Sacred formality vs. Casual atmosphere? Effects on worshipfulness?

[Gxg (G²)]

Yes, I confess, what we are used to and where we come from affects how we think. And it is hard not to judge and put wrong motives on a person - Lord forgive me.
.

Right there with ya

I used to always love the ladies' hats. I never knew anything about "hat wars" or any competitiveness. I used to be (and to a degree probably still am) somewhat oblivious to competitiveness based on style of dress and similar factors. Blissfully unaware, LOL.

Some of it is interesting to consider since the same dynamics happened in the Early Church often - and while the expression of those battles may be hats in some circles (or earings in others or how well-dressed people are compared to others), the background to the struggle remains the same.

I have to consider Paul's comments when it comes to the wearing of braids and jewerly. I don't really see it where Paul was automatically against any and all forms of braiding based on what the text says - and the same goes for what Peter noted.

In example, video games are a cool invention and something many families participate in - and yet they have the ability to be addictive/destructive when they are ALL you invest time in (As with anything). Thus, if kids are absorbed into a game rather than wanting to be with family, it'd be sensible for parents to note to their kids "You should be investing in good things like quality time with friends - not wasting your time with obsession with games or entertainment"..

The nuance involved in that statement would not be a wholesale condemnation of video games or saying they're bad in/of themselves - for what would be understood is that you're speaking of the game IN LIGHT of the damage it was doing because others abused it...and thus, you were never to be taken in a general/over-reaching sense.

Paul would be foolish to say braids and jewelry were to be condemned since it occurred frequently in the OT.

For basic examples, One of the first passages in the Bible to deal with jewelry is Gen 24:47, 48 which reads,

“And I asked her, and said, whose daughter art thou? And she said, the daughter of Bethuel, Nahor's son, whom Milcah bare unto him: and I put the earring upon her face, and the bracelets upon her hands. And I bowed down my head, and worshipped the LORD, and blessed the LORD God of my master Abraham, which had led me in the right way to take my master's brother's daughter unto his son.”
​

Here we have a tender story of Abraham's servant giving jewelry to Rebekah, who was the woman God had specially chosen for Isaac.

Also, we have David, the man said to be after God’s own heart, writing in Ps 25:12,

“As an earring of gold, and an ornament of fine gold, so is a wise reprover upon an obedient ear.”
​

Then you have Isaiah the prophet Isaiah who wrote in Isa 61:10,

“I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.”
​

Here Isaiah compares righteousness and salvation to a bride and bridegroom who adorn themselves with jewelry.

Going back to Paul and Peter, with modesty, is there a set standard to how it looks---in light of what Paul noted in I Timothy 2 and what the scriptures say about.

1 Timothy 2:9-10

9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.


1 Peter 3:1-6

3:1 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 3Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— 4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

​

It seems Peter and Paul are simply teaching that Christian believers should be more concerned with beautifying the inward man than beautifying the outward man. ..teaching that we should not be overly concerned with outward beauty.

For Jewelry, like every other good thing from God, can and has been abused by carnal man.

Something I found interesting (As it concerns Peter/Paul's statements on jewelry and braiding) is that it seemed to be very connected to the issue of class/stratification when it came to how others deemed beauty on how well you looked and what you had.

In the Middle Ages, the wealthy wore golden icon crosses encrusted with jewels to Church - and many, if not most, were probably not true followers of the Lord.

Likewise, the same dynamics occurred in the times of the Apostles. We do know that jewelry was common in the Roman Empire. The Oxford History of the Classical World has this to say:

The wearing of excessive jewellery [sic] was a practice which [Roman] legislators had long since given up trying to curb, though moralists still condemned it. Pliny rails against women who wore pearls on their fingers, on their earrings, and on their slippers, and reports with disapproval how Caligula's first Empress, Lollia Paulina, turned up to a feast wearing emeralds and pearls on her head, hair, ears, neck, and fingers
​

At various times (as another noted best), different types of rings were used to signify social status—slave or free, citizen or non-citizen, aristocrat or commoner. These rules were enforced by law, but were gradually relaxed as more people wanted to be able to wear fancier rings. Because the Greco-Roman world was a pagan society, jewelry in this time doubtless functioned in much the same way as it did in with regard to its religious aspects. It probably was accorded supernatural powers and used as protection from evil or a method to persuade the gods to act in a certain way.

More can be found in Wealth and Poverty in Early Church and Society - Page 128 and Picturing the Bible: The Earliest Christian Art - Page 233



It was interesting finding out that some of the dress styles present in the lives of others were not always signs that something was negative - just as it's not always the case that someone who's rich is in sin (since the Lord commanded in I Timothy 6 for the rich to be generous as a way to honor the Lord with their wealth and commanded no favoritism per James 2). But for many, having more religious symbolism as garb to wear functioned as a means of showing where they may've been above certain laws/concepts - or they may've felt insecure in their eternal status....and had more access to things as a means of feeling secure

And we see this same theme even in the Epistle of James when it came to noting where clothing/jewels were often used to symbolize social status and gain ability for others to treat one more favorably than others:

James 2:1-8

Favoritism Forbidden

2 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. 2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have dishonored the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are blaspheming the noble name of him to whom you belong?
​

Because others didn't remember where TRUE Value comes from, the jewels were abused ...and thus, as common in the times of the Apostles, people took a good thing and made it into a bad situation.

