Salvation and the Trinity

[ParanoidAndroid]

well that's because the word nature and form have no meaning to a trinitarian.

Must be so, 'cos 2duck said so

*why am I getting a WWE flashback of Stone-Cold Steve Austin right now

 

[alphagulf]

Must be so, 'cos 2duck said so

*why am I getting a WWE flashback of Stone-Cold Steve Austin right now

why are you paranoid? Just look up the def. somewhere, I found a site that says nature means stuff. That it?

who is steve austin? some hippie?

bravo yankee echo

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

why are you paranoid? Just look up the def. somewhere, I found a site that says nature means stuff. That it?

who is steve austin? some hippie?

bravo yankee echo

Hi alphagulf, welcome to CF

First question - why am I paranoid? That's my username: "ParanoidAndroid", and it was taken from the book "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy", written by the late Douglas Adams. My username refers to one of the characters in the story - Marvin the Paranoid Android.

Second question, you "found a site that says nature means stuff" - I'm afraid I don't understand your comment.

Third question - Stone Cold Steve Austin was a wrestler (World Wrestling Entertainment). His signature phrase, "That's the way it is 'Cause Stone Cold said so" reminded me of our current discussion, that's all. I thought it might lighten the mood

Best wishes,

~ PA

 

[2ducklow]

hummmmmm, said Kingfish,

I think Alpha was refering to this

7. Nature
The Trinitarian word "nature" is actually quite vague and is often left undefined creating much confusion. At times it means "stuff" as in the "nature of man" which means "the stuff of man," that is, flesh. So when they say "Jesus is human" it means "Jesus is human stuff" denoting "what" he is. At other times, Trinitarians use the term to describe functional characteristics as in the phrase, "it's not his nature to do such a thing." So a Trinitarian may say, "Jesus was divine by nature" indicating Jesus' functional behavior and abilities were divine in the sense of "who" he was.

Trinity Terminology

So Nature means Jesus is both human and god stuff.

 

[Jpark]

why are you paranoid? Just look up the def. somewhere, I found a site that says nature means stuff. That it?

who is steve austin? some hippie?

bravo yankee echo

Greetings. I am jpark43, heresy to Oneness and Trinity of Christian Forums. I'm afraid you will find my influence quite extraordinary.

 

[Jpark]

hummmmmm, said Kingfish,

I think Alpha was refering to this


Trinity Terminology

So Nature means Jesus is both human and god stuff.

I thought nature was referring to Spirit, which is a invisible form.

Yet God (John 4:24), the Father, the Son (Luke 24:39), and the Holy Spirit (Luke 3:22), and His angels, His Adversary and his demons demonstrate the ability to manifest in bodily form.

 

[ParanoidAndroid]

hummmmmm, said Kingfish,

I think Alpha was refering to this


Trinity Terminology

So Nature means Jesus is both human and god stuff.

So "Nature" means Jesus is "both human and god stuff". A little imprecise, but not too far wrong, imo

 

[2ducklow]

So "Nature" means Jesus is "both human and god stuff". A little imprecise, but not too far wrong, imo

So Jesus is God and human stuff. what is god stuff? what is human stuff?

Im quite sure no matter how adrotely i pressed the issue you would not concede that trinity is in any way the least bit confusing and contradictory and nonsensical. but to me everything ab out it is confusing, contradictory, and nonsensical, such as god stuff.

 

[it'sme]

So Jesus is God and human stuff. what is god stuff? what is human stuff?

Im quite sure no matter how adrotely i pressed the issue you would not concede that trinity is in any way the least bit confusing and contradictory and nonsensical. but to me everything ab out it is confusing, contradictory, and nonsensical, such as god stuff.

It is not really confusing at all.
Jehovah= is God the Father,he was never created
Jesus =is his Son, he was the first creation and through him all other creation happened. Jesus is a mirror image of Jehovah, meaning he is just like him,becasue of that he is sometimes called God.
Holy Spirit = is God's power or force. not a 'person' at all.

The only reason the Trinity is confusing, to some, is that it is a man made idea. Not a God based idea.

 

[2ducklow]

It is not really confusing at all.
Jehovah= is God the Father,he was never created
Jesus =is his Son, he was the first creation and through him all other creation happened. Jesus is a mirror image of Jehovah, meaning he is just like him,becasue of that he is sometimes called God.
Holy Spirit = is God's power or force. not a 'person' at all.

The only reason the Trinity is confusing, to some, is that it is a man made idea. Not a God based idea.

So what you're saying is JW's have a trinity too, it's just d ifferent than the normal trinity.
I agree your trinity isn't confusing, not that I believe it. But of course just because something isn't confusing doesn't mean it is true or not true.

YOu see no problem with saying JEsus is the first creation when scripture says he is the firstborn of all creation? If Jesus is born of creation, how can he be the first creation? Isn't that a contradiction?

Colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

How does the JW bible translate it?

 

[IreneAdler]

I don't think you must believe in the trinity to be Christian. I think too much doctrine is given a place as "essential" when frankly it's not. I hate that people like me seem to be in the minority.

