Saint Junia - Female Apostle?

[TheLostCoin]

So, I was in discussion and debate (as usual) on another thread, and a person who is in favor of female ordination (going so far as to say that those who prevent female ordination are committing great evils), and he brings up Romans 16:7, where Saint Paul says that a person by the name of Junia is among the Apostles.

Now, although the name is strikingly feminine, what's more is that in Orthodoxy, this individual is a known female Saint with relics.

Saint John Chrysostom wrote that her missionary work was so astounding that Saint Paul labels her as though she was among the Apostles - but...

It seems that the verse itself explicitly says that she is an Apostle. He says "who are of note among the Apostles."

And by Apostle, we don't mean of the 12, we mean of the 70 - but still - what does this say about issues of female ordination if there is a female Apostle in the New Testament?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Apostles were not necessarily ordained. it just means they were sent to preach the Gospel. St Mary Magdalene is called the Apostle to the Apostles.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Apostles were not necessarily ordained. it just means they were sent to preach the Gospel. St Mary Magdalene is called the Apostle to the Apostles.

But Mary Magdalene has the title "Apostle to the Apostles" not because she was among the 70, but rather, because she was the first person to preach to the Apostles that Christ has risen - hence being an Apostle to the Apostles.

But I guess this brings up another question - what is the difference between the ranks of the 12 Apostles and the 70 Apostles? Does this mean that Saint Mark isn't really an Apostle in the same sense that Saint Matthew is? And was Saint Paul even one of the 12 Apostles, probably once one of them kicked the bucket? Or did he just join the 70? Why do they have the same title?

 

[FireDragon76]

Mark and Luke were evangelists.

 

[Radagast]

So, I was in discussion and debate (as usual) on another thread, and a person who is in favor of female ordination (going so far as to say that those who prevent female ordination are committing great evils), and he brings up Romans 16:7, where Saint Paul says that a person by the name of Junia is among the Apostles.

Now, although the name is strikingly feminine, what's more is that in Orthodoxy, this individual is a known female Saint with relics.

The name itself isn't "strikingly feminine." It appears in the Greek as the accusative "Junian." That could be a male "Junias" or a female "Junia."

Tradition is something else, and I'd be interested in an overview of Orthodox tradition concerning him/her. I know that Origen thought that he/she was a man.

 

[All4Christ]

She is traditionally considered to be female in the Orthodox Church.

St. Junia

The name itself isn't "strikingly feminine." It appears in the Greek as the accusative "Junian." That could be a male "Junias" or a female "Junia."

Tradition is something else, and I'd be interested in an overview of Orthodox tradition concerning him/her.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Mark and Luke were evangelists.

Yes, but they were a part of the 70 (Luke 10:1-24). The Western Christian traditions identify the 70 as "Disciples," whereas in the East, they were titled "Apostles."

If you go to a Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, and the Gospel of Luke or Mark is read, the Priest asks for the intercession of the "Holy Apostle and Evangelist Mark / Luke", and the Coptic Church claims that the Alexandrian Church is an Apostolic See because it was founded by Saint Mark.

They weren't part of the 12 Apostles, but they were of the 70.

 

[Radagast]

She is traditionally considered to be female in the Orthodox Church.

St. Junia

Thank you.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Tradition is something else, and I'd be interested in an overview of Orthodox tradition concerning him/her. I know that Origen thought that he/she was a man.

Yeah, while I don't always consider Tradition to be infallible for certain stories in Christianity
(Sorry, but I seriously doubt that the Ethiopian Orthodox have the Ark of the Covenant - Is the Ark of the Covenant in Ethiopia?, and I doubt that Saint Joseph of Arimathea evangelized in England - Joseph of Arimathea - Wikipedia),

it says something that she is a female by Tradition and we have relics of her. It's possible that the Tradition might of messed up due to the ambiguous nature of the name, and it's actually a dude that Saint Paul is talking about, but the fact that it was just accepted as a female without question for centuries raises questions.

