this blessing only on the circumcised, or also on the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited as righteousness.

    Romans 4:20
    Yet he did not waver through disbelief in the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God,

    Romans 4:22
    That is why "it was credited to him as righteousness."

    Galatians 3:6
    So also, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

    James 2:23

    And the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called a friend of God.

    Nehemiah 9:8

    "You found his heart faithful before You, And made a covenant with him To give him the land of the Canaanite, Of the Hittite and the Amorite, Of the Perizzite, the Jebusite and the Girgashite-- To give it to his descendants. And You have fulfilled Your promise, For You are righteous.

    Psalm 106:31
    And it was reckoned to him for righteousness, To all generations forever.

    Other patriarchs were also credited with righteousness.
     
  14. Duvduv

    Duvduv Well-Known Member

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    You are reading Into these verses what isn't there. There is nothing about faith in a future crucified Christ for atonement before the fact.
     
  15. Duvduv

    Duvduv Well-Known Member

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    Nothing that you say here is a doctrinal statement from the New Testament.
    People as sinners since Adam logically needed Jesus for salvation but didn't have him.....
     
  16. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Romans is not about the future and neither is James.

    So your future Christ argument is invalid because both of these books, written by Paul and James AFTER Christ’s death validate that this righteous was received because of Christ.

    Do you have another argument?
     
  17. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Actually, reread the verses I posted since most of them are New Testament.

    Notice Romans, Galatians and James.
     
  18. Ancient of Days

    Ancient of Days Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "Duvduv, post: According to the narrative of all self-identified Christian denominations there was no Jesus before the first century AD, with the assumption that Christianity existed in the first century, long before the days of Constantine and Eusebius. So naturally the question arises: what was the salvation for human beings (including Jews) for all the millennia before he arrived? Where was the grace and atonement for mankind to be saved from eternal damnation before the year 33 AD?! In addition, since it took quite a while for the world to know about his salvation, what happened to mankind who never heard about him even AFTER he was in the first century?"

    "What was the salvation for human beings (including Jews) for all the millennia before he arrived?"

    There was no salvation.(Yet) "4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins."

    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

    16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

    17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

    18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

    19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

    20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

    21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

    22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

    23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

    24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

    25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

    26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

    27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    10 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

    2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

    3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

    4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

    5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

    6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2018
  19. Ancient of Days

    Ancient of Days Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "But God found fault with the people and said"

    Hebrews 8:8-12 King James Version (KJV)

    8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

    9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

    10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

    11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

    12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
     
  20. hedrick

    hedrick Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Let's stop right here. Jesus was the incarnation of the Logos. The Logos is one persona of God, and thus was always there.
    There are lots of problems with this. First, it contradicts Paul's statements. He uses Abraham as an example of salvation. Also, in Rom 3:25 Paul says that God had in previous times passed over sins. What Christ does is enable us to deal with sins. Jesus in the Words of Institution cites Jer 31:31. Jesus died to write the covenant in our hearts. But Jeremiah certainly never imagined that salvation was impossible until that future that he spoke of in the passage.

    Quoting passages about sacrifice has its own weaknesses. In the OT, the primary way of dealing with sin is repentance. Sacrifice is a way of making the commitment to repentance visible, i.e. it's in Christian terms a sacrament. But it was never necessary for God to forgive. Heb 6:10 is actually an allusion to OT passages such as Ps 51:16-17. Even in the OT sacrifice wasn't necesary. "The sacrifice acceptable to Godd is a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise." Then and now.
     
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