Sad News To Report

[Shrewd Manager]

It doesn't matter what I see, or understand..it matters what God says about it.

Jesus' parables illustrate truths, we just follow where they lead.

 

[mkgal1]

If I be lifted up, I will draw ALL MEN unto Me ...

ISTM this phrase is being used here to refer to humanity praising Him (their good deeds of speaking of their loyalty to Him).

I've understood this to be a reference to Jesus being lifted up on the cross.

Christianity/ Jesus / Is Jesus God? / Old Testament Prophecies / Jesus Is Like the Serpent Moses Lifted Up?
Jesus Is Like the Serpent Moses Lifted Up?
Stephen Davey


And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life. [John 3:14-15]

These verses refer us back to one of the most unique stories in the Old Testament. In the book of Numbers, we find the Israelites in rebellion against God. God sent a plague of deadly serpents, called fiery serpents, simply because fire, or a fever, that ultimately led to death, was the predominate result of their bite.

The people cried out for mercy and God instructed Moses to make a brass serpent, put it on a pole, and hold it up in the midst of the camp. Those who looked up at the serpent were healed. It was as simple as that.

 

[A_Thinker]

Did it? I guess you may be thinking of the Albegensian crusade (looking at the link you gave). But persecutions and killing for religious motives goes back much further than that and it's not confined to Christians. The Jews of Paul's day were keen to persecute. Christians in later centuries persecuted Jews. Pagans persecuted Jews in ancient times, and pagans persecuted other pagans too. So what happened in the past, in reformation days and in earlier and later times exemplifies the dangers that attach to treating human interpretations as if they were divine truth.

Just countering the idea that the publishing of the scriptures somehow inspired the heresy hunts ...

 

[renniks]

Jesus' parables illustrate truths, we just follow where they lead.

They certainly do illustrate truths. And one of those truth is the goats will be separated from the sheep.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Shrewd Manager said: ↑
Well I can't see how the shepherd who returns without that one lost sheep can rejoice. Can't see how a father whose son is still out in the pigsty can sleep well. Can't see how a physician can be said to be great by turning the afflicted away.

renniks said: ↑
It doesn't matter what I see, or understand..it matters what God says about it.

Jesus' parables illustrate truths, we just follow where they lead.

They certainly do illustrate truths. And one of those truth is the goats will be separated from the sheep.

Indeed.
Now if only we can get the Jews of today to understand them.........

Luke 16 "Rich Man/Poor Man" parable.....The most misunderstood/misinterpreted Parable in the NT?

This "Covenantle" parable is probably my largest study of the Bible and would like to go thru it.

This translation of verses 19-31 is by using the T-R, a Greek interlinear, and Lexicon/Concordance.

Luke 16 YLT

Luke 16:
14And also the Pharisees, being lovers of money, were hearing all these things, and were deriding him, 15and he said to them, ‘Ye are those declaring yourselves righteous before men, but God doth know your hearts; because that which among men is high, [is] abomination before God; 16the law and the prophets [are] till John; since then the reign of God is proclaimed good news, and every one doth press into it; 17and it is easier to the heaven and the earth to pass away, than of the law one tittle to fall.
18‘Every one who is sending away his wife, and marrying another, doth commit adultery; and every one who is marrying her sent away from a husband doth commit adultery.

