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Salvation...and Mary!

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Ignatius21, Oct 19, 2013.

  1. Ignatius21

    Ignatius21 Can somebody please pass the incense?

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    This is worth reading...it isn't long. It's a great perspective on "prayer" to Mary. As with everything in the ancient Church, the practice is rooted in the reality of the Incarnation.

    Please do not throw flaming darts unless you've at least read the article.

    Otherwise, let the calm and rational discourse begin ;)

    Saving Mary | Glory to God for All Things
     
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  2. AndOne

    AndOne Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men

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    Does the article have scripture to support its claim - if so I will read it. Thanks.
     
  3. Hammster

    Hammster Buckeye Newshawk Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    .
     
  4. AndOne

    AndOne Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men

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    ...I guess it doesn't
     
  5. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Really now, Mary Flesh?, and 'No one is saved alone' and 'My salvation, like my sin, is never mine alone'?

    Including Mary as 'co-redeemer' is disrespecting Jesus. There is only one name given under heaven whereby we must be saved.
    The catholics push this all the time for centuries.

     
  6. sdowney717

    sdowney717 Newbie

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    Why not read this on perverting the gospel of Christ?

    Calvin - Sermons

    Hits hard on the 'papists' and still true today.

    an excerpt where Calvin says Papists are reprobates.

     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2013
  7. Ignatius21

    Ignatius21 Can somebody please pass the incense?

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    Where does the article call her "co-redeemer?"

    I think your response partly proves the authors point about insisting upon understanding "save" and "salvation" in only one way.

    I'm not seeing what Calvin's screed against the Catholics has to do with the nuanced understanding of salvation as meaning much more than just deliverance from destruction.
     
  8. AndOne

    AndOne Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men

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    Yeah... But what about scripture?
     
  9. Ignatius21

    Ignatius21 Can somebody please pass the incense?

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    What would you like to know about it? :)
     
  10. AndOne

    AndOne Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men

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    See post #2. Don't you follow your own thread?
     
  11. Ignatius21

    Ignatius21 Can somebody please pass the incense?

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    I actually didn't see your first post. The point of the article is not to put forward an exegetical apologetic for a particular point of view. The point is to explain what is meant by a particular phrase that has been used by the Church since its infancy. So it's perhaps more akin to an article by a Calvinist explaining, at a more philosophical level, why TULIP doesn't reduce man to a puppet, or something similar.

    Does it reference Scripture? Yes. Does it marshall a list of proof texts to use as ammunition against someone else's position? No.

    Perhaps you'll read it. Thus far the only engagement I've received has been a response that only reinforced the point of the article, and then referred me to John Calvin's condemnation of the Roman Catholic Church. Cleary there's a disconnect somewhere.
     
  12. WisdomTree

    WisdomTree Philosopher

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    <insert picture of a flaming dart here>
     
  13. Shane R

    Shane R Priest Supporter

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    The radical individualism of modern Christianity distorts the account of our salvation. Indeed, Christianity is intensely personal and yet expressed properly and truly in community. It is a lost truth in many circles.
     
  14. AndOne

    AndOne Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men

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    No Calvinist would ever explain TULIP on a philosophical level - it is a system solely based on scripture and therefore its explanation is based upon scripture proofs. Any Calvinist who would attempt to explain TULIP solely on a philosophical level should be ignored.

    If the writer can't prove his position from scripture then its not worth the time or effort for me to read it. I kind of figured there would be no scriptural proofs but figured I would ask anyway.

    I kind of liked the referral to John Calvin's sermon....
     
  15. Hammster

    Hammster Buckeye Newshawk Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, (1 Timothy 2:5 NASB)

    If I'm to believe the article, I'd have to change this.

    Me, to Mary, to Jesus, to the Father.
     
  16. Hammster

    Hammster Buckeye Newshawk Award Winner Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    In a nutshell, we can "pray" to Mary in the same way that those at the wedding feast "prayed" to her, and then she went to Jesus for more wine.

    Oh, and we are all born good.
     
  17. AndOne

    AndOne Deliver me oh Lord, from evil men

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    :doh: Glad I didn't waste time reading it...
     
  18. Tigger45

    Tigger45 St Francis Supporter

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    Thanks Ignatius21 this article is very timely for me. As you may remember I was an EO catechumen last year. Keeping in mind there is a lot of stumbling blocks for a western minded evangelical believer to get through concerning Orthodoxy, one thing that intrigued me was the scriptural development of the Ark of the Covenant and the New Eve from the Old Testament to the New Testament. Belonging to a Lutheran congregation I am free to explore the topic.
     
  19. GigageiTsula

    GigageiTsula Legend

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    Like you, I will stick with Scripture. For example, Jesus Himself said that He is the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). And it is also written in Scripture, "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12).
     
  20. Ignatius21

    Ignatius21 Can somebody please pass the incense?

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    He isn't sticking with Scripture. Nobody is. He's sticking with his Protestant tradition of interpreting Scripture. Ah, the nuances.

    At the end of the day, it's tradition vs. tradition vs. tradition vs. tradition.

    If you haven't read the article, please do. The whole point is that the verse you've cited does not refute or contradict the idea of praying to God with and through the saints. If asking your pastor to pray for you negates Christ's unique role of mediator, then we can talk. Otherwise, the verse you've cited doesn't apply. Not being combative, just pointing things out.
     
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