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Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by FineLinen, Sep 10, 2019.

  1. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    The job is to love one another.
     
  2. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    That God will have all mankind be saved....

    Here is a great thread on the GT board "god loves everyone" and the difference between the word "wills" and "desires".

    God loves everyone?
    We hear much today about evangelizing and saving the world in one generation. The preachers tell us this mission must be accomplished before Christ can return, and it must be done in this generation. We hear of glorious revival at home and abroad, of fresh missionary efforts in various directions, of great Crusades attended by tens and sometimes hundreds of thousands, of radio and television beamed by satellite to all the nations of earth, and of large sums being devoted to these endeavors: and we get the idea that adequate efforts are being made for the evangelization of the nations of the earth. It is estimated today that the world's population is over seven billion, and it is a fact that considerably more than one-half - nearly two-thirds - are still TOTALLY HEATHEN, and the remainder are mostly either followers of Mohammed or members of those great apostate Churches whose religion is practically a Christianized idolatry, and who can scarcely be said to hold or teach the Gospel of Christ.

    What is, and is to be, their condition? Did God make no provision for these, whose condition and circumstances He must have foreseen? Or did He, from the foundation of the world, make a wretched and merciless provision for their hopeless, eternal torment, as many of His children claim? Can you really believe that is the plan by which the all-wise, all-merciful, loving God is working out His purpose here on earth? WHAT IS THE TRUTH?

    Paul, in I Tim. 2:1-6, gives the answer! "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN ... for this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who WILL HAVE A-L-L M-E-N TO BE SAVED, and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time."
    This text is one of rare beauty. It is indeed like a precious diamond, the effulgence of whose radiance dazzles the mind. It is a drop of pure distilled essence, whose fragrance fills the rooms of the heart. It is a joy forevermore and a challenge to everyone who reads it with an understanding heart. It should be engraved upon the heart of every saint of God. There is so much depth to that text that I am afraid that we often do not even perceive it. It is like a beautiful sky of deep rich blue and one cannot even begin to grasp the vast depth above us. So it is with this passage!
    King James Bible
    Who will have
    all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
    Douay-Rheims Bible
    Who will have
    all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
    Young's Literal Translation
    who doth will
    all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;

    Greek and Hebrew Reader Online

    4 ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι καὶ εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν.

    G2309 (NKJV)
    G2309 θέλω (thelō), occurs 213 times in 201 verses

    2309. thelo thel'-o or ethelo eth-el'-o, in certain tenses theleo thel-eh'-o, and etheleo eth-el-eh'-o, which are otherwise obsolete apparently strengthened from the alternate form of 138;
    to determine (as an active option from subjective impulse; whereas 1014 properly denotes rather a passive acquiescence in objective considerations), i.e. choose or prefer (literally or figuratively); by implication, to wish, i.e. be inclined to (sometimes adverbially, gladly); impersonally for the future tense, to be about to; by Hebraism, to delight in:--desire, be disposed (forward), intend, list, love, mean, please, have rather, (be) will (have, -ling, - ling(-ly)).
    ===================
    1 Timothy 2:4 Commentaries biblehub

    Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
    4. who will have] The exact rendering is that of R.V. who willeth that all men should he saved—not the stronger word bouletai, ‘desireth,’ with a definite purpose. Chrysostom’s comment is “if He willed to save all, do thou will it also; and if thou willest, pray for it”: and Theod. Mops, in the Latin translation “evidens est quoniam omnes vult salvari, quia et omnes tuetur, quia est omnium Dominus.”
    Thus the Greek fathers accepted St Paul’s words in their prima facie sense.

    The Latin fathers seek to guard their application; and St Augustine actually says “by ‘all’ understand ‘all the predestined,’ because men of all sorts are among them.” The phrase is not “willeth to save all,” which would have been very near to universalism; but there is implied “the human acceptance of offered salvation on which even God’s predestination is contingent” Alford.
    be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth] Notice the order of the words; salvation is according to the N. T. usage, past, present and future.
    ============
    Bengel's Gnomen
    1 Timothy 2:4. Πάντας) all, not merely a part, much less a very small part; 1 Timothy 2:3, note.—ἀνθρώπους, men) lost in themselves.—θέλει, [‘wills’] wishes) in serious earnestness of wish: ibid.—σωθῆναι, to be saved) This is treated of, at 1 Timothy 2:5-6.—Καὶ εἰς, and unto) This is treated of, at 1 Timothy 2:6-7.—ἀληθείας) of saving truth.—ἐλθεῖν, to come) They are not forced.
    =====================
    Pulpit Commentary
    Verse 4. - Willeth that all men should be saved for will have all men to be saved, A.V.; come to for to come unto, A.V. All men, etc.; to show that it is in accordance with God's will to pray for "all men" (ver. 1). (For the doctrinal statement, comp. ver. 6; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 3:9, etc.)
    ==========
    Vincent's Word Studies
    Who will have all men to be saved
    (ὃς πάντας ἀνθρώπους θέλει σωθῆναι)
    Lit, who willeth all men, etc. As who, or seeing that he, giving the ground of the previous statement. Prayer to God for all is acceptable to him, because he wills the salvation of all. Θέλει willeth, marking a determinate purpose.

