Salvation...and Mary!

[Hammster]

The same thing as my previous post. Editing for damage control does not negate my point.

I'm not presupposing anything about your spiritual status. I just know that if EO are treated with kid gloves, you are here to stick up for them.

I gave the OP the benefit of the doubt, raised questions about the article, and used scripture to do so. Is that usage challenged? Is counter exegesis presented? Does the OP even respond? No.

How about making an argument for or against what I said. Or do nothing at all. Defending the EO is unnecessary, however. They seem to be able to do just fine by themselves.

 

[Tzaousios]

I'm not presupposing anything about your spiritual status. I just know that if EO are treated with kid gloves, you are here to stick up for them.

Right here is the assumption that you now take as a presupposition about my spiritual status and how it relates to my motives in posting in Soteriology. Did anyone do this to you when you posted as an Arminian?

I gave the OP the benefit of the doubt, raised questions about the article, and used scripture to do so. Is that usage challenged? Is counter exegesis presented? Does the OP even respond? No.

So what? He might respond still in his own good time. In the meantime you have been setting the goalposts and then hand-waving away any responses that do not meet them. It really comes across as deflection.

How about making an argument for or against what I said. Or do nothing at all. Defending the EO is unnecessary, however. They seem to be able to do just fine by themselves.

Again, that is the assumption that has become a presupposition. Why can't you answer my question instead of speculating about me and Eastern Orthodoxy in an effort to deflect? Why can't you consider it as being my participation in my own fashion and for my own interests?

 

[Hammster]

Right here is the assumption that you now take as a presupposition about my spiritual status and how it relates to my motives in posting in Soteriology. Did anyone do this to you when you posted as an Arminian?



So what? He might respond still in his own good time. In the meantime you have been setting the goalposts and then hand-waving away any responses that do not meet them. It really comes across as deflection.



Again, that is the assumption that has become a presupposition. Why can't you answer my question instead of speculating about me and Eastern Orthodoxy in an effort to deflect? Why can't you consider it as being my participation in my own fashion and for my own interests?

I'm not getting into this crazy discussion any further.

The op's article argued the Mary was a mediator. I have no clue whether or not you agree with this. I do not. And I gave scripture that opposed it.

 

[Tzaousios]

I'm not getting into this crazy discussion any further.

Let it be noticed by all that you were the one who started it by making public assumptions about me and Eastern Orthodoxy and how it relates to my intentions in posting.

 

[Hammster]

Let it be noticed by all that you were the one who started it by making public assumptions about me and Eastern Orthodoxy and how it relates to my intentions in posting.

If that's how you see it, that's fine.

 

[Tzaousios]

I have no clue whether or not you agree with this.

I do not agree that Mary is a mediator. Now, will you please answer my questions from post #35? Thanks.

 

[Hammster]

I do not agree that Mary is a mediator. Now, will you please answer my questions from post #35? Thanks.

No.

 

[Tzaousios]

No.

Why not? I gave my thoughts on what you were wondering.

 

[Hammster]

Why not? I gave my thoughts on what you were wondering.

If you disagree with the OP, why are you asking me questions? Challenge the OP.

 

[Tzaousios]

If you disagree with the OP, why are you asking me questions? Challenge the OP.

Because I am more interested in yours and other Reformed members' methodologies and approach when looking at the OP. What is wrong with that?

 

[Ignatius21]

I actually have been checking in. Just haven't had time yet to respond.

 

[Hammster]

I actually have been checking in. Just haven't had time yet to respond.

 

[OzSpen]

Does the article have scripture to support its claim - if so I will read it. Thanks.

Can't you read the link to find if that is so? Why does one have to spoon feed you when a link is provided?

 

[GreekOrthodox]

There are warnings from God against calling upon the dead on behalf of the living.
Don't tell me they are not dead these dead saints and dead Mary because here it is saying dead, physically dead people vs physically live people in the 'land of the living' are not to be sought out.
.

So you disagree that Jesus says in Mark and Matthew:
"But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob '? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."

Paul says that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. We are asking those witness from both in the church militant and the church triumphant to pray for us.

 

[sdowney717]

So you disagree that Jesus says in Mark and Matthew:
"But regarding the fact that the dead rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the burning bush, how God spoke to him, saying, 'I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, and the God of Jacob '? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are greatly mistaken."

Paul says that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses. We are asking those witness from both in the church militant and the church triumphant to pray for us.

Sorry but this is against what God has said, praying to the 'dead'.
Or people who have passed on. Your trickery is noted. Sure they are alive in heaven but scripture does not say to do that and indeed it says NOT to do this. the dead in this passage are those who have died and gone on whether heaven or hell.

19 And when they say to you, “Seek those who are mediums and wizards, who whisper and mutter,” should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[Ignatius21]

Sorry but this is against what God has said, praying to the 'dead'.
Or people who have passed on. Your trickery is noted. Sure they are alive in heaven but scripture does not say to do that and indeed it says NOT to do this. the dead in this passage are those who have died and gone on whether heaven or hell.

I think it is the truncated understanding of the Incarnation and its significance, and implications for all areas of theology, that must be noted.

There is no trickery.

Addressing your equation of sorcery and necromancy, with seeking the intercession of the saints in light of the Incarnation, will take some time to sort out.

What has come up repeatedly in this thread so far, is that many people are content to force a particular epistemology (one that arose relatively recently as a western Protestant reaction against western Roman Catholicism) upon ancient beliefs and then judge them as lacking, or worse, as "trickery." Snip out a verse here, a verse there, throw it onto a computer screen and then consider the opposing view to be refuted. And in some cases, refuse to even read an opposing view unless its proponent first consent to discuss it entirely on one's own terms.

Oh well. I have much to comment on, in this thread, and I hope I can get to it in reasonable time. The constraints of real life are pretty stringent these days

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Sorry but this is against what God has said, praying to the 'dead'.
Or people who have passed on. Your trickery is noted. Sure they are alive in heaven but scripture does not say to do that and indeed it says NOT to do this. the dead in this passage are those who have died and gone on whether heaven or hell.

The Transfiguration:
After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

So Jesus was talking to two prophets, one of which, Moses, whose death was recorded. So was Jesus engaged in trickery and necromancy?

 

[janxharris]

The Transfiguration:
After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

So Jesus was talking to two prophets, one of which, Moses, whose death was recorded. So was Jesus engaged in trickery and necromancy?

Interesting point.

Would you say that praying to those you pray to is indispensable?

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Ecclesiastes 4:9-12 - Two are better than one, because they have a good reward for their toil. For if they fall, one will lift up his fellow. But woe to him who is alone when he falls and has not another to lift him up! Again, if two lie together, they keep warm, but how can one keep warm alone? And though a man might prevail against one who is alone, two will withstand him—a threefold cord is not quickly broken.

James 5:16 - Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

Ephesians 6:18 - Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints.

From one of the early monastics: "Whosoever enters a perfume shop even if he does not purchase any perfume, leaves filled with fragrance. The same thing happens to one who associates with holy people. He takes on himself the spiritual aroma of their virtue."

No one is saved alone. He who is saved is saved in the church, as a member of her and in union with all her other members. If anyone believes, he is in the communion of faith; if he loves, he is in the communion of love; if he prays, he is in the communion of prayer - Aleksei Khomiakov

 

[GigageiTsula]

Where in Scripture does it specifically say that the Saints in heaven are omniscient and omnipresent, so they would be able to hear our prayers?

Is prayer to saints/Mary biblical?