Salvation Army supports Planned Parenthood & defys Catholic morality.

[MoNiCa4316]

The truth has always been available to Protestants, it's just that Protestant ministers always warn their followers away from seeking out Catholic teachings to prevent them from being exposed to the truth.

if a pastor does this, then indeed he is more guilty of leading people astray, then the people in his congregation...

I'm always amazed at how Protestant worship works. I had to take a sociology of religion class in college and I discovered that television began a war with local churches and televangelists, with televangelists offering the convenience of worship at home (while shaking the collection plate) and local churches always warning against their belief that televangelists were misleading people (while shaking the collection plate).

I've always been puzzled by megachurches and televangelists, even as an evangelical Protestant.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

BAFRIEND

since jim has argued for abortion on the same grounds the salvation army argues in favor for it, admittting in the op quote it is against Catholic teaching (see even the protestant SA know that one) he is hardly objective

Well, I never argued FOR abortion, so this statement is a lie.

jim knows that a nun was excommunicated for holding those very views, why would anyone else purporting to be Catholic be held to a lower standard ?

The nun was excommunicated because she thought the abortion she approved was an indirect abortion, which is licit. According to the Bishop, she was wrong.

However, from what I have seen printed in this thread, the Salvation Army opposes abortion and upholds the sanctity of life. The artical you posted is questionable as far as accuracy goes.

Jim

 

[BAFRIEND]

BAFRIEND



Well, I never argued FOR abortion, so this statement is a lie.



The nun was excommunicated because she thought the abortion she approved was an indirect abortion, which is licit. According to the Bishop, she was wrong.

However, from what I have seen printed in this thread, the Salvation Army opposes abortion and upholds the sanctity of life. The artical you posted is questionable as far as accuracy goes.

Jim

i have seen your comments and debated you before on this issue many times, you know it and i know. i dnt feel that i have lied but feel my comment was accurate

if i made a mistake then i am sorry, but guess what ?

you left me with that impression and i feel for good reason

now i wont waste time with you unless you want to ask me now to go back and find a quote from you refuting the denial- the question is, do you want me to do that ?

 

[ChristoEtEcclesiae]

BAFRIEND



Well, I never argued FOR abortion, so this statement is a lie.



The nun was excommunicated because she thought the abortion she approved was an indirect abortion, which is licit. According to the Bishop, she was wrong.

However, from what I have seen printed in this thread, the Salvation Army opposes abortion and upholds the sanctity of life. The artical you posted is questionable as far as accuracy goes.

Jim

According to their American website, the Salvation Army respects the decision of mothers in "tragic" circumstances.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

BAFRIEND

i have seen your comments and debated you before on this issue many times, you know it and i know. i dnt feel that i have lied but feel my comment was accurate

No its not accurate, I have never argued FOR abortion.

if i made a mistake then i am sorry, but guess what ?

you left me with that impression and i feel for good reason

You misunderstood my position.

now i wont waste time with you unless you want to ask me now to go back and find a quote from you refuting the denial- the question is, do you want me to do that ?

If you can show a post where I'm FOR abortion, go ahead, otherwise retract your statement.


Jim

 

[BAFRIEND]

If you can show a post where I'm FOR abortion, go ahead, otherwise retract your statement.

i am not retracting anything dude, the following cmments made by you share the same view as quoted in the OP from the Salvation Army and their leader that made those comments even acknowledged that they were different views than what is held by the Catholic Church

in addition, the Church holds that any person who publically advocates abortion for any reason is ipso facto excommunicated

you say the Church needs to evolve, i say go and create your own Church, that would be nothing new; we have a history of those who oppose the Church leaving to preach against it

Its not murder to kill the fetus which is not going to live if the mother dies anyway.

It is correct to save the mother, where there is no possibility of saving them both and no possibility of saving the fetus.

May 24, 2010-
　
So there we have it. A barbaric illogical Church which is using medieval doctrine within the context of modern medicine, merely to show that the Church is the authority, not the medical experts.

Perhaps this flu season, instead of getting flu shots, we can just surround ourselves with burning holy candles as the Pope did during the "Black Plague."

