Sad, very sad, but front page news, wow...

[Jonathan Walkerin]

Miracles don’t prove which faith is the true one. After all, Christ said something about “not even if a man rises from the dead would you believe”.

Personally I would be much more impressed by some domination raising dead people than one having a painting with some moisture on it......

 

[ArmyMatt]

Let me guess...there are no actual links to any kind of public test results from these laboratories ?

You would think that Church would be eager to test these miracles to prove they are the one true faith ...but for some reason they seem to be disinclined to do so ?

links? I dunno. I don't know of any Soviet era miracle databases.

but you can see them for yourself. we have nothing to hide.

 

[truefiction1]

That is nice. Any particular reason nobody takes this to laboratory settings with scientific recording and analyzing equipment thus making it only religion in the world with certified miracle happening and getting all those new converts for God ?

It has been analyzed scientifically, actually. But when it comes to miracles, they can always be denied on the basis of there being some rational explanation. Nothing ever has to be attributed to God: not even if a person were to be dead for several days and then raised. The skeptic would simply deny that such person had ever really died in the first place, or that the person who was supposedly risen is in fact a different person than the one who was dead. There's no such thing as indisputable proof where miracles are concerned. If there was, then the Pharisees who questioned the man born blind who had been given eyes by Christ would have repented and believed in Christ, and the would have followed Him rather than crucifying Him. Nobody can prove a miracle. You either have faith or you don't -- eyes to see and ears to hear, or not. Belief, or unbelief, come from within our hearts. Our minds merely interpret what we experience in light of Who is in our hearts.

We have anointed people with medically incurable, terminal illnesses with this holy myrrh that streams miraculously from certain of these icons, and prayed, and their diseases have simply vanished without a trace, and with no medical explanation offered. We tell people about this, yet they can neither understand nor remember what they've heard. There is a veil over their eyes so that they cannot see. Thus, I'm sorry to say, they remain un-phased by such miracles and they don't convert to belief in Christ.

And this is the real reason that the Church doesn't bother with scientific data, records, or the like. It is because the miracles will be either denied or ignored by skeptics even if there are piles and stacks of medical evidence. Where there is a heart that loves sin, there is going to be a mind attached to that heart that is eager to rationalize away any possible evidence of the presence of God. We know and understand this all too well.

It's as Blaise Pascal once wrote: "In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't."

 

[AMM]

Personally I would be much more impressed by some domination raising dead people than one having a painting with some moisture on it......

That’s why I was impressed with Orthodoxy. Christ rose from the dead, and here is his body, manifested at the Eucharistic table each and every Sunday.

We happen to also have “paintings with some moisture” but that’s quite secondary to the miracles of the Eucharist, of faith and repentance, of Baptism.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

We have anointed people with medically incurable, terminal illnesses with this holy myrrh that streams miraculously from certain of these icons, and prayed, and their diseases have simply vanished without a trace, and with no medical explanation offered.

Think these fall to the same category as any other form of faith healing. It is shown to work on everything now and then that have been shown to disappear by themselves either through plasebo or by the simply bodies own healing mechanism.

Anything that should be impossible for body to repair like lost limbs are funnily enough also out of the reach of myrrh and prayers. Or have you heard lots of modern stories of people regaining theirs lost hand or leg when myrrh was applied to stump ?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Think these fall to the same category as any other form of faith healing. It is shown to work on everything now and then that have been shown to disappear by themselves either through plasebo or by the simply bodies own healing mechanism.

Anything that should be impossible for body to repair like lost limbs are funnily enough also out of the reach of myrrh and prayers. Or have you heard lots of modern stories of people regaining theirs lost hand or leg when myrrh was applied to stump ?

my own mother-in-law had terrible scar tissue in her wrists that was causing her to be in incredible pain. she was anointed by myrrh from the Hawaiian Iveron icon.

her pain didn't just go away, the scar tissue itself was completely gone.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

my own mother-in-law had terrible scar tissue in her wrists that was causing her to be in incredible pain. she was anointed by myrrh from the Hawaiian Iveron icon.

Any reason they are not doing amputees ? Also body can heal scar tissue to certain extent but if the effect was immediate then certainly let us give it a miracle status and direct all the burn patients there. Should be a great relief to regular hospitals nearby.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Any reason they are not doing amputees ? Also body can heal scar tissue to certain extent but if the effect was immediate then certainly let us give it a miracle status and direct all the burn patients there. Should be a great relief to regular hospitals nearby.

for one, who said amputees aren't healed? off the top of my head I can't think of any recently, but I do know they have happened throughout history.

for two, it was almost instant. her wrist completely healed within a day or two.

for three, miracles aren't magic. healings happen as God wills. be that as it may, I know St Paraskeve Orthodox Church in Greenlawn, NY has miraculous water that they do hand out to local medical communities which has healed people.

seriously, you write your skeptical comments like we have not heard this before.

 

[Not David]

@Jonathan Walkerin Aren't you Catholic? Don't you believe in miracles at all?

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Most of them were printed icons, too! (I'm just getting it out of the way early! )

sure, but there are plenty of legit ones as well.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Most of them were printed icons, too! (I'm just getting it out of the way early! )

indeed they are

 

[ArseniusTheSilent]

I'm going to say something controversial, which may get me in trouble, but I think it needs to be said.

