Saddleback Church supports wife batterers

[Yitzchak]

Not; according to GOD.

According to GOD Jesus, once we (each of us)
1. are by HIM *Soul-saved*
&
2. Welcome God ruling in our heart/emotions,
&
3. 2 Corinthians 5:17 "[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.
the old has gone; the new (LIFE) has come![/FONT]"
then (sinners no more); GOD Jesus calls us "HIS friends..."

Go learn...brother.

Is this sarcasm ? Do you really think I am unaware of basic Christian doctrine ? In the context of our discussion , it is an odd point to bring up.

Your point implies that Jesus is a friend of this husband in the story who was convicted of beating his wife and that he is not a sinner.

I am not sure where you are going with this one.


I don't see how we can judge this man as guilty and at the same time say he is not a sinner. It seems like a contradiction. We are once again back to the impartiality issue. Grace is either available to all or it is available to none. God does not prefer one sinner over another.

 

[Yitzchak]

My sister-in-law was abused. Her husband beat her in the head with a baseball bat and she almost died., She had surgery and has permanent damage.

In some ways the mind games were even worse. He used to take a gun and put it to her head and pull the trigger. It was not loaded. But she did not know that. He would taunt her with it until she peed her pants. There were no marks or bruises physically from those kind of mind games , but I consider that extreme abuse. It messed her up. She is still not really emotionally recovered. Panic attacks , trouble holding down a job. She sabatoges all of her relationships because she has trust issues and flips out a lot.

Some sick and twisted things went on in that situation. But I will tell you this. She was quite dysfunctional and emotionally abusive before that happened. Now she is worse. She routinely mistreats people and feels no one can question her because of what she went through.

If she wants everyone to go to the mall on Sunday afternoon with her and we say that we have other plans , she will call later or stop by and scream obscenities going up one side and down the other accusing us and name calling. She broods about stuff and then attacks people the next time she sees them. We have had to set boundaries because of it.

She was abusive before she was abused. But now she is twice or three times as bad. She went through something really hard. But there is nothing Christian about the way she is handling it.

She could go the rest of her life and never recover and never find healing.

I have never had anyone do to me what was done to my sister-in-law. But I have been the victim of abuse. But I don't really define myself by those experiences.

I see those who do identify themselves as chronic victims who feel that they need to control the whole world to make sure no one has the chance to abuse them again and in the process become abusers.

My spirit recoils at the spirit behind most of this. I don't feel Jesus in it. Just angry people demanding control that is not rightfully theirs because they are living out of fear.


We all face difficult things in life that break us. If you are young , you may not have encountered that yet. Some of us have suffered child abuse , domestic abuse , sexual abuse , rape , been the victim of violent crimes , etc , etc. For some of us it is stuff like divorce , maybe your spouse cheated on you or one or a couple of your children died.

Many of us have held on to our faith through some tough situations.


I vote against self pity.

 

[probinson]

Does this mean you only accept stories that are printed in major media outlets?

No. It means I only accept stories after I've had the opportunity to examine for myself sourced information. He said-she said doesn't do it for me, which is all these "stories" consist of.

The Bible, and US courts, accept the testimony of one or two witnesses.

Yes, but unlike many, the US court system attempts to verify those testimonies.

I wouldn;t call it anonymous, the story starts like this:

I am Andrew and Jamie Wommacks ex daughter in-law, and I can tell you first hand the hypocrisies that man teaches with his wife by his side, they profess to know and teach God's love, but bear false witness against their neighbor in court.

Their son Jonathan Peter is currently serving time in El paso county jail for beating me. Thru out my marriage into that family, I confessed to not only Andrew but Jamie about the physical abuse...

But why have you chosen to believe any of that is true? The comment was posted anonymously and begins "Anonymous said..." So why do you automatically just accept that it's true, despite the fact that no one can verify that this comment did in fact originate from "Andrew and Jamie Wommack's ex-daughter in-law"? Have you verified the truthfulness of this claim at all?

