Salvation before Jesus

[hedrick]

Either way, it comes out the same. There no scriptural explanation for the absence of Jesus before the first century.

Let's suppose John is right that Jesus is the Word made flesh. The Word was there from the beginning. He only became visible in human form when Jesus was born. The Word was certainly not absent before the First Century.

 

[Sketcher]

Christians who rely so heavily on Sola Scripturum apparently have no source to explain how humanity mansged without before the appearance of Jesus in the first century and must rely on hypotheses.

Humanity didn't manage before Jesus came. The plan that God always had for humanity was redemption through Jesus, per Romans 3:25-26.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Either way, it comes out the same. There no scriptural explanation for the absence of Jesus before the first century.

But the Word of God never said that the Messiah would be present before the first century.

Reading the Old Covenant we read about the coming Messiah, so why does it bother you that the Messiah came in the first century?

The point is that the Old Covenant professes of a future Messiah and the New Covenant has that Messiah and the building of Christ’s Church.

So I’m not seeing why there is an issue. They don’t conflict at all.

Remember the Old Covenant had the Levitical priesthood for sin sacrifice. Not Christ, but they weren’t left high and dry.

 

[Soyeong]

According to the narrative of all self-identified Christian denominations there was no Jesus before the first century AD, with the assumption that Christianity existed in the first century, long before the days of Constantine and Eusebius. So naturally the question arises: what was the salvation for human beings (including Jews) for all the millennia before he arrived? Where was the grace and atonement for mankind to be saved from eternal damnation before the year 33 AD?! In addition, since it took quite a while for the world to know about his salvation, what happened to mankind who never heard about him even AFTER he was in the first century?

In John 8:56, Jesus said that Abraham rejoiced to see his day and was glad, so people in the OT looked in faith in the promised Redeemer in the same way we do. The one and only way that there has ever been to become saved is by grace through faith. In Hebrews 11:7, Noah was listed as an example of faith, and in Genesis 6:8-9, it says that Noah found grace in the eyes of God and that he was a righteous man, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith in the same way we are.

 

[food4thought]

Christians who rely so heavily on Sola Scripturum apparently have no source to explain how humanity mansged without before the appearance of Jesus in the first century and must rely on hypotheses.

I'll let the New Testament speak for itself on the matter...


For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one. Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.
(Romans 3:28-31 NASB)

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT." Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised.
(Romans 4:1-12 NASB)

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.
(Romans 5:1-2 NASB)

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval. By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible. By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained the testimony that he was righteous, God testifying about his gifts, and through faith, though he is dead, he still speaks. By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death; AND HE WAS NOT FOUND BECAUSE GOD TOOK HIM UP; for he obtained the witness that before his being taken up he was pleasing to God. And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith. By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God. By faith even Sarah herself received ability to conceive, even beyond the proper time of life, since she considered Him faithful who had promised. Therefore there was born even of one man, and him as good as dead at that, as many descendants AS THE STARS OF HEAVEN IN NUMBER, AND INNUMERABLE AS THE SAND WHICH IS BY THE SEASHORE. All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
(Hebrews 11:1-13 NASB)


It is clear from these passages, and others, that both those that preceded Christ and those who followed His resurrection are all saved by faith. The exact content of that faith varied from age to age, but the one constant was faith in the promises of God. Christ's sacrifice covers both those who preceded Him and those who lived after Him... no one has ever been saved apart from what Jesus did, but that is not dependent upon them knowing that Jesus died for their sins, they simply must have faith in what God has revealed to them. No one but God knows what will become of those who never heard of the LORD (before Christ) or the gospel (after Christ), but we do know that only those who respond in faith to what God has revealed will be saved.

Hope this helps;
Michael

 

[Duvduv]

Thank you, Michael. I know about Abraham etc. But it doesn't explain the role of Jesus before the first century. This is nowhere described in those scriptures.

 

[Lukaris]

All I mean is that there is no scriptural explanation to describe salvation before Jesus appeared. And if one follows TULIP then one cannot explain the absence of Jesus since creation of totally depraved mankind.

