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Featured Saints who Protect

Discussion in 'Christian Philosophy & Ethics' started by Natsumi Lam, Apr 9, 2019.

  1. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Then why bother with asking the "saints". Christ opened a direct line to Him. He is given all authority..in heaven and earth... I'm not going to ask the mail boy if it's the manager is the one with the authority....
     
  2. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    So, I understand you to be saying that you do not take prayer requests in your church/fellowship? This means that you do not pray for your family members, fellow congregants, the sick or the poor? This would certainly mean that you would never ask anyone else to pray for you.
    Is this your position?
     
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  3. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    They are living and I talk to them personally. Not dead. These people still live in this world and we all Pray to the Father, Son or Holy Spirit...

    I don't pray to them.... I pray WITH them.
     
  4. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Why do you bother with asking the "living" when Christ opened a direct line to Him? He is given all authority..in heaven and earth... you said that you are not going to ask the mail boy if it's the manager is the one with the authority.. why do you ask fellow strugglers on earth to pray for one another when each one has a direct line?
    You equate the Saints of old with 'the mail boy'. That must mean you have a higher opinion of your contemporaries than the Apostles, or martyrs.
    Is this your position?
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  5. Loyce KG

    Loyce KG Everyone MUST hear the gospel of Christ!

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    The apostles' instructions to pray for one another doesn't imply asking deceased saints to pray for us. We are to seek the prayers of those who are with us in this life-here and now.
     
  6. Cis.jd

    Cis.jd Well-Known Member

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    the "fallacy" is based of John 3:16 and other verses that refer to the spiritual being of a person which is the main life of the human being. Not the physical.
     
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  7. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    ^^^ this ^^^ disagrees with what you previously stated.
    You said,
    Are you walking that back now?
    Both you and JacksBratt have previously been denying the role of intercessory prayer.
    Before we can come to any sort of understanding, we have to at least establish some sort of baseline agreement.
     
  8. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    I understand that this is the way you have been taught and the concepts of your particular denomination of Christ following religion...

    However, there is no scripture that tells us to pray to the dead so they can go to Christ on our behalf.... Or.. even worse... do anything of their own power to help us hear in the living dimension.
     
  9. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I doubt very seriously that you understand much of what I have been taught.
    Just being candid, I readily confess I have no idea what you believe because in our brief exchange, you've contradicted yourself.
    In your zeal to denounce the Intercession of the Saints you have denied intercessory prayer altogether. Then walked that back, at least partially.
     
  10. Loyce KG

    Loyce KG Everyone MUST hear the gospel of Christ!

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    Straw man argument. No one denied the vitality of intercessory prayers...the question is the parties at play. If it's between two living souls on earth-yeah. Scripture doesn't ask us to seek the prayers of the deceased saints. Fellowship with others implies-meeting together, sharing in all things including needs. This certainly doesn't apply to those who passed on in Christ.

    “Confess your trespasses to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.”
    ‭‭James‬ ‭5:16‬ ‭
    How will you confess to the dead or vice versa. They are not gods.
     
  11. TuxAme

    TuxAme Quis ut Deus? Supporter

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    We are not gods on earth, either, but that doesn't stop us from making intercession for others. Considering that Jesus conversed with Elijah and Moses, and that John's revelation shows further proof that the dead in body are aware of what's happening on earth, who are we to say that they can't hear us? Especially when the saints are the very ones presenting our prayers to Jesus? How can they be unaware of what they're doing?
     
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  12. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    So, no scripture then.
     
  13. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    There's no strawman when I quoted what you said. You denied intercessory prayer under the guise that there is "one mediator" (post 132). I pointed out that is a misuse of the term "One Mediator". That Christ is indeed the One Mediator between God and man - but anyone can be an intercessor.
    So now you agree with intercessory prayer? yes or no?
     
  14. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    Pastor makes it clear that those who have gone before us are with us at the Eucharist. After all, we proclaim our praise to God with the "whole host of Heaven". That communion is more important than whether or not people are actually here with us in the flesh.

    We have historically not commended the practice of prayers to those who have gone on to their reward because we see no promise attached to doing so in the Scriptures (indeed, in general, in the Lutheran tradition, the central prayers of the Church are public prayers), and because we were concerned about superstitious abuses. But I don't think we exactly have the authority to say that doing so is un-Christian. As Pr. Jordan Cooper himself admits, you will find intercession of the saints in the earliest documents of the Church Fathers. Not as the elaborate superstition you find in the Middle Ages, but it's there.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2019
  15. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    Why would they have those sorts of limitations, since their existence is now qualitatively different from ours? For all we know, spirits and resurrected bodies do not necessarily have any particular spatial extension or limitations of that sort.
     