The fact is, you're citing an unverified anonymous comment on a blog. Try to spin it however you like, but unverified anonymous blog comments do not constitute substantive or trustworthy testimony, IMO, and I suspect were you to try to cite this comment as "evidence" in a US court of law, you'd be laughed out of the courtroom.

Now you're changing your tune... You were claiming the stories couldn't be verified. What you actually said:

There is absolutely no way to verify anything in that comment
(bold emphasis Pete's)

I'm merely telling you how stories can be verified, if you want to.

Well then, I stand corrected in my choice of words.

So let me ask you again... have you in any way verified either of these stories, or are you just accepting them at face value?

 

[gratefulgrace]

My sister-in-law was abused. Her husband beat her in the head with a baseball bat and she almost died., She had surgery and has permanent damage.

In some ways the mind games were even worse. He used to take a gun and put it to her head and pull the trigger. It was not loaded. But she did not know that. He would taunt her with it until she peed her pants. There were no marks or bruises physically from those kind of mind games , but I consider that extreme abuse. It messed her up. She is still not really emotionally recovered. Panic attacks , trouble holding down a job. She sabatoges all of her relationships because she has trust issues and flips out a lot.

Some sick and twisted things went on in that situation. But I will tell you this. She was quite dysfunctional and emotionally abusive before that happened. Now she is worse. She routinely mistreats people and feels no one can question her because of what she went through.

If she wants everyone to go to the mall on Sunday afternoon with her and we say that we have other plans , she will call later or stop by and scream obscenities going up one side and down the other accusing us and name calling. She broods about stuff and then attacks people the next time she sees them. We have had to set boundaries because of it.

She was abusive before she was abused. But now she is twice or three times as bad. She went through something really hard. But there is nothing Christian about the way she is handling it.

She could go the rest of her life and never recover and never find healing.

I have never had anyone do to me what was done to my sister-in-law. But I have been the victim of abuse. But I don't really define myself by those experiences.

I see those who do identify themselves as chronic victims who feel that they need to control the whole world to make sure no one has the chance to abuse them again and in the process become abusers.

My spirit recoils at the spirit behind most of this. I don't feel Jesus in it. Just angry people demanding control that is not rightfully theirs because they are living out of fear.


We all face difficult things in life that break us. If you are young , you may not have encountered that yet. Some of us have suffered child abuse , domestic abuse , sexual abuse , rape , been the victim of violent crimes , etc , etc. For some of us it is stuff like divorce , maybe your spouse cheated on you or one or a couple of your children died.

Many of us have held on to our faith through some tough situations.


I vote against self pity.

I am taking back my subscription at least for this post. I read your above entry and my heart went out to you and your family. This is a sad sad situation. No one should have to go through these things. I too have suffered and perhaps that is why I have a soft spot for those who have been abused and little for the perpetrators. However I do not condone the development of a victim mentality. It is totally ineffective in the emotional healing needed to move on, and will only lead to more and greater sin. I was very fortunate to be able to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit and receive proper help as an adult to move me beyond the pain and depression and fear that my childhood instilled in me. I could not even talk openly about what had happened to me as a child until I was in my 30's except to my husband and he didn't get it that I was very damaged by it. He minimized my pain and that hurt too. I was so ashamed.
However God has freed me and now I freely share what he has done in my life.
Howver and this is important to understand, there is a time in the healing process when disclosure is not only important for recovery it is vital. I did not find that help in the church unfortunately but in secular counselling. Now in the scenario we have been discussing, I choose to believe that what this woman is doing is trying to make sense of it all and move on. She was rejected and abused by husband and her church. She was obviously very dependent on that fellowship (not altogether a good thing spiritually) and so losing that I believe has further traumatized her spiritual security. why else would she not find new fellowhsip and why continue to listen to sermons from Saddleback via internet. Pehaps this is why she is still suffering after all these years she has not had anyone to pray with and rebuke the chords of abusive control over her life. The church should have done this they did not. It is pretty sad. Just saying she should reject self pity although true is a pretty simplistic idea. She needs spiritual deliverance and I dare say her ex does as well.Picking ourselves up by the spiritual boot straps doesn't work. Only the Lord Jesus can heal those deep wounds. As a survivor I am sure you know this. You said it yourself:
'My spirit recoils at the spirit behind most of this. I don't feel Jesus in it. Just angry people demanding control that is not rightfully theirs because they are living out of fear.' Of course you don't sense Jesus because satan is in control here but until that spirit is broken it will stay the same and all our condemnation and lecturing of the individuals involved will do no lasting work of healing in their lives. gg