19 Yet a certain Man was rich and was clothed purple and fine-linen, making-merry down to a-day shiningly
20 Yet a certain Poor-one was to name Lazarus, who had been cast toward the his gate, having sores-abiding
21 And yearning to be satisfied from the scraps, those falling from the table of the Rich-one, but also the dogs coming licked-upon the sores of him.
22 Became yet to be dying the Poor-one and to be carried away him by the Messengers into the bosom of Abraham.
Yet died also the Rich-one and was entombed.
23 And in the hades lifting up his eyes existing in torments, he is seeing the Abraham from afar and Lazarus in the bosoms of him.
24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be you merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me, that I am being pained in this flame".
25 Said yet Abraham "Child! be thou being reminded! that thou got the goods of the in the life of thee and Lazarus in like manner the evils,
yet now here he is being comforted and thou art being pained.
26 And upon all of these between us and ye a chasm great hath been established so that those willing to cross-over hence toward ye no may be able, neither thence toward us may be ferrying"
27 Saying yet "I am asking thee then father!, that thou should be sending him into the house of my father,
28 for I am having five brothers which he may be testifying to them that no also they may be coming into the place this of the torment".
29 Abraham is saying to him "they are having Moses and the Prophets let them hear them!".
30 The yet he said: "not! father Abraham, but if ever any from dead-ones may be going forth toward them they shall be reforming.
31 Saying yet to him "if Moses and the Prophets not they are hearing, neither if ever anyone out of dead-ones may be rising, they shall be being persuaded".
============================
There are a plethora of commentaries concerning this parable that can be found doing a google search:

https://www.google.com/search?clien....141.764.2j5......0....1..gws-wiz.S73AQsp5qKI
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I happen to like the commentary on this site as he delves into the Greek in most places, so I will be using him a lot.

A little background on where the parable was spoken and to whom it was spoken.

Note the reaction by the Judean religious Rulers to this parable:

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Let's start by getting some background information on the situation in which Yeshua told this parable. Luke tells us that all the tax collectors and sinners were coming to the Messiah to hear what he had to say (Luke 15:1).
This made the Pharisees and scribes jealous and they complained, vehemently criticizing Yeshua for receiving sinners and eating with them (Luke 15:2). They were likely envious of his growing fame, afraid that his popularity would diminish their own authority and prestige.

So the Messiah first spoke a trio of related parables (the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son) to those gathered around him.
They were designed to show the tax collectors and sinners (as well as the Pharisees) that God was concerned for them and that He would seek out the lost and welcome them into His family when they repented and turned back to Him.

The self-righteous Pharisees and scribes, acknowledged by Yeshua as the legitimate religious teachers of the Jews (Matt. 23:1-3), should have been the ones telling these people of God's love for them. They should have been the ones teaching these sinners, exhorting them to return to God and receive His love and forgiveness. However, because of their faith in their own righteousness and their contempt for these tax collectors and sinners who didn't measure up to their standards, the Pharisees and scribes excluded them and considered them accursed (John 7:49).

Afterward, speaking primarily to his disciples but with the Pharisees (and probably the crowd) still listening in, Yeshua related the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-13).
The Pharisees, who were "lovers of money" (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Yeshua.

The final part of his response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
======================================
Luke 16:
19 Yet a certain Man<444> was rich and was clothed in purple and fine-linen, making-merry down to a-day shiningly.

Using a concordance, I fount that the phrase "a certain man" is only found in the parables of the Gospel of Luke.

Genesis 1:1 (YLT)

Luke 10:30
Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.
Luk 13:6
He also spoke this parable: “A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard, and he came seeking fruit on it and found none.
Luk 14:2
And behold, there was a certain man before Him who had dropsy.
Luk 14:16
Then He said to him, “A certain man gave a great supper and invited many,
Luk 15:11
Then He said: “A certain man had two sons.
Luk 16:1
And he said also unto his disciples, 'A certain man was rich, who had a steward, and he was accused to him as scattering his goods;
Luk 16:19
'And -- a certain man was rich, and was clothed in purple and fine linen, making merry sumptuously every day,
Luk 19:12
He said therefore, 'A certain man of birth went on to a far country, to take to himself a kingdom, and to return,
Luk 20:9
Then He began to tell the people this parable: “A certain man planted a vineyard, leased it to vinedressers, and went into a far country for a long time.
===============================
G444 used in 24 verses of the covenantle book of Revelation......

