Saints who Protect

[W2L]

That does not say go by the Bible AAlone, going by the Bible Alone is a man made tradition.

Going by the bible alone can help us avoid divisive traditions of man.

 

[prodromos]

For your insulting reply.

Why did you find it insulting?
It was my physical response to your continued dancing around the question.

 

[W2L]

Why did you find it insulting?

You ignored my question and instead posted this

Not a compliment.

 

[truefiction1]

So.... suffering is about learning to love? Is that what you're now trying to say? More suffering makes you love more? That goes along the same lines as "more suffering makes you more grateful".

Well, you know what my experience with that has been? I've seen a lot of suffering. I did clean up after the 1991 Gulf War and bore witness to a lot of destruction.

It didn't make me more loving and grateful though. It made me hate everything America represented to the Middle-East because of how unfairly we dealt with those nations. We sanctioned Iraq for the next ten years; letting millions of people starve to death and die of cancer because we were so (allegedly) afraid of "weapons of mass destruction".

Well, the illuminati oligarchs and their lap dog the MSM, were right on one thing. Iraq did have weapons of mass destruction - that was before February 28, 1991 in the 100 days before when we destroyed them all. (The same ones we sold them 5 years earlier - mind you!) Then we all came home with "Gulf War Syndrome" that the government denied for the next 15 years that it even existed? More vets now have died of complications from the stupid syndrome than were killed in the damn war - all to the "thanks of a grateful nation" - Yeah!

So no, it did not make me more "grateful" or "more loving"; it made me more depressed and disillusioned with a country that didn't seem to me to care.

I was harassed by an employee in a Burger's Bagel shop who literally stood there and made fun of me when I told him to stop screaming because I was in a war and the noise bothered me.

Guess what - well that all changed after 9/11 and suddenly there was a whole hale of a lot of people who knew how I felt!

I will say this though. 9/11 gave me a different perspective on the American people than I had before. I'm still not crazy about the government - and if Trump and military intelligence actually manages to take out the deep state - that would be impressive!

So no, I don't buy that suffering makes us more loving any more than I think we suffer for lack of faith.

Yes, it does actually, within the context of faith and repentance (Romans 5:3-5)

God is love and God is eternal. He existed in that love long before there was any suffering. So no, I reject "there simply is no love with out suffering" too.

Does our God not suffer over His lost sheep? Our God does indeed. How do I know? Because His Love has resided in me, and I have experienced the Divine Love that makes one suffer this sense of great loss for those who do not know God. When we suffer over them, we naturally pray for them to be found, and we rejoice when they are (see the prodigal son parable), because they were dead in sin, but now they are Alive again.

Jesus was not a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] who loved suffering. He willfully endured being forsaken by the rest of the Godhead and eventually died of having his own Divinity ripped from his existence because He loved the Father; not because there was anything worthy in us.

I never said He was a [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse], and I never said that I was or that you or anyone else should be, but Jesus didn't willfully endure suffering only because He loved the Father (though He certainly did love Him). He willfully endured suffering for other reasons (Romans 5:8). Yes, Christ did this out of His Love for us too.

Here's another thing I learned from the war. And this aint any different in any war; whether talking Desert Storm, WWII or the "war of religion". Everyone's grandfather and his brother-in-law stormed the beach at Normandy and liberated Dachau. There was a journalist who conducted a little experiment back in early 2000's. He requested anyone who'd participated in D-Day to write him. He got more responses from survivors of D-Day than the number of American service men who actually participated in D-Day. Now aint that fascinating?

Moral of the story - people lie! If anything has been proven over and over again - that has!

Now you know what goes hand in hand with that? The people who were actually there don't tell heroic war stories about it because it was too traumatizing!

Again, I point back to the people who are obviously and verifiably disabled. Why is it always someone who you can't tell is "disabled" who's had cancer cured? You have any idea how many false positives come back on cancer screenings? Thus the reason for multiple tests.

Joni Erikson-Tada talks about "faith healings" in a book of hers. She went to a "faith healing service" at some giant convention center. There were thousands of people there and she said it was herself and about 30 other people in wheelchairs, who were all put in this one section.

Well all the people who "got healed" were ....... over there----->>>>

And what were they told? You just have to have more faith. If you doubt, it won't happen.