Romans 2

Christ is the same always ( Hebrews 13:8 ) the provisions of Romans 2 still persist for those who honestly cannot determine. For Christians, we put faith in salvation by grace ( Ephesians 2:8-10 ).

It is the Lord’s call ( John 14:6 ).

 

[food4thought]

Thank you, Michael. I know about Abraham etc. But it doesn't explain the role of Jesus before the first century. This is nowhere described in those scriptures.

I guess I am unsure what you mean by "the role of Jesus before the first century". Do you mean what was Jesus doing before then, or in what way Jesus affected salvation before then? I think you are asking the latter...

 

[Duvduv]

I am sorry I did not reply. I was carrying the subject over to other threads. I meant mainly the latter, but since you mention it, we can consider the former as well.

 

[adhidw]

According to the narrative of all self-identified Christian denominations there was no Jesus before the first century AD, with the assumption that Christianity existed in the first century, long before the days of Constantine and Eusebius. So naturally the question arises: what was the salvation for human beings (including Jews) for all the millennia before he arrived? Where was the grace and atonement for mankind to be saved from eternal damnation before the year 33 AD?! In addition, since it took quite a while for the world to know about his salvation, what happened to mankind who never heard about him even AFTER he was in the first century?

Salvation before Jesus.

1. God is eternal, He is the alpha and omega .

2. He has a plan in the eternal realm that there surely be humans that can bring Glory to Him (Isa 43:7).

Isa43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him

3. For realizing His plan He formed this perishable earth , then followed by sending His people ( the Chosen/ spiritual beings , Adam, Eve , Abel. Seth,…., Noah,….., Abraham, Isaac, Jacob,….., the last name in His book of life they are all zero state in the first place/ without knowledge without ability ) to wander/sojourn on this perishable earth for their Growths ( because in eternal realm there is no growth/ every things are flat/ steady ) ( Rom8:20) .

Rom8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope

4. His people can only bring glory to Him if: they understood well that the salvation ( living peacefully with God in the eternal realm ) is by God’s Grace alone (moving from this perishable realm to heaven/where God is is by God’s charity alone, or humans will never be able to achieve their Salvation by their own effort what ever it sound good Isa64:6 ;26:12 , or likened as they are forbidden working on Sabbath day Exo31:13-16 )

Isa64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Isa26:12 LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us

Exo31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.


5. The hundreds of mosaic laws merely as the way how to teach His people to realize about their inability to fulfill , we can ponder it by comparing between : fulfilling the mosaic laws and keeping not eat the fruit of the tree of life intentionally , when Adam and Eve were driven out from Eden , this was the very strong evidence that they surely ate the fruits if God let them lived in Eden, surely the last one is the easiest compared to the former one , How could God give them the hundreds of laws that surely more more difficult to fulfilled then the easiest ----> proven : those laws merely for leading them to understand that the salvation = by God’s Grace alone.

6. The Jacob’s offspring as the Chosen merely as the stipulation for us (by this definitive chosen people, so we can learn ), that in this perishable realm there are two kinds of humans : with the spiritual being inside the body /born of God ( spiritual being who is sent by God to sojourn for his/her growth e.g. : Jacob , His people will be sent only through the womb of Israelis in OT ) , and naturally humans / born of flesh ( God did not put spiritual being inside the body when they are born e.g. : Esau , they are possible one day to be the devil’s camp John8:44 , likened such people beyond the Israelis in OT ) , after His people learned well about this stipulation so God change the covenant ( Jer 31:29-33) through all over the world / spiritually Jews .


Jer31:29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape (people beyond Israelis ), and the children's teeth are set on edge (God does not put human’s spirit inside them when they are born /born of flesh ).

31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge ( distributed to all over the world/spiritually Jews ).