Genesis 1:1 (YLT)
G444 ἄνθρωπος (anthrōpos), occurs 559 times in 504 verses

1st verse used in Revelation:

Rev 1:13
and in the midst of the seven lamp-stands, one like to a son of man, clothed to the foot, and girt round at the breast with a golden girdle,

Last verse used:

Rev 21:17
and he measured its wall, an hundred forty-four cubits, the measure of a Man, that is, of the Messenger;
==================================
Commentaries from "biblehub"
Luke 16:19 Commentaries:
======================
TO BE CONTINUED................

Kindgdom Bible Studies Template Page

Usually, when the story of the rich man and Lazarus is considered, its setting is ignored. At the time the story was told Jesus had just eaten dinner with a Pharisee, at which time He not only healed a man with dropsy, but gave some pointed advice about how to give a dinner party. When He left the house, great throngs followed Him.
Many of this great company were publicans and sinners who drew near to hear His teaching, and mingled with them were a great number of the scribes and Pharisees. The scribes and Pharisees complained openly and bitterly against Jesus, condemning Him because He received sinners into His company and ate with them.
Against this background of biting criticism Jesus stood and gave the teachings found in chapters fifteen and sixteen of Luke.

There are five stories which follow consecutively. It is well known, of course, that chapters and verses were not in the original scriptures. We are at liberty to change them when they do not synchronize with other scripture. Any arrangement of chapter and verse division that clarifies or harmonizes other scripture, is more authoritative than that division that beclouds other statements of the Bible.
At the beginning of Jesus’ discourse in chapter fifteen of Luke the statement is made that “He spoke this parable unto them, saying,” (Lk. 15:3). The Greek is very definite in making the word for parable clearly a singular noun. It is “the parable this..”
This statement is followed by five separate stories, the first of which is the story of the lost sheep, and the last is the story of the rich man and Lazarus. You see, the teaching in chapter sixteen is but the continuation of the discourse in chapter fifteen, without interruption. Now, which of the five stories He gave them in this sermon was called a parable?
The only one of the five which is prefaced by the claim, “And He spoke this parable unto them,” was the story about the lost sheep.
Was the lost sheep the only one that could be called a parable? And yet, any preacher or believer that I know will answer that the story of the lost coin, as well as the prodigal son, were also parables. Then why was the singular used - “this parable”?

It should be clear to any thinking mind that all these stories were ONE PARABLE, like the facets of a diamond, as they turn each scintillates with new brilliance. Each was illustrating a view point of one great truth, and together they compose a whole. And this parabolic discourse of Jesus is continued into chapter sixteen of Luke, including the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The truth is that all five stories are each a fractional part of the complete parable, and when we read, “He spoke this parable unto them,” this embraces the entire collection of symbol-pictures which in their completeness constituted the parable which He spoke. It is a careless assumption and an unfounded assertion to argue that the story of the rich man and Lazarus is not a parable!
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[GingerBeer]

Just countering the idea that the publishing of the scriptures somehow inspired the heresy hunts ...

It did. But heresy hunting didn't need bible publishers. People have heresy hunted for as long as we have records of people doing things. Long before there was a bible.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

A_Thinker said: ↑
Just countering the idea that the publishing of the scriptures somehow inspired the heresy hunts ...

It did. But heresy hunting didn't need bible publishers. People have heresy hunted as we have records of people doing things. Long before there was a bible.

Reminds me of this fun thread on the GT board.

My Favorite Heresy. :)

Let's have a little fun. Name your favorite heresy. By favorite I mean the doctrine or belief that drives you crazy. The one you can't believe anybody else could buy into.
It's not meant to be argumentative, simply a way to see how we all feel differently about different things.
Of course, using the word heresy is only to describe how strongly we feel about it, not that it actually is a heresy. So relax, sit back and learn to laugh at yourself a bit.

I'll go first: fundamentalism.

Go Cards!
====================
My Favorite Heresy. :) (2)

 

[FineLinen]

They certainly do illustrate truths. And one of those truth is the goats will be separated from the sheep.