And about 20 minutes before the "event" ended; the "staff" of this "faith healer" started to come and get all the people in this section and roll them out. They lined them all up by the elevator. She said she remembered sitting there, looking around, all these people in wheelchairs looking at each other, all knowing - something here is really wrong - but no one would say anything.

Well, many of the "faith healers" of the 80's and 90's have now been exposed for the frauds that they are. (Back to the point about the war - people lie.)

Yes, people do lie. I'm not lying though. I bet all those people who dismissed Jesus Christ as a fraud did so because they assumed that whatever stories they'd heard about Him working miracles and such were just that: lies. Isn't freewill a wonderful thing? We don't have to believe anything that God would want us to see, because we can always dismiss anything by means of rationale, without actually even investigating, simply by applying the logical formula that "since people lie about things like this, therefor we can honestly conclude that all such things are lies." And furthermore, if a demon is cast out of someone because a Christian came along and asked a saint to pray for the possessed person to be ridden of his demonic affliction, and it worked, then there's either no proof that the person was ever possessed in the first place, or else the demon was cast out by the prince of demons. We don't ever have to believe in anything when it comes to the matter of God.

.... all churches were formed after Pentecost.

Not so, there was one Church that was born at the moment of the coming of the Holy Spirit: being formed at that very instant. That's the one. Reformation is not formation, and the Body of Christ cannot be reformed by men. Don't forget though: prayer and fasting.

God is a rational entity. We'd have no laws of physics if God was not rational. Feelings can be deceptive and experiences (both positive and negative) are not always what we perceive them to be.

Rational, yes, and feelings and experiences can be as you say. But the grace of God is not a feeling, and it cannot be defined by intellectual, abstract thought, because grace is the very uncreated energy coming from the essence of God, and we can't circumscribe the uncircumscribable. Grace is our only means of truly communing with God.

Only problem is the Scripture doesn't tell us to define our faith that way.

2 Timothy 3:
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

This passage gets quoted a lot, but note verse 17. "perfect" and "thoroughly furnished". There's a notion that goes around religious groups that have traditions they hold of equal authority to the Scripture. The notion that its tradition and Scripture - well that isn't what the Scripture tells you. These two verses tell you that the Scripture is what makes one perfect and thoroughly furnished.

Now why does the Bible set only itself in this role?

That's to avoid over here in Ephesians 4:14
That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Make no mistake there are false teachers out there who want to deceive you. Satan wants people to be deceived by religion.

So how do we avoid that?
This brings us to the Bereans in Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

They didn't just take what Paul told them because it was "tradition". No, they took what was said against Scripture they had (the OT) as to what they accepted as truth and doctrine and what didn't line up they rejected.

Now even back when the apostles were preaching there was a lot of false doctrines and false beliefs around. The writers of Scripture wrote about that and warned the people to be careful of who they were listening to.

Now Psalm 119:89 tells us the Bible is an external source. It didn't originate on earth. It's "fixed in heaven" and "holy men of old spoke as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:25 This is why we are to "test the spirits". 1 John 4

And how do we know if "a spirit" is telling us the truth or not? Not by traditions, how we feel or our experiences. We test it by what's written in the Scripture alone!

Here's a "free bee" This passage defines what God considers as "fasting".

Isaiah 58:
2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.

3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours.

4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high.

5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the Lord?

6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

So you are saying that prayer and fasting is not an essential element of our faith, because you can quote some passage from the Old Testament aimed at people who had been guilty of fasting for the wrong reasons, or whose fasting was to no avail because the weren't truly praying along with their fasts, so that they were succumbing to the drives of the evil passions?

Jesus taught by Word and by example that His disciples will be people of prayer and fasting. Faith the size of a grain of mustard seed, which brings with it the power to cast out any sort of demon, cannot be had without prayer and fasting. Reading Scripture is essential to learning and knowing the will of God, and prayer and fasting is essential to opening the door to God's grace, so that Scripture can be properly understood through the reading of it.

 

[W2L]

It was my physical response to your continued dancing around the question.

You danced around mine. There is no disagreement concerning the scripture you posted, im sure we agree that we wont die spiritually.

 

[truefiction1]

That's what the Scriptures tell us.

And the Scriptures tell us what was said to Pilate that made him "more afraid".

John 19:7
The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God.

