Saddleback Church supports wife batterers

[gratefulgrace]

Unfortunately many Churches act out of expediency and "ministry" need with little regard to the Spirits call. I definitely would expect such leadership in worship must be doomed to failure. for if we do not love our brother/wife whome we have seen how can we love Him who we have not seen. paraphrase of
1Jo 4:20If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?
GG

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Ephesians 5:25, Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her...

5:28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.

There is never any justification for a husband to ever hit, injure, or verbally abuse his wife, period. Any man found to be physically injurying his wife needs to be counseled and with punishment. The type of punishments can vary but sweeping it under the rug, justifying the crime, or forgiving and forgetting is not an option.

If this had happend in my church, if the man was convicted of the crime of wife beating, spent time in jail, and soon after being released my church promoted him as the worship leader I would think my pastor had lost his mind...And I would more or less tell him that. No, he needed to be counseled, he needed to spend time sorting things out in his mind and spirit before he could ever be in a position of leadership. He needs to be out of any leadership position for at least one year minimum, IMHO.

I tend to agree with that......good post bro

 

[K2K]

There are lots of reasons for promoting someone. Reading between the lines of the story , this man is skilled in music and has experience at Life Church. Musical skill and experience are two good reasons to put someone in a position to minister in the area of music.

"There are lots of reasons for promoting someone."

That is absolutely right - there are lots of reasons churches have for promoting, placing, and choosing who serves where, and who is rejected.

That does seem to be the issue in the story.

But should there be lots of reasons or only one reason?

If we are following the voice of the Lord, then the only reason we should have for promoting, placing, or rejecting, is because the Lord told us!!

If I am thinking otherwise then I am going against the basic Christian belief that God is with us and abides in us, though I might not be willing to admit that to myself.

Which brings us back to the purpuse driven life consept. Are we trying to live by our purpose for our life or His purpose for our life?

When I looked at the book "The Purpose Driven Life" it seem to be saying to decided for yourself what ways that you might be able to serve God and take a proactive approach. Is that what got Noah to build the Arc?

We need to listen to the Lord and do what He asks. That is what got Noah to build the Arc.

We should not then be promoting anyone in our church because they are a well qualified musician or any other reason, but only because the Lord tells us to.

We Christians lean on our own understanding of the Bible so much, and lean on our relationship with the Lord so little that we don't even see that it is not the same thing.

Then you wind up with an embarassing situation where the wife beatter is not reproved by the pastor and congregation according to what the Lord said in the Scriptures (Mat 18:15)

Still these things happen. We all tend to lean on our understanding more than the Lord's. The Lord forgives us and keeps working on us. Saddleback church may need forgiveness on our part, and the Lord is still Lord of lords, and King of kings. He can make it all work out for good.

Will Saddleback church continue to ignore issues like that? I doubt it.

Will the man publicly exposed continue to think he can abuse people and get away with it? Hopefully not. He certainly should have learned some leason.

And in Orange County there are many many wonderful Christian churches for the lady to go to. Still it is not about going to those churches, but rather about hearing from the Lord, whom those churches are supposed to be listening to, yourself that is truly needed.

So hopefully this issue was brought up for the purpose of bring people closer to God and not to accuse Saddleback church, or the convicted wife beater. Because bring people (and mostly ourselves) closer to the Lord is the purpose we should have in our life.

 

[visionary]

What is a good enough reason for divorce? Well, according to Rick Warren’s Saddleback church, divorce is only permitted in cases of adultery or abandonment—as these are the only cases permitted in the Bible—and never for abuse.

Biblical Battered Wife Syndrome: Christian Women and Domestic Violence | Religion Dispatches

 

[K2K]

What is a good enough reason for divorce? Well, according to Rick Warren’s Saddleback church, divorce is only permitted in cases of adultery or abandonment—as these are the only cases permitted in the Bible—and never for abuse.

Biblical Battered Wife Syndrome: Christian Women and Domestic Violence | Religion Dispatches

Interesting post and site reference.

When we are trying to live by the law instead of by the voice of the Lord, then alsorts of things can go wrong. The correct interpretion of the Scriptures is from the Holy Spirit. In the same way the correct way to live your life is from the Holy Spirit also. If your purpose driven life is not based upon hearing daily instructions from the Lord, it's not going to come out right.