May 23, 2010
However, if the state of the fetus is that the pregnancy is killing the mother, and if nothing is done both die anyway. So, terminating the pregnancy is the right decision, but not necessarily good one because the decisions were limited to only doing what is right and that is, to save the only life that you have a chance of saving, in this case, the mother. This is an either or decision. You either terminate the pregnancy or both mother and fetus die.

June 2, 2010

 

[BAFRIEND]

“The penalty of excommunication for abortion extends to the mother, all medical personnel, anyone who offers the mother moral or financial support to abort, as well as those who publicly campaign for legalized abortion. Incidentally, no formal notification of such excommunication is necessary, as it takes effect as soon as the action is performed.”
p. 77 The Catholic Answer Book vol 1, Rev. Peter M.J. Stravinskas PH.D S.T.D.

.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

i am not retracting anything dude, the following cmments made by you share the same view as quoted in the OP from the Salvation Army and their leader that made those comments even acknowledged that they were different views than what is held by the Catholic Church

in addition, the Church holds that any person who publically advocates abortion for any reason is ipso facto excommunicated

you say the Church needs to evolve, i say go and create your own Church, that would be nothing new; we have a history of those who oppose the Church leaving to preach against it

And in none of those quotes, do I state that I'm FOR abortion.

Quite the contrary. I'm opposed to direct abortions, but in the case of saving the mother's life, on a previable fetus, where no other options are left, I'm for saving the mother's life and see it as an "indirect abortion."

Thats not being FOR abortion as you put it.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

.

and he's talking about direct abortions here, not an idirect abortion.


Jim

 

[BAFRIEND]

And in none of those quotes, do I state that I'm FOR abortion.

Quite the contrary. I'm opposed to direct abortions, but in the case of saving the mother's life, on a previable fetus, where no other options are left, I'm for saving the mother's life and see it as an "indirect abortion."

Thats not being FOR abortion as you put it.

Jim

what you stated is that you disagree with the Church on what an indirect abortion is

you state you are for abortion in certain circumstances

i am not going to go in circles with you- none of your quotes i posted take the meaning you meant, they are not out of cntext

you posted you disagree with the Church teaching and its definition of 'indirect abortion'

that is being for abortion, not as I put it but as the Catholic Church puts it

you advocate abortion if it falls under your opinion of indirect- in the case of sister mcbride, that means direct abortion to save the mother

 

[JimR-OCDS]

BAFRIEND

what you stated is that you disagree with the Church on what an indirect abortion is

Yeah, I'm not in full agreement that an abortion to save the mother's life, when all else was done to save the fetus, is a direct abortion. The intent wasn't to kill the fetus.

you state you are for abortion in certain circumstances

I think the Church needs to look at this closer. In the case of saving the life of the mother, I'm not talking about emotional health here, but physical health, on a pre-viable fetus, I think the mother's life can be saved without it being considered and direct abortion.

you posted you disagree with the Church teaching and its definition of 'indirect abortion'

Yeah, I'm having a problem with it, I'll admit this.

However, that doesn't make me FOR abortion.

you advocate abortion if it falls under your opinion of indirect- in the case of sister mcbride, that means direct abortion to save the mother

No, I'm not an advocate for abortion. I'm not pleading FOR abortions. I'm pleading for the mother's life, if becomes necessary to save her through termination of her pregnancy.

This should never be on a viable fetus.

The way you put it, would be akin to as if I'm advocating leg amputation, because its sometimes necessary to save the life of a diabetic.

Jim

 

[ChristoEtEcclesiae]

BAFRIEND



Yeah, I'm not in full agreement that an abortion to save the mother's life, when all else was done to save the fetus, is a direct abortion. The intent wasn't to kill the fetus.




I think the Church needs to look at this closer. In the case of saving the life of the mother, I'm not talking about emotional health here, but physical health, on a pre-viable fetus, I think the mother's life can be saved without it being considered and direct abortion.



Yeah, I'm having a problem with it, I'll admit this.

However, that doesn't make me FOR abortion.




No, I'm not an advocate for abortion. I'm not pleading FOR abortions. I'm pleading for the mother's life, if becomes necessary to save her through termination of her pregnancy.

This should never be on a viable fetus.

The way you put it, would be akin to as if I'm advocating leg amputation, because its sometimes necessary to save the life of a diabetic.