  16. FenderTL5

    FenderTL5 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No scripture for what? My question to you?
    I believe and practice intercessory prayer and there are loads of scripture in favor of it. Here are a few and this list is not exhaustive.
    Some are instances where we are instructed to pray for others, some are asking for prayer from other individuals, and some are instances of intercessory prayer taking place. I will gladly accept the prayers of any Godly "mail boy" who is willing to pray for me.

    Ephesians 6:18 ESV
    Praying at all times in the Spirit, with all prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert with all perseverance, making supplication for all the saints,

    1 Timothy 2:1 ESV
    First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people,

    Colossians 1:9 ESV
    And so, from the day we heard, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding,

    Matthew 5:44
    But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

    Romans 15:30 ESV
    I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf,

    1 Thessalonians 5:25
    Brothers, pray for us.

    2 Thessalonians 3:1 ESV
    Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you,

    Philippians 1:9-11 ESV
    And it is my prayer that your love may abound more and more, with knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve what is excellent, and so be pure and blameless for the day of Christ, filled with the fruit of righteousness that comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

    Colossians 4:3 ESV
    At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison—

    1 Corinthians 1:4 ESV
    I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,

    Job 42:10 ESV
    And the Lord restored the fortunes of Job, when he had prayed for his friends. And the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.

    Acts 12:5 ESV
    So Peter was kept in prison, but earnest prayer for him was made to God by the church.
    James 5:16
    Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.
     
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  17. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    I've read through this entire thread - and I've got a lot of different quotes (from a variety of people) here.

    Couple of things / questions pop out at me.

    What is the Scriptural definition of "communion" of those who are in body as opposed to those who are not? Is the Scripture clear about a distinction between the two?

    When believers pass from this earth into eternity; is it Scriptural to believe they take on attributes of God such as omnipresence?

    How do we know this is true? All prayers (even pagans) are heard by God; and technically we can say all prayers are answered (yes, no and wait). How do we know though of what those in heaven pray for, other than what is stated in Revelation.

    :oldthumbsup: Good point! Are there any other Scriptures that tell us what those in heaven pray for?

    I find your experience here intriguing. And though I'm not the kind of person who sees ghosts, demons or angels around every corner. There's an aspect of your experience here I can relate to.

    I was in a catastrophic car accident in 2010 and I don't know if this was a dream, a "real" experience of the soul, or a result of being on massive doses of painkillers. LOL I don't know when in the sequences of my consciousness or unconsciousness this happened? I'd lost consciousness on several occasions. The first time was upon the impact of the accident. The second time was in the helicopter on the way to the hospital. Also, I do not recollect most of the rest of that day. I was in the ICU for about 24 hours and I periodically remember waking up screaming in pain. Another "odd" thing happened, that I know was not real; which looking back at it was actually rather comical.

    I'll tell you both stories. Contextually, it's important to know that this accident happened on Easter Sunday.

    Incident #1 - I remember being in this dark space and wondering: am I dead? And in front of me the darkness ripped open and I saw a male figure standing on the other side of this veil of darkness. I could not see the face because there was so much light coming from behind this figure. The first thought that popped into my head was: Oh, It's Jesus! and I got all happy and started running toward him and just before I got to 'the end of the darkness'. The the figure pointed behind me and said: "No, go back, your son needs you." The next thing I remember was hospital equipment beeping and medical personnel doing something to me. Then I passed out again.

    Incident #2 - (This one is funny and I didn't remember it until months later and when I got my medical records from the lawyer after the settlement, the verbal exchange I had with the staff and what they did as a result was in the medical record. So I know the conversation was real.)

    I was calling for someone and a staff came into the room. I kept asking her: "Where'd he go?" She couldn't understand me, so she called a nurse and they are both standing there while I'm asking: "Where'd he go? Tell him to come back here." One asks the other "Where'd who go?" and the other said "You're husband is on the 7th floor." I said: "No, no, I know where he is." Then she said: "Your son is on the 4th floor." And I said: "That's probably where he went. He went to see (son's name). Tell the people on ped's to send him back when he's done." Then the staff person says to the nurse: "Who's she talking about?" And I said: "Jesus." And the staff said: "Jesus who?" And I said: "Jesus Christ! The guy who rose from the dead. It's Easter Sunday. What's the matter with you people!" There're both just looking at me and then at each other. Then the nurse said to the staff person: "The doctors think she has a head injury." (LOL - which was true - I did.) So for lack of knowing what else to do, they called a chaplain.