Jesus said that God permitted divorce because of our hard hearts. Does a hard heart only show up as adultery or abandonment? And what of a husband that beats his wife? Does that sound like someone with a soft heart?

The Lord once told me that husbands and wives should not hit each other with anything harder than the words "I love you". He had me give that word to a married couple very close to me. The wife belittled and put down her husband consantly and the husband would finially get so mad that He would strike the wife. Words hurt too.

From what I heard from Him, He was going to work a little longer with that couple, but He was not going to let in continue too long without stepping in and letting the law take it's course.

It sounds to me like He did let the law did take it's course in the case mentioned in the beginning of this thread. Now where does that leave the church that lives by the law instead of by His voice?

 

[Tenebrae]

A couple of instances, I recall when a friend of mine left her abusive husband, being told by a lovely christian lady that she was in sin not staying in that marriage, I remember it vividly, because I was so freaking gob smacked and my friend stood on my foot, and hissed at me not to make a scene.

Another friend whose husband was hitting her, she went to her church for guidance and was told that she needed to submit to her husband completely and totally, and she wouldnt get hit, and was given a book on how wives should submit to their husbands

I get the theology on wives submitting to their husbands and husbands loving their wives like Christ loved the church, I think unfortunately it becomes a vehicle for abusive people to have power over others alot of the time, and rather than take steps to address the problems of domestic abuse, the church would much rather stick its head in the sand.

If the bible is true, these people who failed to act in light of domestic abuse, or sent abuse victims back to their abusers to be abused again will one day have to stand before God and be accountable for their actions, not something I would want to do

 

[SFerber]

much to my surprise, I did a google search on my name and found this thread. Thanks to each person who put time and thought to the keyboard to discuss this. It is an interesting read most certainly. So many different questions you have and some of you have come to proper conclusions. The question remains, what if anything will be the proper (in the eyes of God) response of the church. Specifically Saddleback and those who were intimately involved in this catastrophe. It is still a question awaiting an answer. I believe in my heart strongly that there will one day be redemption. Pastor Rick was quick to say, GOD WILL NOT WASTE A HURT. This is a stain on the church, but that does not mean it will go as a wasted wound. There is still time to heal. Again, thank each of you who took the time to read and learn something that none of us as believers want to acknowledge happens even amongst the most faithful of saints.

 

[Alithis]

long thread already.. haven't read it all so.. has the Op story been verified true or are we discussing hear-say & gossip designed to stir up disagreements resulting in strife?

 

[Hetta]

long thread already.. haven't read it all so.. has the Op story been verified true or are we discussing hear-say & gossip designed to stir up disagreements resulting in strife?

The person who posted before you is the woman who was the abused wife. You could ask her whether she lied or not.

 

[Alithis]

much to my surprise, I did a google search on my name and found this thread. Thanks to each person who put time and thought to the keyboard to discuss this. It is an interesting read most certainly. So many different questions you have and some of you have come to proper conclusions. The question remains, what if anything will be the proper (in the eyes of God) response of the church. Specifically Saddleback and those who were intimately involved in this catastrophe. It is still a question awaiting an answer. I believe in my heart strongly that there will one day be redemption. Pastor Rick was quick to say, GOD WILL NOT WASTE A HURT. This is a stain on the church, but that does not mean it will go as a wasted wound. There is still time to heal. Again, thank each of you who took the time to read and learn something that none of us as believers want to acknowledge happens even amongst the most faithful of saints.

its a stain on every congregation every time divorce is encouraged over forgiveness and reconciliation(in God) .(its not a stain divorce happens ,but that it is soo quickly encouraged )
yes,i'm throwing in an outrageous statement when presented with no context ..but if the lord Jesus promoted his "personal rights"...(a united nations world spirit based philosophy) over love mercy and forgiveness ..not a single one of us would now be saved .
im not an advocate of "Human rights" but of the right of every created god breathed spirit of mankind to hear the Gospel ,know Jesus and lay down their life in the pursuit of every damned soul being saved. ie take up their cross ...

 

[Alithis]

The person who posted before you is the woman who was the abused wife. You could ask her whether she lied or not.

you say that as if i had an assumption she did... i did no,t nor could i know as i stated..i had not read the entire thread.