Jim

Jim, I suggest you go to Confession and talk to a good priest about this.

 

[Antisock]

Quite the contrary. I'm opposed to direct abortions, but in the case of saving the mother's life, on a previable fetus, where no other options are left, I'm for saving the mother's life and see it as an "indirect abortion."

Don't you see this as a value judgement on the life of the mother over that of the child?

How can it be "indirect" to directly kill someone to save another?

Who does God give the right to make that decision? No one, thats who.

 

[BAFRIEND]

jim,

your leg is not another independent human being with a soul, your amputation example is not valid in the context of Catholic theology

a baby is a human being loved by God, not an apendix

i am not going around in circles anymore with you- you know that your advocating here is against what the Church teaches, end of story

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Don't you see this as a value judgement on the life of the mother over that of the child?

How can it be "indirect" to directly kill someone to save another?

Who does God give the right to make that decision? No one, thats who.

So, the bottom line here argument for you here is;

Mother life is not worth more than the previable fetus, which is going to die if she dies.

If the pregnancy is going to kill the mother, too bad for the mother, she'll just have to die along with the fetus.

I'm really having a hard time accepting this way of belief and I'm almost willing to bet, if any of you find your wife in such a situation, you'll opt for terminating the pregnancy to save her life.

Its one thing to talk about it, its another to live through it.

Jim

 

[BAFRIEND]

So, the bottom line here argument for you here is;

Mother life is not worth more than the previable fetus, which is going to die if she dies.

If the pregnancy is going to kill the mother, too bad for the mother, she'll just have to die along with the fetus.

I'm really having a hard time accepting this way of belief and I'm almost willing to bet, if any of you find your wife in such a situation, you'll opt for terminating the pregnancy to save her life.

Its one thing to talk about it, its another to live through it.

Jim

it is one thing to be in that situation, it is another thing to proactively preach against what the Church professes, the one founded and empowered by Jesus Christ

stop muddying the water, an two years ago a child was delivered and survived an ecoptic pregnancy- something claimed by the proabortionist peoples forever to be 100% lethal for the mother and child if not aborted

i am sure that mother is glad an abortion doctor did not kill her child as you argue here should be done

 

[BAFRIEND]

previable fetus

where have i heard that one before, oh yeah i remember now:

"Then I was faced with an unwanted pregnancy. I never regretted my abortion, nor did I ever feel guilty. In fact, I even prayed to God to make me feel guilty if I should feel guilty about it. When the guilt never came, feelings of anger started. I was angry that my Christian community had been feeding me all this rhetoric about abortion and 'killing your baby' that simply was not true. I was angry that other women like me were being made to feel ashamed of their abortion, because of this rhetoric.
While working for the clinic my focus has been on these women. Certainly this woman's life was more important than the fetus inside her. I am outraged at the Pro-Life's importance placed on the not-yet living or unassociated fetus over the alive and very associated woman."

this is what is known as dehumanizing

 

[JimR-OCDS]

BAFRIEND

it is one thing to be in that situation, it is another thing to proactively preach against what the Church professes, the one founded and empowered by Jesus Christ

Well until you're in that situation, you'll never know how much you accept Catholic teaching on this.

stop muddying the water, an two years ago a child was delivered and survived an ecoptic pregnancy- something claimed by the proabortionist peoples forever to be 100% lethal for the mother and child if not aborted

Wonderful, but I'm skeptical if this was in fact an ecoptic pregnancy.


I'm off until 2011.

Have a Happy New Year.

Jim

 

[JimR-OCDS]

where have i heard that one before, oh yeah i remember now:



this is what is known as dehumanizing

Don't confuse an unwanted pregnancy, with a wanted pregnancy gone wrong to the point of killing the mother.

The quote you're using is out of context from the discussion I've been debating.



Jim

 

[BAFRIEND]

Don't confuse an unwanted pregnancy, with a wanted pregnancy gone wrong to the point of killing the mother.

The quote you're using is out of context from the discussion I've been debating.



Jim

i dont share your opinon, i am adressing your use of terminology that i am used to seeing come from the proabortion camp

if you want to go down the road of using non-associative scientific terminology when refering to a humanbeing because of their developemental stage,then go ahead...

... bit i will point it out to you