 

[sk8Joyful]

Originally Posted by Yitzchak
Typically when a marriage breaks up, there is emotional and verbal abuse on both sides.
[/quote]

response: And you would know that how?

If you have to ask that question,

No, I didn't have to ask the question, as from
Personal,+Witness,+Professional-experiences
in this area, I know that your comment was not correct.

then you have led a sheltered life.

response: And you would know that how??

your question seems disingenuous to me.

I'm sure in a negative frame-of-mind, alot
of things can "seem disingenuous" to you.

But you can't project your own negativity, unto another person.

Your claiming all this gritty life experience in the trenches
of the domestic violence issue and you are unaware of this ??

even tho you started with "typically"... what is so in
some instances, does in fact, NOT make it true in ALL.
There are people, mostly women, not dys-functional,
who did/do Not act-out, whether emotional, verbal, physical, whatever.

There are people who ARE born-again Christians,
bearing their children righteously, setting a moral, happy & healthy examples for them to follow...

Refrain from making blanket-statements, based on
maybe 1-4 such examples of which you have personal awareness.

Some of us, myself included, have dealt with 100's such
terrible situations in a variety of work-experiences...,
we are much better able to say what is, & what is not, accurate.

 

[sk8Joyful]

Is this sarcasm ?

Hello
Why would my bringing up this: (("Tragic
is how many 'christians' do not even know IF they are "by God saved", or
whether God still thinks of them as 'sinner' after wards. Really,
they lack an intimate-relationship with GOD as He Relates to us.

The Bible is very clear about this:

According to GOD/Jesus, once we (each of us)
1. are by HIM *Soul-saved*
&
2. Welcome God ruling in our heart/emotions,
&
3. 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation.
the old has gone ; the new (LIFE) has come!"
then (sinners no more); GOD Jesus calls us "HIS friends..."))

you mis-construe in this discussion as sarcasm?

I quoted myself (btw. from my own Forum), because

didn't you say the Batterer "professed" to be a Christian?
A true (2 Corinthians 5:17 Christian) man would NEVER batter his wife, etc. &
then
you tried to excuse what he did, by saying wife "pushed his buttons". Nope.
All such is non-sense "Victim-making". <- STOP!

Do you really think I am unaware of basic Christian doctrine ?

Your point implies that Jesus is a friend of this husband
in the story who was convicted of beating his wife and that he is not a sinner.

I am not sure where you are going with this one.

Most people will agree, that when you are
'not sure' - where someone else is going,
the best procedure is to simply ASK... this person. Amazing! what you can then learn,
provided you do want to learn empowering & POSITIVE things, which is why I quoted this scripture, btw.
.

 

[Yitzchak]