The Greek community in the United States is one of the wealthiest communities in the country, if not the world. These families came to the U.S. with nothing and worked their way up from poverty, becoming some of the most successful business owners in the country. The Greek Church was there to lend them a helping hand as they acclimated to a new country and culture. It gave them faith and family. It gave them a home away from home.

Now fast forward. There are over 20 Greek American billionaires in this country, with a total net worth of $46.88 billion dollars. Yet, they provide little to nothing to the church that gave them and their families so much. Instead of helping parishes like this one (or their church as a whole, which is in a financial crisis) they instead throw lavish parties, buy expensive luxuries, and purchase NBA and NFL teams. When the almost certainly Iconoclastic "Universal Life Church" that bought this property comes with their sledgehammers to desecrate the icon of the weeping Theotokos, these people who had the power to make a difference will be hanging out on the links with their buddies as their fellow Greek Orthodox brethren watch their home get destroyed. It honestly makes me ill.

This issue definitely lends credence to what is written in Matthew 19:24.

We are called to take up our own cross and follow Christ, not to judge others for how they have done (or failed to do) the same. What have I done to help my fellow Orthodox Christian around me? I fall woefully short of following Christ's commandments.

To love my brother as myself is not to look at what he or she possesses and to pass judgment on what they do with it. How can you or I help communities like this (which exist throughout this country and throughout the world) and to bring light into the world?

Let me guess...there are no actual links to any kind of public test results from these laboratories ?

You would think that Church would be eager to test these miracles to prove they are the one true faith ...but for some reason they seem to be disinclined to do so ?

How is science going to prove or disprove my faith? This is a tool of heretics (for lack of a better word choice) and the Evil One (ultimately) imho.

 

[godIZluv88]

I've always had a belief in miracles. I was in a place where I doubted....hard. The Hawaiian Iveron icon visited my city a couple of weeks ago. The moment that the icon was taken out of the car, I could sense her presence and all I could do was prostrate as she moved to the insides of the church. I was one of those people who were early to the service. I went up to the icon to venerate it and all I could do was sob each time I bowed down. These tears were not of my own doing. It was a deep sorrow of grace from Mary. I read somewhere of the same kind of icon had been had appeared mysteriously on Mt.Athos for these monks. These monks sobbed as well. It had been said that despite how sinful they all were, she accepted them all as their sons. The sobbing came from the feeling of a mother's intense love for me at the moment. No one that was there at that event had done what I had done and there would have been at least 200 people in that small church. I pray that miracles like these give people more faith as it had for me.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

seriously, you write your skeptical comments like we have not heard this before.

Not like we have not heard of faith healing before either, but even when going through these threads there is plenty of sickness around and people have problems the comments are usually trust in God, but if it feels serious go to your doctor......

miracles aren't magic. healings happen as God wills. be that as it may, I know St Paraskeve Orthodox Church in Greenlawn, NY has miraculous water that they do hand out to local medical communities which has healed people.

So basically people get water they believe has healing powers and some get better and some do not.

How is this different from any placebo medicine ?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Not like we have not heard of faith healing before either, but even when going through these threads there is plenty of sickness around and people have problems the comments are usually trust in God, but if it feels serious go to your doctor......

except we're not talking about faith healing.

 

[ArmyMatt]

How is this different from any placebo medicine ?

because I dunno any placebo medicine that can heal scar tissue inside the wrist, by being applied on top of the wrist one time, and the healing taking place over the course of a day or two.

unless you actually have some evidence to the contrary...

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

[

unless you actually have some evidence to the contrary...

Unfortunately I have no evidence for the wrist scar healing miracle either so this is kind of moot point.

Think of it this way. Would you believe if some scientologist made the same claim but instead of Orthodox relic he would have used supermegarzepifier to get the same result ?

 

[ArmyMatt]

[


Unfortunately I have no evidence for the wrist scar healing miracle either so this is kind of moot point.

Think of it this way. Would you believe if some scientologist made the same claim but instead of Orthodox relic he would have used supermegarzepifier to get the same result ?

I didn't mean for my mother-in-law's wrist, I meant for Orthodox healings.

it depends, if the Scientologist had a 2000 consistent witness that the supermegarzepifier could do it, so much so that even non-believers sought its use, I would certainly consider it. especially before just writing it off.

 

[Jonathan Walkerin]

it depends, if the Scientologist had a 2000 consistent witness that the supermegarzepifier could do it, so much so that even non-believers sought its use, I would certainly consider it. especially before just writing it off.

I am sure scientology can provide 2000 consistent witness for any of their money grabbing pseudo religious rites. They are higly organized and Cruise is actually a good actor.

I still would not consider them anything other than fakes, but they are probably happy that someone would. That is how they make their money after all.

 

[prodromos]

I am sure scientology can provide 2000 consistent witness for any of their money grabbing pseudo religious rites. They are higly organized and Cruise is actually a good actor.

I still would not consider them anything other than fakes, but they are probably happy that someone would. That is how they make their money after all.

We don't make any money from people being healed.