    Come to the knowledge of the truth (εἰς ἐπίγνωσιν ἀληθείας ἐλθεῖν)

    The phrase only here and 2 Timothy 3:7. Ἑπίγνωσις is a favorite Pauline word. See on Romans 3:20; see on Colossians 1:9; see on 1 Timothy 2:4; see on 1 Timothy 4:3. It signifies advanced or full knowledge. The difference between the simple γνῶσις and the compound word is illustrated in Romans 1:21, Romans 1:28, and 1 Corinthians 13:12. In N.T. always of the knowledge of things ethical or divine, and never ascribed to God. For ἀλήθεια truth, see on sound doctrine, 1 Timothy 1:10. It appears 14 times in the Pastorals, and always without a defining genitive. So, often in Paul, but several times with a defining genitive, as truth of God, of Christ, of the gospel.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  3. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear BNR: The rest of the "statement" flows from the fact>>>

    You did not choose Me, I chose you
     
  4. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    :scratch:
     
  5. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    Choosing for appointment and living a life that bears fruit is a very fine line indeed. Sophia wisdom seems to be the governing factor for those who are under it’s breathing (soul-life given) For instance in the promotion of hospitals, abolishing slavery and that sort of thing, fruit that will remain. A renewing of the mind to Christ and His ways for His people. The fire baptism that occurred for service seems to be for His speficif workings to get His work done for Himself rather than a general benefit for people of the world.
     
  6. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Would you care to elaborate on Sophia wisdom?
     
  7. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    What about Luke 12:10? Will they be forgiven or will they enter heaven with unforgiven sin?
     
  8. Lazarus Short

    Lazarus Short Well-Known Member

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    I just LOVE that, brother!
     
  9. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    “Sophia” in ancient Greek translates to “wisdom,” and from this we derive the words “philosophy” and “sophisticated.” The Hebrew the word for wisdom, חָכְמָה or chokmah, is also a feminine noun. ... It is Sophia's close relationship to God,
     
  10. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    And yet in verse 4 He tells them “Abide in Me for without Me you can do nothing” Sounds like they have a choice to make here.
     
  11. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Reminds me of Romans 6:16 :)
     
  12. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    It's Gnostic.

    Gnosticism teaches that the living God is evil.
     
  13. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    No it’s not.
     
  14. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus PESKY DEVIL! GIT! l SAID GIT! Supporter

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    Hello brinny........Love the Avatar....:)

    [​IMG]

    Here is an interesting site if you and/or others are interested:

    Chapter 4 - Universal Reconciliation Scriptures – Gods Plan for All

    Luke 23:34
    Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do”.

    This is Jesus’s last prayer and the most important request to Father God just before He died on the cross for the sins of the whole world. Jesus asked His Father to forgive His very murderers. Do you think that Father God will not grant Jesus’s request to forgive all those who played a part in crucifying Him? If Jesus’s murderers can be forgiven then everybody else, including Hitler, can be forgiven.

    There is no such thing as an unforgivable sin; ‘blasphemy against the Holy Spirit’ remains unforgiven in this age and the next age only, but not forever. All unbelievers will be forgiven during the Great White Throne Judgement Age, as we explain in detail in Chapter 12.

    Jesus Christ is the Saviour of the whole world

    John 4:42
    Then they said to the woman, “Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard Him and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world (kosmos).
    1 John 4:14
    And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world (kosmos).

    Yes, Christ is indeed the Saviour of the world. How can He be the Saviour of the world and yet, at the same time, not save the whole world?

    1 Timothy 4:9-11
    9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance. 10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 These things command and teach.

    Notice that it is a command from God to teach the truth that God is the Saviour of all men.
    Once again, we ask the question, ‘How can God be the Saviour of all men and yet not save them all?’


    Luke 19:9-10
    9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, because he also is a son of Abraham; 10 for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost.”

    How many are lost? All people are born lost with a sinful fallen Adamic nature. The Bible says that there is not one righteous, no, not even one (Romans 3:10). Jesus Christ will save all people without a single exception, as man’s fallen rebellious will cannot frustrate God’s sovereign will to save all of the lost.

    John 12:32-33 (NIV)
    32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will
    draw all men to myself. 33 He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

    Jesus Christ was lifted up on the cross to die for the sins of the whole world. The cross of Jesus Christ has unlimited power to draw all to Jesus. Ultimately, in God’s time and His order, which extends beyond this age, all will be drawn to Christ because of the finished work of the cross for the salvation and reconciliation of all, without a single exception.

    Please note that in the Greek Manuscripts, verse 32 above simply says: ‘But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to myself’. This means that all fallen men and all fallen angels will be reconciled to God through the work of the cross, as stated in Colossians 1:15-20.
     
  15. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Yes. It is.
     
  16. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Hahahaaa glad you like the avatar LLOJ :D
     
  17. ~Zao~

    ~Zao~ Great is Thy Faithfulness Supporter

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    What part of that teaches that God is evil?
     
  18. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    Dear Maria: There are many dimensions in Fathers House, or places of abode. All of us are on different stages of a journey whose beginning and ending is Him. No two unions with Him are the same, all in various hues of communion with the Living One.

    Our God does not express His mere desire towards His creation, the language is much stronger>>>He wills/thelo all mankind to be saved and come to the Source of truth, Him.

    Much thanks for your post.

    "Especially" does not mean "only"
     
  19. brinny

    brinny everlovin' shiner of light in dark places Supporter

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    Gnosticism does. God is referred to as The Demiurge.

    It also teaches that Sophia drank milk from God's breast, etc.
     
  20. FineLinen

    FineLinen Senior Veteran Supporter

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    My dear brother, you have arrived just in the nick of time. I think your flying vehicle is fueled by Spirit and Zao. Much thanks for your timely post. This will likely be a shock, but F.L. cannot add anything. May His rich blessing continue with you and yours in the realm of exceedingly above!
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
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