    Now I don't remember talking to the chaplain that night, but I do remember him coming to see me the next day when I went in for surgery on my leg. I was conscious and remember that conversation. He asked me if I remembered talking to him the night before? I said "no" and he laughed and said: "Well that's probably a good thing."

    So, moral of the story is; just because we think something is real, doesn't mean that it is real, or that it is what we think it is. I was thoroughly convinced that night that Jesus Christ was walking around Strong Memorial Hospital, but I'm pretty sure that belief was a byproduct of my either my mental state at the time, massive doses of pain killers, or both. LOL

    The first incident? Was that a dream? Is there such thing as "near death experience"? I don't know? I did look in the medical records to see if I had been resuscitated? When I do remember waking out of the first surgery; (they had to put my face back together I'd been cut up pretty bad by flying glass. I also lost one eye). I remember my chest hurt really bad, and I thought my back was broken. (It wasn't.) There was no record that they'd resuscitated me either before or during surgery, but in the course of the surgery, would they have recorded that or not? The only thing that was written about the surgery basically was what the injuries were and the post operative antibiotics they prescribed.

    So yes, in the light of my experiences as well as other's I've heard / spoken to, or who've responded to this thread. You raise a very valid question here!
     
  18. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    You raise a good point here too. I'd have to go back and read the passage because I've often wondered was it actually Samuel they'd "contacted"? The reason I wonder this is because of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Can we deduce from that parable that disembodied souls can not communicate with the living? I base this question on these verses.

    Luke 16:29-31

    Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
    And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
    And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

    Is "rising from the dead" upon the part of a deceased human required to communicate with the living on earth? So thus the command in Deuteronomy against involving the deceased (i.e. they are not the ones who are going to answer you if you indeed do get an answer)?

    It does seem from that parable though that it was possible for the souls on either side of the "great divide" (hades / Abraham's bosom) to communicate with each other. Post resurrection and now the souls of the saints being in the 3rd heaven; is that still possible, I don't know? That does not seem likely to me, but I don't know?

    The answer to that may come out of the "definition" of Sheol. Which means "place where they are not heard". Psalm 115:17 speaks of those who "... go down into silence..." which is often interpreted as the unregenerate deceased are not conscious. Yet there's also a geographical place which belonged to the descendants of Ishmael which is derived from the same Hebrew word. So thus I conclude one can not make the argument of "silence" on the Hebrew word alone.

    Now we know from Scripture that angels have appeared in bodily form and communicated to people. Although in some of the instances of this happening, it's not clear the individuals knew this / these were angels.

    Do angels communicate with people today post completion of the written Scripture? That may all be defined by how Scripture parameters communication in light of the completion of the canon? That's something I'd have to research.
     
  19. The Righterzpen

    The Righterzpen Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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    Hebrews 11:13 speak of those who "died in faith". So therefore it is not wrong to say that a believer who's passed from this earth has "died".

    Comparing Scripture with Scripture, building doctrine line upon line, precept upon precept. Things such as the Trinity, nature and Deity of Christ, fate of souls after death, and salvation can be quite clearly delineated from Scripture alone and have no need to rely on traditions passed down.

    :oldthumbsup: Good point!

    :oldthumbsup: Another good point. What does it mean to have communion with someone? Good question!

    :oldthumbsup: Another valid point. No entity God has created will ever bear the fullness of what HE is!

    Those who've passed into eternity do not bear the attributes of God any more than we do on earth. So why would we think our requests of them to pray for us would make our prayers more worthy? In the end God will do what God will do anyways. I've come to the conclusion that prayer draws us more into alignment with God's will than it causes God to act upon our behalf. If we ask something of God yet remind ourselves "not my will but Your's be done"; there's no way we end up outside of His will. Not to say our lack of foresight or understanding may still find us in situations that would behove us to admit that we didn't listen very carefully; yet what man may do in his own shortsightedness, God still uses to His purposes. This is why "all things work together for the good of those who love God, who are called according to His purpose."

    You are correct. We as created entities will never have God-like powers.
     
  20. FireDragon76

    FireDragon76 En cuanto lo hicisteis a uno de estos mis hermanos Supporter

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    There is such a thing as a near death experience, we know because we can examine similar stories and corroborate certain elements they share in common.

    My S.O. had that type of experience years ago as a child while in a deep coma due to getting pneumonia, and it was similar to your description.
     
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