Now why would this statement make Pilate "more afraid". If Pilate believed Jesus was just some quack who had no substantiation to these claims, what threat would he have been?

Pilate knew more than you think he did.

Now the verse before this, Pilate tells them: You take him and crucify him. Do you know why he said that?

Going back and looking at all of this in the light of everything else that was going on politically. Pilate was pushing them to see how far they would go. Would they murder him themselves? Because if they did; politically, Pilate would have justification to go after them!

So yes, trying to balance his responsibility to Rome against the volatile environment he had to deal with. Pilate is getting it from both ends and he's trying to walk a line that keeps him out of as much trouble as possible. That factor though does not mean he was ignorant of who Jesus was or what was going on.

Pilate was not the not the guy to go to if you were looking for leniency; but he wasn't stupid either.

Pilate did not believe that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God. To me, that makes him ignorant of Truth. I don't think I ever suggested that Pilate was stupid, although I did say that he was clueless about God. God is Good. Pilate was evil.

 

[truefiction1]

Going by the bible alone can help us avoid divisive traditions of man.

Though I can understand why you would think that it would, it always causes countless more divisions though, in actuality. And I think that divisiveness is caused by sinful passions and demons making use of them to sow division among people. I don't think that Holy Tradition causes division.

 

[W2L]

it always causes countless more divisions though, in actuality. /QUOTE]

Tradition doesnt? Go debate holy tradition and see if there isnt division.

What about the division in this thread?

 

[truefiction1]

Tradition doesnt? Go debate holy tradition and see if there isnt division.

What about the division in this thread?

No, Holy Tradition doesn't cause division, it's what makes our continued unity, in Communion with God and with our brothers and sisters in Christ, possible. I'm not referring here to the plurality of customs which people tend to contend with each other over. I'm talking about those things that don't ever change, because they can't be changed, nor can they disappear.

The division in this thread is due to a lack of comprehension by many people regarding the nature of Holy Tradition, and what it provides for us (the Church).

 

[W2L]

No, Holy Tradition doesn't cause division, it's what makes our continued unity, in Communion with God and with our brothers and sisters in Christ, possible. I'm not referring here to the plurality of customs which people tend to contend with each other over. I'm talking about those things that don't ever change, because they can't be changed, nor can they disappear.

The division in this thread is due to a lack of comprehension by many people regarding the nature of Holy Tradition, and what it provides for us (the Church).

I disagree.

 

[truefiction1]

I disagree.

Well, okay then.

(James 3:17)

 

[The Righterzpen]

It's funny you should say all this. Because I got a personal testimony concerning it all.

1) For the most part (almost 100% of the time) I do pray primarily to the Trinity and the individual members of the Godhead just like I did when I was a young Protestant.


2) I however consider myself spiritually speaking "to be in an extended family". But even here when I have my problems, I tend to have my best friend, my shepherd, and other close friends pray for me. But it is in that capacity that the saints exist. They are like your great great uncles and aunts that you can ask for their prayers on those occasions when you feel you need it.


3) And talking about the Holy Spirit, I actually had an interesting time a few years ago.

My wife divorced me a few years ago and that happened after I moved away from my home state. Initially that was very painful, I had just come out of a depressing time of being unemployed and now I was socially isolated because all my friends and relatives were back in California, and the divorce would mean I would loose the few social contacts that I had in my new home.

Anyway on this one time of prayer and fasting I did receive a powerful revelation of being of the sensation of "Being in the Body of Christ" and "Being in the Communion of saints". In Orthodoxy we realize that while we may be praying alone here on Earth, our prayers and worship is part of the Greater Worship that takes place in heaven. And that is something that actually is referenced in the book of Revelation a few times.

Anyway it this sort of thing that I don't think many Protestants really get. If you look at the Bible our Faith and Salvation is referenced more in group terms than in individualistic terms.

But I almost forgot the best part. The event took away most of the loneliness etc, that I was feeling! Anyway rather than being unbiblical, this sort of thing is far far from it. In general, I actually pity you that you can't actually relate to this and want to twist this sort of thing into necromancy.

It's not a matter of "not relating" to "great cloud of witnesses". I agree with you that there's a great multitude in heaven praying about things going on on earth. At the very least, martyrs praying for their blood to be avenged. (I.E. People praying for justice.)