I am taking back my subscription at least for this post. I read your above entry and my heart went out to you and your family. This is a sad sad situation. No one should have to go through these things. I too have suffered and perhaps that is why I have a soft spot for those who have been abused and little for the perpetrators. However I do not condone the development of a victim mentality. It is totally ineffective in the emotional healing needed to move on, and will only lead to more and greater sin. I was very fortunate to be able to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit and receive proper help as an adult to move me beyond the pain and depression and fear that my childhood instilled in me. I could not even talk openly about what had happened to me as a child until I was in my 30's except to my husband and he didn't get it that I was very damaged by it. He minimized my pain and that hurt too. I was so ashamed.
However God has freed me and now I freely share what he has done in my life.
Howver and this is important to understand, there is a time in the healing process when disclosure is not only important for recovery it is vital. I did not find that help in the church unfortunately but in secular counselling. Now in the scenario we have been discussing, I choose to believe that what this woman is doing is trying to make sense of it all and move on. She was rejected and abused by husband and her church. She was obviously very dependent on that fellowship (not altogether a good thing spiritually) and so losing that I believe has further traumatized her spiritual security. why else would she not find new fellowhsip and why continue to listen to sermons from Saddleback via internet. Pehaps this is why she is still suffering after all these years she has not had anyone to pray with and rebuke the chords of abusive control over her life. The church should have done this they did not. It is pretty sad. Just saying she should reject self pity although true is a pretty simplistic idea. She needs spiritual deliverance and I dare say her ex does as well.Picking ourselves up by the spiritual boot straps doesn't work. Only the Lord Jesus can heal those deep wounds. As a survivor I am sure you know this. You said it yourself:
'My spirit recoils at the spirit behind most of this. I don't feel Jesus in it. Just angry people demanding control that is not rightfully theirs because they are living out of fear.' Of course you don't sense Jesus because satan is in control here but until that spirit is broken it will stay the same and all our condemnation and lecturing of the individuals involved will do no lasting work of healing in their lives. gg

Thank you. This is an edifying post. I appreaciate it.

 

[sk8Joyful]

Hi Jan,
Most of what you said, is spot on, particularly
these points:

my heart went out to you and your family.
This is a sad sad situation. No one should have to go through these things.
I too have suffered and
perhaps that is why I have a soft spot for those who have been abused and
little for the perpetrators.

However I do not condone the development of a victim mentality
- is totally ineffective in the emotional healing needed to move on,
and will only lead to more and greater sin.

I was very fortunate to be able to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit
and receive proper help as an adult to move me beyond the pain
and depression and fear that my childhood instilled in me.

I could not even talk openly about what had happened to me as a child
until I was in my 30's except to my husband and he didn't get it that I was very damaged by it.
He minimized my pain and that hurt too. I was so ashamed.
However God has freed me and now I freely share what he has done in my life.

However and this is important to understand, there is a time in the healing process
when disclosure is not only important for recovery, it is vital.
I did not find that help in the church unfortunately but in secular counseling.

Now in the scenario we have been discussing, I choose to believe
that she was rejected and abused by husband, and her church.
What this woman is doing is trying to make sense of it all and move on.
She was obviously very dependent on that fellowship
(not altogether a good thing spiritually) and so losing that
I believe has further traumatized her spiritual security. why else would she not find new fellowhship
and why continue to listen to sermons from Saddleback via internet.
She is still suffering after all these years because she has not had anyone to pray with and
rebuke the chords of abusive control over her life.
The church should have done this, they did not. It is pretty sad.

Just saying she should reject self pity, although true, is a pretty simplistic idea.
She needs spiritual deliverance and I dare say her ex does as well.

Picking ourselves up by the spiritual boot straps doesn't work.
Only the Lord Jesus can heal those deep wounds.
As a survivor I am sure you know this. ... lasting work of healing in their lives. gg

I am glad you Jan got the help you needed, of abuse to set yourself FREE

 

[gratefulgrace]

Hi Jan,
Most of what you said, is spot on, particularly
these points:

I am glad you Jan got the help you needed, of abuse to set yourself FREE

Thanks Yitzchak and sk8Joyful.
I do not say that I set myself free but that God delivered me. It has been a long journey but without God I doubt I would have made it. gg

 

[sk8Joyful]

Hello Yitzchak,
I am going to reply to this, your post, in sections...
as yours is l.o.n.g.; &
coupled with my response would make it way too long.

I took the time to respond, as it's a subject
with which I've had decades of experience, &
thus I am passionate about it, but in a good way.

I hope you read thoughtfully... as it is deep & meaty, if you follow what that means.

Originally Posted by Yitzchak

My sister-in-law was abused. Her husband beat her
in the head with a baseball bat and she almost died.,
She had surgery and has permanent damage.

In some ways the mind games were even worse. He used
to take a gun and put it to her head and pull the trigger. It was not loaded. But she did not know that.
He would taunt her with it until she peed her pants. There were no marks or bruises physically
from those kind of mind games, but I consider that extreme abuse.
It messed her up.
​

I am sorry to read of another terrible nightmare,
no one should ever encounter, or suffer through.