 

[it'sme]

So what you're saying is JW's have a trinity too, it's just d ifferent than the normal trinity.
I agree your trinity isn't confusing, not that I believe it. But of course just because something isn't confusing doesn't mean it is true or not true.

YOu see no problem with saying JEsus is the first creation when scripture says he is the firstborn of all creation? If Jesus is born of creation, how can he be the first creation? Isn't that a contradiction?

Colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

How does the JW bible translate it?

Actually , no. There is no such thing as a Trinity. The pagan trinities are 3 personalities in one.
There really is two distinct spirits, or entities. One has always been there. that is Jehovah, he created his Son. That is no different than a Father on earth having a son. And the holy Spirit is Jehovah's power. Or active force that he can do things with. But that power is not a person in anyway.

(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; NWT

So this verse says he is in the image of God. It doesn't say he is God, but he is a reflection of god. In other words he is a perfect preventative of his Father. Just like we say on earth 'he is the spitting image of his father.' Which just means he is really like his dad. The only difference is that Jesus is a perfect example of Jehovah.

This pagan beleif in the Trinity came into Christianity, with Constantine in the 3rd. century, the same time the cross was introduced.

 

[2ducklow]

Actu

So this verse says he is in the image of God. It doesn't say he is God, but he is a reflection of god. In other words he is a perfect preventative of his Father. Just like we say on earth 'he is the spitting image of his father.' Which just means he is really like his dad. The only difference is that Jesus is a perfect example of Jehovah.

This doesn't answer my question which was this.

YOu see no problem with saying JEsus is the first creation when scripture says he is the firstborn of all creation? If Jesus is born of creation, how can he be the first creation? Isn't that a contradiction?

Colossians 1:15 who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Saying Jesus is the image of god is your answer to my question about how Jesus can be thefirst creation when the bible says he is the firstborn of All creation? Well I've heard worst answers.

 

[it'sme]

YOu see no problem with saying JEsus is the first creation when scripture says he is the firstborn of all creation? If Jesus is born of creation, how can he be the first creation? Isn't that a contradiction?

This is the same thing. Before Jesus there was no creation of anything.
There was only Jehovah. Jehovah's first creation was Jesus. So Jesus is the first born of creation. In other words the first creation. Jesus was not created, from anything else, there was nothing else, that was created. And Jehovah created him very simular to himself.

 

[2ducklow]

This is the same thing.

So you're saying that Firstborn of creation means first creation.

Before Jesus there was no creation of anything.
There was only Jehovah. Jehovah's first creation was Jesus. So Jesus is the first born of creation. In other words the first creation. Jesus was not created, from anything else, there was nothing else, that was created. And Jehovah created him very simular to himself.

I see, you believe first creation means first born of creation.
Does first born of my mother mean the same thing as first mother?

firstboirn of anything means first anything rigth?
like firstborn of my father means first father.

or to make it simplier

of creation means creation. and firstborn means first.

like of me means me. and first caught means first.

so first caught of me means first me.

I see your logic here.

 

[it'sme]

I see, you believe first creation means first born of creation.
Does first born of my mother mean the same thing as first mother?

first·born

   /ˈfɜrstˈbɔrn/ Show Spelled[furst-bawrn] Show IPA

–adjective
1.first in the order of birth; eldest.

–noun
2.a firstborn child.
3.a first result or product.

Firstborn | Define Firstborn at Dictionary.com

 

[2ducklow]

first·born

   /ˈfɜrstˈbɔrn/ Show Spelled[furst-bawrn] Show IPA

–adjective
1.first in the order of birth; eldest.

–noun
2.a firstborn child.
3.a first result or product.

Firstborn | Define Firstborn at Dictionary.com

So you're saying Jesus is the first result of all creation. You're saying firstborn means first result.
First creation of all creation is different than first result of all creation. Which one do you mean?

 

[IreneAdler]

Am I the only person who thinks that modern definitions of old phrases from a different language translated into English is kinda pointless to argue about?

 

[2ducklow]

Am I the only person who thinks that modern definitions of old phrases from a different language translated into English is kinda pointless to argue about?

could be. Or could be you don't want to get involved in any discussion? In the case of the Greek word translated firstborn I rather doubt that the Greek word means 'first result" but when people are dirth to defend their doctrines one has to deal with whatever they are willing to deal with. My guess is probably JW org. hasn't told him how firstborn of all creation means first creation, so he prob. needs to ask them to know how to answer my question. But then again prob. the JW org. hasn't dealt with this topic so it will never be examined.

 

[IreneAdler]

I just think you're arguing something that truely comes down to interpretation. whether it CAN mean one or the other doesn't definitively show it DID mean one or the other. The whole argument of trinity or not shouldn't just weigh on one concept. That's all. This particular argument IMO isn't compelling enough to make someone lean one way or the other (at least not me - and I've pondered this issue in depth myself) nor doees it really relate to the OPs question of whether you can be Christian and non Trin.