Yup, two clean animals will be separated from each other. Have you ever wondered why 2 clean, rather than 1 clean and 1 unclean? Perhaps the 10 virgins should be added, not 5 harlots and 5 virgins, 10 clean virgins. Why?

ON the SHEEP and the GOATS By Jonathan Mitchell

 

[brinny]

renniks said: ↑
They certainly do illustrate truths. And one of those truth is the goats will be separated from the sheep.

Yup, two clean animals will be separated from each other. Have you ever wondered why 2 clean,rather than 1 clean and 1 unclean? Perhaps the 10 virgins should be added, not 5 harlots and 5 virgins, 10 clean virgins. Why?

ON the SHEEP and the GOATS By Jonathan Mitchell

What has what you posted got to do with the post that you quoted?

The bottom line of the sheep and the goats is that Jesus' sheep are repentant and thus He "knows" them. It is to the goats that He says to: "Depart from me. I never knew you."

 

[FineLinen]

So you believe in determinism? One of the ones Jesus chose was Judas. Being chosen does not mean you will necessarily remain or follow.

I believe the Master refuses to allow miracle remnants of fish and bread to be apollumi. He also refuses to allow any apollumi sinner to be lost. Yes, He is determined!

Beware: You are only allowed 70 X 7 forgiveness credits

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

They certainly do illustrate truths. And one of those truth is the goats will be separated from the sheep.

Did a search for "sheep goats" christian forums:

https://www.google.com/search?q=she...S6wKHb9BCmIQrQIoBDAAegQIBRAN&biw=1366&bih=626

Questions Regarding Sheep & Goats

In St. Matthew chapter 25 we have before us the words regarding "everlasting punishment." And, we have before us the context for aionios kovlasiß and the qualifying standards for the same. Let's take a brief look at what kolasis means in the Greek.

Punishment= kovlasiß =

Correction, punishment, penalty.

kovlasiß rooted in kolavzw

kolavzw =

To lop or prune, as trees and wings.

To curb, check, restrain.

To chastise, correct, punish.

To cause to be punished.

English: Correction =

1. alteration that corrects something: an alteration that removes an error

2. written comment on error: something written beside an error in a text to point out what should be there instead.

3. removal of errors: the removal of errors from something, or the indication of errors in something

4. modification to calculation: an adjustment made to a calculation or measurement to compensate for an observed deviation from ideal conditions

5. punishment to reform somebody: punishment, especially when meant to improve or reform the person punished.

HERE

Questions:

1. Why is the Master speaking to two clean animals?

2. Are the clean animals of sheep and goats a continuation of the narrative of the servants of the Lord and the ten virgins? Why?

3. Why does the Master not speak of sheep and dogs, or sheep and pigs (pigs and dogs both unclean animals in the O.T.)

4. In the context for "everlasting punishment", what are the qualifications for the same. Is unbelief, failure to believe, failure to "accept Christ as your personal Saviour", rebellion, iniquity, etc., mentioned or inferred by the Lord Jesus Christ?

5. Does the correction of kovlasiß, rooted in kolavzw, ever come to completion?
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Potential error in interpretation of Sheep and Goats parable

I've been encountering what I believe is the most popular interpretation of the Sheep and Goats parable. This states that the Sheep are the believers and the Goats, the non-believers. I am convinced that this interpretation is incorrect.

Here's my reasoning.

In the parable, Christ has gathered the nations before him and then divides them to the right and left as sheep and goats respectively. He then addresses them as such referring to their works and how they treated the least of his brethren. So where are his brethren in this parable? The Sheep? No, because he uses the same reference to his brethren when addressing both sides.

To resolve this, it's important to remember that he's addressing the nations, not his brethren. When viewed in this perspective, it becomes apparent that there is a third group in the parable, his brethren.

But who are his brethren? To get the answer, we just have to read Mark 3:35:

"For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother."

So his brethren are the faithful.

 

[lsume]

Are you saying that salvation is found in the lake of fire?

Of course not. Salvation is found in Christ.

 

[brinny]

brinny said: ↑
Are you saying that salvation is found in the lake of fire?