 

[Hetta]

its a stain on every congregation every time divorce is encouraged over forgiveness and reconciliation(in God) .
yes,i'm throwing in an outrageous statement when presented with no context ..but if the lord Jesus promoted his "personal rights"...(a united nations world spirit based philosophy) over love mercy and forgiveness ..not a single one of us would now be saved .
im not an advocate of "Human rights" but of the right of every created god breathed spirit of mankind to hear the Gospel ,know Jesus and lay down their life in the pursuit of every damned soul being saved. ie take up their cross ...

Are you saying she should have stayed and been abused?

 

[freezerman2000]

much to my surprise, I did a google search on my name and found this thread. Thanks to each person who put time and thought to the keyboard to discuss this. It is an interesting read most certainly. So many different questions you have and some of you have come to proper conclusions. The question remains, what if anything will be the proper (in the eyes of God) response of the church. Specifically Saddleback and those who were intimately involved in this catastrophe. It is still a question awaiting an answer. I believe in my heart strongly that there will one day be redemption. Pastor Rick was quick to say, GOD WILL NOT WASTE A HURT. This is a stain on the church, but that does not mean it will go as a wasted wound. There is still time to heal. Again, thank each of you who took the time to read and learn something that none of us as believers want to acknowledge happens even amongst the most faithful of saints.

I wish you could have joined us under happier circumstances..
No one deserves to be battered.
There are many wonderful ministries here that can help you heal..one is for the battered.
I wish to extend to you a heart felt and warm..

Welcome to CF!!
We hope your stay with us will be a true blessing to you!

 

[Alithis]

Are you saying she should have stayed and been abused?

it is too sensitive a topic ,too prone to emotional response to really discuss here.
there is a principle of faith that is overlooked far too often ..being belief in God and his ableness to work in our life good from every situation.

look at it from say..the aspect of foxes book of martyrs.. read their testimony of christ..their willingness to be ,not only beaten ,but put to death with false accusation.

then exchange their corrupt official who has physical power over them ,their cruel guard and tormentor their execution ..their prison bars..they could not cry ,,iv had enough im out of here... and when given opportunity to deny faith and be free,they chose death so as not to discredit the Gospel.
And contrast it to emotional bars where the only thing confining a person is the choice to forgive those that sin against us and have faith that God is able to change the heart of any person or deal with them as he sees fit.. but that is the path of faith,cost,the cross...the churches have opted for worldly methods... with no spiritual power to bind the spirits of violence and rage because they walk in unbelief and trust the worlds way over God with whom nothing is impossible ..yet evidence is blatant..the worlds way of dealing with it has not ceased to see exponential increase in domestic violence

it all tells me there is a walk in faith where our desire to know...from Godly love..even our captive and tormentor ,saved and transformed by the power wrought through the blood of christ Jesus.. a faith perfected in such love that we will endure ANYTHING to see salvation worked in the most horrendous soul .A faith we've not known in our age a faith that cries out .."the cross or nothing"
but this contemporary christianity no longer believes with all their heart that God is able... so i observe,when the going gets tough ,when the demons rage loud and violent.. we of this western church...run for the worlds embrace...

i speak with prophetic mannerism in my presentation so i come across pointed ,direct ,black and white.. some have trouble seeing past that to the essence of what im saying .which is founded in Godly love.A benevolence so great,so perfect it endures any suffering and counts it a joy to do so, to bring about
the realization of the salvation of God in anothers life ..without which, only an incomprehensible horror eternally awaits them.

 

[SFerber]

The sad fact is the issue happened one time with my husband and I went to the church for them to help us...I was not expecting what I got from them. I was a core member, and a leader in the church but I was rapidly ostracized, my husband and I were in a very damaged place and we needed the Spirit of God to rescue us. Instead there were cover ups, lies, and a whole lot of eyes closing, fingers in ears and people la la la'ing. God used this to expose the teaching that a woman or man was not allowed to divorce in the instance of abuse. The church has since gone back to revisit this and clarify the teaching. I did not want the church to punish him, I wanted them to help us. What they have never done is acknowledge their wrong doing in the matter. This is something that one day will happen. I trust God to know that truth will be shouted from the mountain top. I was what one would call a "whistle blower" but unlike the law, in church governance such as Saddleback there is no over site committee. One day, Rick Warren and I will be knee to knee and this will be resolved, and honoring to God.

 

[murjahel]

i speak with prophetic license in my presentation so i come across pointed ,direct ,black and white.. .