31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt ( only the rest that will be saved ); which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

7.No one realized and admit about their inability although He Gave a quite long period of time from Mosses age until Jesus, men still try to fulfill the mosaic laws , so men should be compelled to witnessing the manifestation of the God Grace , demonstrated by the Messiah ( crucifixion and resurrection ).

8. From that day men began to understand that the Salvation = by God’s Grace alone , so men can bring Glory to God -----> the purpose of creation is achieved.


Summary : the steps are conducted in order to lead us “ well understood “ that the salvation is by God Grace alone.
So All the saveds OT and NT are saved by God's Grace , the matter just only understood or not yet.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Thank you, Michael. I know about Abraham etc. But it doesn't explain the role of Jesus before the first century. This is nowhere described in those scriptures.

It is necessary for you to know and understand the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. They are totally different and God had a different plan overall for these two Covenants.

How Jesus fits into the New Covenant will help you see that the Old Covenant plan was and is part of God’s plan.

Things were different and knowing what those differences are and why and how the New Covenant is the better Covenant in God’s plan and how it was an improvement over the Old.

 

[Duvduv]

There is no distinction between covenants if the Gospel of John states that Jesus was around since the very beginning of creation...,

 

[ToBeLoved]

There is no distinction between covenants if the Gospel of John states that Jesus was around since the very beginning of creation...,

And that shows that you have no understanding of this, which not to be rude, is why you are confused that Jesus is somewhat absent from the Old Covenant.

So what I would be asking, if I were you and I wanted to understand, would be to try and discover what God’s intention was in the Old Covenant and why God chose the timing He did to have Jesus born when He was.

Because if God had wanted He could have given them (Hebrews/Israelites) Christ thousands of years before. But He did not, so why?

Why did God choose to give them the 10 commandments and Law for a few thousand years before Christ came.

 

[Duvduv]

And then you're still left with the fact that before the first century sinners got forgiven without faith in Jesus, so that is no different than the situation even now....faith in God is all that is necessary...

 

[ToBeLoved]

And then you're still left with the fact that before the first century sinners got forgiven without faith in Jesus, so that is no different than the situation even now....faith in God is all that is necessary...

How is that no different then things are now?

I’m not getting how you can say that?

 

[HypnoToad]

And then you're still left with the fact that before the first century sinners got forgiven without faith in Jesus, so that is no different than the situation even now....faith in God is all that is necessary...

This has already been explained to you. Given how simple of a concept it is, it's getting to the point that we're left with no explanations other than you either are unable to grasp it, or you've simply chosen to not listen and are going to reject anything we say.

The only reason faith in God (before Jesus' ministry) brought salvation was because God had already planned on atonement through Jesus. The whole sacrificial system of the old covenant foreshadowed Jesus' sacrifice. God (again, as already explained) is not bound by time. He can apply the atonement of Christ to those who lived before the time of Jesus' ministry.

 

[Duvduv]

The way you seek to explain it is not discussed in the Christian scriptures, which is the source for knowledge about Jesus according to Christians. It's not as if you would rely on traditions from a Talmud, etc.

 

[Duvduv]

How is that no different then things are now?
I’m not getting how you can say that?

It is possible to have forgiveness from the same omniscient and omnipotent God before the 1st century and after the 1st century.

 

[HypnoToad]

The way you seek to explain it is not discussed in the Christian scriptures, which is the source for knowledge about Jesus according to Christians. It's not as if you would rely on traditions from a Talmud, etc.

Where the Christian Scriptures discuss it has already been shown to you. Once again, the only possible conclusions are that you are either incapable of understanding this simple idea, or you've pre-decided that Christians are wrong and you're simply not going to listen to anything we tell you.

 

[Duvduv]

I think you are engaged in a bit of avoidance, HypnoToad. After all, your explanations for the role of Jesus before the first century are not discussed anywhere in the Christian scriptures, which is the source of knowledge about Jesus. So you are relying on mere opinions. It has nothing to do with being incapable or pre-decided. The Gospel of John says Jesus was the Word from the beginning of time, yet doesn't explain what he was doing all that time.....