 

[archer75]

Again, I am all for questions of all types, but why are we assuming that the 70 were ordained?

 

[ArmyMatt]

But Mary Magdalene has the title "Apostle to the Apostles" not because she was among the 70, but rather, because she was the first person to preach to the Apostles that Christ has risen - hence being an Apostle to the Apostles.

But I guess this brings up another question - what is the difference between the ranks of the 12 Apostles and the 70 Apostles? Does this mean that Saint Mark isn't really an Apostle in the same sense that Saint Matthew is? And was Saint Paul even one of the 12 Apostles, probably once one of them kicked the bucket? Or did he just join the 70? Why do they have the same title?

right, so an Apostle is one who is sent to preach, regardless of sex or ordination.

the 12 were just Christ's more inner circle.

 

[mark kennedy]

Women can be ministers, apparently Junia was involved in the Apostolic ministry. Should this surprise us, Priscilla and Aquila were key people in the ministry that led to the founding of at least seven churches from Ephesus, the church in Ephesus was likely just a home fellowship for a long time in their home.

 

[Not David]

I don't understand the question. Since when is being an Apostle equal to ordination? Also, I don't believe Orthodox are against women having positions at the Church.

 

[archer75]

This does raise a sort of interesting question - are our bishops said to be the successors of the 12 Apostles only?

 

[~Anastasia~]

But Mary Magdalene has the title "Apostle to the Apostles" not because she was among the 70, but rather, because she was the first person to preach to the Apostles that Christ has risen - hence being an Apostle to the Apostles.

But I guess this brings up another question - what is the difference between the ranks of the 12 Apostles and the 70 Apostles? Does this mean that Saint Mark isn't really an Apostle in the same sense that Saint Matthew is? And was Saint Paul even one of the 12 Apostles, probably once one of them kicked the bucket? Or did he just join the 70? Why do they have the same title?

St Paul is generally pictured in iconography as one of the 12, replacing Judas Iscariot. Matthias (who drew the lot to replace Judas) is not pictured as one of the 12.

 

[Albion]

So, I was in discussion and debate (as usual) on another thread, and a person who is in favor of female ordination (going so far as to say that those who prevent female ordination are committing great evils), and he brings up Romans 16:7, where Saint Paul says that a person by the name of Junia is among the Apostles.

Now, although the name is strikingly feminine, what's more is that in Orthodoxy, this individual is a known female Saint with relics.

Saint John Chrysostom wrote that her missionary work was so astounding that Saint Paul labels her as though she was among the Apostles - but...

It seems that the verse itself explicitly says that she is an Apostle. He says "who are of note among the Apostles."

And by Apostle, we don't mean of the 12, we mean of the 70 - but still - what does this say about issues of female ordination if there is a female Apostle in the New Testament?

The word means one who is sent, that's all. Note also that although the word is capitalized in this thread, in all the major Bible translations it is rendered as apostle or apostles--even in the link given in the OP.

 

[AMM]

St Paul is generally pictured in iconography as one of the 12, replacing Judas Iscariot. Matthias (who drew the lot to replace Judas) is not pictured as one of the 12.

This could be its whole on thread but I was wondering this yesterday during liturgy -- why is Matthias not considered one of the 12? Isn't this sort of like the tribes of Israel: Joseph's tribe is replaced by two tribes (Ephraim and Manasseh); in the same way, Judas is replaced by two (Paul and Matthias). 12 becomes 11 becomes 13.

 

[ArmyMatt]

This does raise a sort of interesting question - are our bishops said to be the successors of the 12 Apostles only?

no, because the 70 also founded Sees (i.e. St Mark in Alexandria)

 

[archer75]

no, because the 70 also founded Sees (i.e. St Mark in Alexandria)

Interesting, so it is our tradition that a woman was among them?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Interesting, so it is our tradition that a woman was among them?

looking at the actual Scriptural quote, I don't think so. at least not the 12 or the 70 who founded Sees since women weren't bishops.

but, there were still female Apostles.