None of us are permitted to 'speak with prophetic license'... a prophetic word paraphrased into counseling language is still a prophetic word...

God loves to speak to each of us personally... the prophetic word is not given to give direction to others... The rules against prophetic messages being given is given for a reason... we would have some sending novices to India to be a missionary if those were allowed...

Your opinion is allowed... Scriptural discussion is allowed... but we do not have some claiming to be giving a 'word', a direction, straight from God... To put God's name to it, claiming God is speaking through you is what you call 'prophetic license'... This is far too serious a matter to have that...

 

[Alithis]

None of us are permitted to 'speak with prophetic license'... a prophetic word paraphrased into counseling language is still a prophetic word...

God loves to speak to each of us personally... the prophetic word is not given to give direction to others... The rules against prophetic messages being given is given for a reason... we would have some sending novices to India to be a missionary if those were allowed...

Your opinion is allowed... Scriptural discussion is allowed... but we do not have some claiming to be giving a 'word', a direction, straight from God... To put God's name to it, claiming God is speaking through you is what you call 'prophetic license'... This is far too serious a matter to have that...

way to over read my meaning...never said any such thing.

here is prophetic license, "the lord Jesus is soon returning in glory.. "
that is not "a directive word" but an agreement with what is already written. thus prophetic without being "a prophecy in itself"
none of what i said is directive but in agreement with what is already written .. so not in itself a declarative foretelling nor directive,nor intended to be.
when i use the term "prophetic license" im referring to the prophetic nature which is to view things in life in an extreme black & white ,right & wrong manner... the prophetic character is not often lent to shades of grey.

 

[Alithis]

The sad fact is the issue happened one time with my husband and I went to the church for them to help us...I was not expecting what I got from them. I was a core member, and a leader in the church but I was rapidly ostracized, my husband and I were in a very damaged place and we needed the Spirit of God to rescue us. Instead there were cover ups, lies, and a whole lot of eyes closing, fingers in ears and people la la la'ing. God used this to expose the teaching that a woman or man was not allowed to divorce in the instance of abuse. The church has since gone back to revisit this and clarify the teaching. I did not want the church to punish him, I wanted them to help us. What they have never done is acknowledge their wrong doing in the matter. This is something that one day will happen. I trust God to know that truth will be shouted from the mountain top. I was what one would call a "whistle blower" but unlike the law, in church governance such as Saddleback there is no over site committee. One day, Rick Warren and I will be knee to knee and this will be resolved, and honoring to God.

iv experienced the opposite scenario where the church assumed full guilt without facts ,never asked for facts but gathered around my wife telling her they would support her should she choose to divorce me.. the attitude towards men is often to assume absolute irredeemable guilt..
I had no intent to divorce and was set to hold through it all.. they never inquired to know that our deeply frustrated (though not physically violent)
was steeped with curse... my sweet exterior worship on a sunday wife was not adverse in the week to telling her husband to <insert expletive > and die .
point is ,churches have to often forgotten (via unbelief) that our response must always be to seek first the reestablishment of the governance of the Holy Spirit in peoples lives ,to seek forgiveness,reconciliation and restoration.

 

[murjahel]

way to over read my meaning...never said any such thing.

here is prophetic license, "the lord Jesus is soon returning in glory.. "
that is not "a directive word" but an agreement with what is already written. thus prophetic without being "a prophecy in itself"
none of what i said is directive but in agreement with what is already written .. so not in itself a declarative foretelling nor directive,nor intended to be.
when i use the term "prophetic license" im referring to the prophetic nature which is to view things in life in an extreme black & white ,right & wrong manner... the prophetic character is not often lent to shades of grey.

the 'terminology' of 'prophetic license' means that God has revealed it to one, and they speak with the authority of God on a matter....

your explanation of it, sounds like you are saying the written Word of God is clear and therefore one must agree with your interpretation of such as authoritative... one may have a view of what the Scripture says on the matter in contrast to yours...

neither explanation of 'prophetic license' is something that one can claim here...

to say that God revealed prophetically in your mind, or in the written Word, that this person must take the abuse from the abusive husband to be in God's will ... is directive to her unique situation...

 

[Jesse2014]

Wow. I was going to respond. But this looks like it was written three years ago. Well, it's still sounds aweful.