There are believers I knew who've died and sometimes I think to myself; I'm looking forward to seeing that person again. There are famous people I think were believers that I'm looking forward to actually meeting on the other side of eternity. Then there are people I had no idea were believers until I read things that they wrote. And reading something someone wrote 200 or 400 or what ever years before I ever lived, that bears the same record I do, of the grace of the same God, I recognize that witness through the centuries. I'm looking forward to running into some of those people and saying: "Hey, I know you. I read your memoir; and let me tell you, not much changed 200 years later," LOL "But what a testimony to the power of redemption."

So yes, I think about those people and I'm glad they are part of the bigger picture; yet the Scripture does not instruct me to ask them to pray for me, so I don't do that. I see no examples of that in the New Testament. The closest I see is Jesus praying for people who don't exist yet. That to me is like praying for people in China or North Korea, or Iran or wherever that I don't even know. I don't see any place in Scripture that tells us "don't do that". As far as those who've now passed into eternity; I have an advocate in heaven and I'm sorry, you just can not get away from the verses that forbid petitioning the dead. I personally see no point in that. They don't ask us to pray for them.

Why do we ask people on earth to pray for us? Because while we walk this journey, what we are actually praying for is help to get through this walk.

Now you can argue, "What's the difference?" Yet there are parameters put around all sorts of things. There's certain things I don't do with another human being unless I'm married to them. There are certain things I'd do for my kid that I would not do for anyone else. My son likes the video game Destiny. I know almost nothing about the game; but I took him to "Guardian con" because it was important to him. I would not have footed thousands of dollars to fly anyone else to Florida for that.

Besides this, there just are things Scripture tells us are not profitable for us to do; whether they are "technically lawful" now or not. Not everything is expedient to our spiritual walk. When the Old Testament said don't make graven images you pay homage to, don't petition the dead, don't .....(fill in the blank). There are valid reasons for all of that. Though the OT was a foreshadow of things to come and was fulfilled in Christ, there's still a lot of wisdom there.

 

[prodromos]

You danced around mine.

I'm waiting for you to answer my question before I can consider yours.

There is no disagreement concerning the scripture you posted, im sure we agree that we wont die spiritually.

I can't know until you answer the question.

 

[W2L]

I'm waiting for you to answer my question before I can consider yours.

I can't know until you answer the question.

I just answered it. Your question was about my interpretation of Matthew 22:32? Correct? My answer was

There is no disagreement concerning the scripture you posted, im sure we agree that we wont die spiritually.

 

[prodromos]

I just answered it. Your question was about my interpretation of Matthew 22:32? Correct? My answer was

Since I don't know what you mean by "spiritually alive", I'm still left scratching my head at your answer. Are you able to please provide a little more depth?

 

[W2L]

Since I don't know what you mean by "spiritually alive", I'm still left scratching my head at your answer. Are you able to please provide a little more depth?

1 Corinthians 15:44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

 

[ChicanaRose]

We don't want to discredit personal testimonies/ experiences of others. But I think it is reasonable to question the origin. There is no reason to doubt that the miracle indeed took place after one's invocation of saints. But what, or who rather, was the source? Taking the time to think about this is just a part of one's spiritual discernment process.

 

[thecolorsblend]

We don't want to discredit personal testimonies/ experiences of others

Why not? Feeeeeeeeeeeelings are the easiest element of any religious experience to fake, be mistaken about or misunderstand.

Honestly, personal experience might be the least trustworthy authority somebody can invoke.

 

[anna ~ grace]

We don't want to discredit personal testimonies/ experiences of others. But I think it is reasonable to question the origin. There is no reason to doubt that the miracle indeed took place after one's invocation of saints. But what, or who rather, was the source? Taking the time to think about this is just a part of one's spiritual discernment process.

This might help, Rose;

Acts 19:11-12

And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

We would say that as God chooses to work through a holy man or woman while he or she is still on earth, so He can keep working through them after they have left the earth to be with Him.

 

[ChicanaRose]

Why not? Feeeeeeeeeeeelings are the easiest element of any religious experience to fake, be mistaken about or misunderstand.

Honestly, personal experience might be the least trustworthy authority somebody can invoke.

Some experiences are witnessed by others, proven medically, or recorded on camera.