And some of us have been thru worse,
in ways I hope you will never know.

She was abusive, before she was abused.
But now she is twice or three times as bad.
She went through something really hard.

Yes, but she was NOT born abusive; so someone,
somewhere messed her up, before! she married him.
and
it's critically important: the CYCLE-of-abuse STOP, in:
1. the home, in the family, by living God/Christ's counsels...
2. the churches, before it can stop in a greater community:
a) when a couple is planning a marriage, they should have any
remaining issues healed... before the 'I DO' so
they can start their family Saved, with a genuinely Happy-mind & a healthy-body.
a healthy Soul+Mind+Body in both parents should be a given.
Every child deserves the best...<- this is how GOD intends us to behave...

b) when a couple is planning a BABY...before the 'conception',
they should be learning pain-FREE childbirth, & healthy Bonding,
such that their children, each of them, develop Wanted & Nourished & Nurtured
while yet in the womb: to birth easily, quickly, & in complete peace & joy
(& spare us the hogwash 'nope, that's not reality');
because for those who birth-Right mom, dad, & bad are blissful <- this is how GOD intends us to behave...

c) when a couple is planning (whatever), they should be able to function as a healthy Individual
aside functioning as a healthy couple <- this is how GOD intends us to behave...

How do I know these things? - I have provided these services, that's how.

I know the cycle-of-abuse CAN be broken, people DO heal, & live wonderful... lives.

 

[sk8Joyful]

But
there is nothing Christian about the way she is handling it.
She could go the rest of her life and
never recover and never find healing. I vote against self pity.

As Jan already said, 'self-pity' doesn't get you anywhere fast.
At 1st. tho, it is essential that a victim hears: "I am so sorry you suffered, & still suffer. That is terrible"
and
then, you help them progressively... get their own self-control back, &
with someone competent, other people have been known to experience such healing, in less than a month.

I have never had anyone do to me what was done to my sister-in-law.

But I have been the victim of abuse. But I don't really define myself by those experiences.

Well (except for when I was 5), I never defined myself
by the multiple horrors I experienced either; because I knew better.

But - neither me, nor you - are your sister-in-law.
Everyone of us is different: in our perceptions, in our awarenesses, & in our responses, along with everything else.
No 2 Individuals are alike; which is why it is crucial,
that she TEAM-UP with a successful coach, who can guide her.
From what you said she's never had the right-kind of help,
so she can function as God intended she function:
put-together, healed, & Congruent so she can use her insights to help yet others. -

(It's not unlike an abortion-survivor/Thrivor, you know; who then becomes a staunch PRO-lifer,
the passion of which you'd be hardpressed to match, unless you had the benefit of that experience.)
You see, what doesn't kill you outright, can only make you Stronger ; and
once this precious soul is helped to heal, she too can be an Advocate &
helpful resource, when she so chooses to PRAISE God.
.

 

[sk8Joyful]

We all face difficult things in life that break us.

If you are young, you may not have encountered that yet.

And too many children get broken, while yet in the
womb; as we who counsel such Individuals in their own healing, only too well know.
&
Thank you sincerely for the complement, re age - Yes,
(tho chronologically 60); undaunted I cont. like a 23 year young kid.
How am I able to do this? (several ways); & #5 is a vital skill,
((many Centenarians, of all people, will confirm,
when asked
how they survived multiple world-wars, & other disasters, into their 100's.
Astutely they tell you: "5 key elements in their lives:
1. Being optimistic iow a positive attitude.
2. Engagement: as the degree of passion one feels for life,
how connected one feels to it, & retaining, or
discovering, a sense of purpose. Continuing...
practicing the activities in life one loves & feels strongly about.