Of course not. Salvation is found in Christ.

Explain what you mean by the "cleansing" of the lake of fire.

 

[lsume]

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Yes it definitely means eternity for the those pointed out in God’s Word. Please read the following Scripture and pray for understanding.

1. th.

Dan.12

1. [2] And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[brinny]

renniks said: ↑
So you believe in determinism? One of the ones Jesus chose was Judas. Being chosen does not mean you will necessarily remain or follow.

I believe the Master refuses to allow mracle remnants of fish and bread to be apollumi. He also refuses to allow any apollumi sinner to be lost. Yes, He is determined!

Beware: You are only allowed 70 X 7 forgiveness credits

This makes no sense.

 

[lsume]

Explain what you mean by the "cleansing" of the lake of fire.

If you should ever find yourself suspended over the lake of fire, I think you will find it to be very cleansing.

 

[brinny]

brinny said: ↑
Explain what you mean by the "cleansing" of the lake of fire.

If you should ever find yourself suspended over the lake of fire, I think you will find it to be very cleansing.

Your response does not answer the question.

What is meant by the "cleansing" of the lake of fire?

 

[lsume]

Your response does not answer the question.

What is meant by the "cleansing" of the lake of fire?

What I suggest is that you pray about fasting. Ask Christ to lead you into and preserve you in a fast. If your prayer is answered, seek with all of your heart. If it’s your time, you will be taught directly by Christ. I can never teach you like Christ must. I believe that if you are chosen, you will go through whatever is predestined for you to go through. I realize that my answer seems vague but I don’t want to interfere with what may be your destiny. This certainly makes it sound like many are called but few are chosen but that is a fact. I never would have guessed that I would be called as I was. I had met another as a young man only very briefly. I mean briefly like 20 seconds max. He was a stranger in the church we went to when I was in the navy. I had never seen him before and have not seen him since to my knowledge. He approached me and asked me if I was born again to which I replied in the affirmative. He responded be saying “I thought I was”. About 16 years later when Christ came to me as a thief in the night He brought me back to that exact moment. He also brought me back to another brief moment when I had asked an elder about the meaning of the Scripture pertaining to predestination. When Christ came to me I immediately knew why both of the events took place so many years earlier. You might imagine how exciting that was. My eyes were opened. May Christ lead you to the truth.

 

[brinny]

brinny said: ↑
Your response does not answer the question.

What is meant by the "cleansing" of the lake of fire?

What I suggest is that you pray about fasting. Ask Christ to lead you into and preserve you in a fast. If your prayer is answered, seek with all of your heart. If it’s your time, you will be taught directly by Christ. I can never teach you like Christ must. I believe that if you are chosen, you will go through whatever is predestined for you to go through. I realize that my answer seems vague but I don’t want to interfere with what may be your destiny. This certainly makes it sound like many are called but few are chosen but that is a fact. I never would have guessed that I would be called as I was. I had met another as a young man only very briefly. I mean briefly like 20 seconds max. He was a stranger in the church we went to when I was in the navy. I had never seen him before and have not seen him since to my knowledge. He approached me and asked me if I was born again to which I replied in the affirmative. He responded be saying “I thought I was”. About 16 years later when Christ came to me as a thief in the night He brought me back to that exact moment. He also brought me back to another brief moment when I had asked an elder about the meaning of the Scripture pertaining to predestination. When Christ came to me I immediately knew why both of the events took place so many years earlier. You might imagine how exciting that was. My eyes were opened. May Christ lead you to the truth.

Nowhere in God's Word does it state that the lake of fire "cleanses" or is for "cleansing". This is contrary to the "cleansing" from the blood of Jesus the Christ, that "cleanses" us.

That is why i asked if the lake of fire "saves" us, because only Jesus the Christ is our Savior, and only His blood "cleanses" us.

 

[Strong in Him]

Beware: You are only allowed 70 X 7 forgiveness credits

I hope that's not a serious statement?