3. LEARN at least 5-10 fun new things or skills every day.

4. maintain physical Independence: Being active & mobile, moving,
functioning and maintain exercise independence.
5. Adaptability to loss, and resilience :
Centenarians know how to REframe/transform the difficulties of life.
Leave! distress, so you are never hopelessly stuck in it.
Yes, there are hellish experiences, but ultimately just let it go.
An important part is also FORGIVENESS (it may not impact
the abuser), but it will set the victim FREE, & allow a transformed type of resurrection.
The faster one learns how to do just this, the happier and stronger he or she will be.
And the longer, happier life you will live. -

And you know: an ABUNDANT-life is exactly what God/Jesus us each created for, to enjoy! ...))

by the grace of GOD, and a few other best friends, we can all thrive...
.

 

[Yitzchak]

Sk8joyful , I really like your last few posts. I need some time to pray about them before responding.

 

[sk8Joyful]

Sk8joyful
I really like your last few posts.
I need some time to pray about them before responding.

Sure, when we pray from the depth of our soul,
our Sharing-time with God is beyond words...
I love to chat with Heavenly Father,
& bask in His ever-increasing LOVE... Enjoy it!

 

[TasManOfGod]

It seems like this church supports wife bashing as much as Jesus supported adultery

 

[Faith77]

THANK YOU (3X), Oscarr.

I have only just read through this thread, and I sincerely thank you for advocating for survivors, particularly those in churches.

This thread is a few years old, I know, but it is sad that clearly, from reading some of the responses, the myths are alive and well. Until we get rid of those myths, domestic violence will be an issue in churches. Abusers know they have support. They have people unwittingly carrying their flag. If my abusive ex-husband had read some of the posts, he would have jumped for joy.

How do these men change? Research shows that they change when all the systems around them - legal, law enforcement, family, community, friends - come against their violence. As long as they can justify their violence, and find friends who will sympathize with them, they will not change. They are master manipulators and know that church leaders are easy to manipulate, particularly if they have not been trained in domestic violence. Clergy who try to handle such situations do more harm than good.

If I had not gone through a similar thing, I would have not believed that what the situation in Saddleback could have happened in such a reputable church (which I have visited). When I tell of my story (and it is typical - I have found many others from my church who tell the same story), other ministers cannot believe that my church (a good, reputable one) could have had such a moral failure in their system that they allowed a perpetrator to continue his violence, even after the court imposed its punishment, and I was forced to leave the church.

How did it happen? It wasn't that they didn't support me - they assured me of their support when I separated. I got my domestic violence advocate to talk to them about my high risk situation so that they would understand the support I needed. Not a problem. It's not that they condone domestic abuse - no sane person would.

It all boiled down to their lack of training and understanding of domestic violence. It meant that they didn't know how much he would manipulate them, how they would give him more weapons, how they would be caught short by not checking out his stories with me, how they would be ineffective in their ministry if they only sympathised without holding him accountable, how they needed to refer him to specialist services, how they needed to keep prioritizing my safety but failed to even recognize the risk we were in, how they allowed him to attend everything, serve and continue social abuse by not putting boundaries. It's how they keep failing to see the signs of domestic abuse with countless couples and instead try to mediate as if there were mutual issues. All the well-known "No-No"s when dealing with domestic violence.

Oscarr, may God bless you as you stand for justice. I will personally seek you out in heaven and give you a big handshake.

 

[Faith77]

Oops, this thread is only a few months old.

 

[gratefulgrace]

Still a very appreciated post Faith77

 

[Tamara224]

Still a very appreciated post Faith77

Agreed.

 

[nephilimiyr]

Ephesians 5:25, Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her...

5:28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

There is never any justification for a husband to ever hit, injure, or verbally abuse his wife, period. Any man found to be physically injurying his wife needs to be counseled and with punishment. The type of punishments can vary but sweeping it under the rug, justifying the crime, or forgiving and forgetting is not an option.

If this had happend in my church, if the man was convicted of the crime of wife beating, spent time in jail, and soon after being released my church promoted him as the worship leader I would think my pastor had lost his mind...And I would more or less tell him that. No, he needed to be counseled, he needed to spend time sorting things out in his mind and spirit before he could ever be in a position of leadership. He needs to be out of any leadership position for at least one year minimum, IMHO.