In I Peter 3:1-6, verse 3 says, "Your beauty should not come from outward adornment" (NIV). Peter is speaking of the source of one's beauty. ..and this could be interpreted, then, as instructions on beauty, not instructions on what is worn. In other words, according to this interpretation, the issue is not whether a woman wears jewelry, but whether she uses it as her source of beauty. For the Apostle says that the source of beauty should be "a gentle and quiet spirit" (I Peter 3:4). This goes well in connection with what's seen in verses 1 and 2 when Peter gives the reason for his instructions by saying "Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives" (NIV). It is plain that n Peter's emphasis on internals, rather than externals.

The same concept applies to what Paul said - for in Paul's time, you had prostitutes adorning their hair in certain styles with many jewels of a certain fashion utilized - and you also had it where those jewels symbolized certain dynamics....some of it being a subversive way of showing to ALL in the congregation their status as upper-class and thinking highly of themselves, as well as advertising for their husbands....similar to others coming into churches daily and having a fashion show and dressing so others would look at them in church while sermon or worship is going on - and they would rub elbows with others like them while thinking less of those without .

Thus, to come into fellowship for prayer and be doing the same thing would be HIGHLY distracting - especially if one came from that background. So it seems wise to note that Paul's preference (As one who supported the OT) was not against jewels - but a specific application thereof going on in his era.


For more info:

• 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus - Page 48
• The First Epistle of Paul the Apostle to Timothy - Page 92
• The Image of God in This Generation - Page 97
• What Paul Really Said About Women: The Apostle's Liberating Views ... - Page 89

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Glad to know that it was of benefit.

It is difficult at times realizing that in CF I'm one of the few Black posters on board with experience in African-American background (and other cultures connected to the Black experience...from Afro-Hispanic to Afro-Asian to Caribbean, etc.). And sometimes, when seeing some of the comments make (or the ways others don't speak on the issue), it's a burden since there's such an evident gap present

My experience is African without the hyphen. I have dual citizenship. When filling out a form recently the official had a confused look on his face. I asked what the problem was. He said he wasn't sure if Caucasian or African-American should me checked. I told him yes. I don't think that helped. I thought about telling him I really liked Motown music but he looked confused enough. He checked both.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Y
But forgive me ... I've been part of a dance team, been in churches where half the congregation gathers at the front during singing and all dance, seen altar dancers, and all kinds of things in between. And yet, it's difficult even with all of that in my background to watch the guys here and not think they might be doing it to draw attention to themselves.


I actually love dancing during worship, but I don't do it in church. Well ... there were a couple of churches I attended that had private little alcoves I managed to find, where I could pray and dance in privacy while the congregation worshiped. That was pretty cool. But I don't do it in front of anyone (except choreographed performances when I was in dance ministry) because I don't want to draw any attention to myself. I fear that if I did do it, my mind would probably wander to what someone who saw me might think, and I don't want my focus to be there. So only God sees me. That is better for my own spiritual state

.

True enough - doing dance ministry extensively and being there myself, it's hard not to think less of others and more of ourselves in our own motives. For to someone else, even the dance we do that seems calm may still seem unbiblical..

Much like David with his wife Michael when it came to the traditional dances he did and how offended she was before him in II Samuel 6:17-23 when it came to the Ark of the Covenant being brought back and him doing a ritual dance...and in line with others noting like Psalm 149:2-3 that we should praise His name with dancing - those filled with awe of who He is and the work he has done do so easily.

And yes, I've seen some very wild things even though I've enjoyed dancing before the Lord in crazy moments as well before Him, in churches that were very supporting of dance before Him. And I'm thankful for others doing so as well - one of favorite dances ever:

Onething Dance 2008 (IHOP-KC) - YouTube

 

[Gxg (G²)]

My experience is African without the hyphen. I have dual citizenship. .
When filling out a form recently the official had a confused look on his face. I asked what the problem was. He said he wasn't sure if Caucasian or African-American should me checked. I told him yes. I don't think that helped. I thought about telling him I really liked Motown music but he looked confused enough. He checked both

One of my friends I grew up with (from South Africa) had the same experience - his family being from the white community in South Africa even though they had no problem joking with others (as they moved to the U.S ) that they were "African-American"

Being biracial (Afro-Hispanic ) as well as having White Great-Grandfather and being in a multicultural family, I've found it odd that others assume "You're just black!" when it comes to how I look and not even realizing how many blacks identify with several cultures due to their genetic/cultural make-up and how many who are white grew up in Black communities/identify with them more so than others....people often go by color alone and forget values. Some of this has happened even here on CF, sadly (as seen here and here/here/here).

 

[nephilimiyr]

Forgive me. It wasn't you but that saying. I have no idea what you believe so it wasn't meant personally.
That saying reminded me of so many leaving a church over music, comfort or convenience and that just hits me like fingernails on the chalkboard.

Again I ask forgiveness I wasn't going off on you personally (although I did quote you), I was going off on a phrase. And yes you hit upon it. it was , "what does it for me".
If we are simple speaking of music, I have no issue. If we are speaking of worship, it just hits me wrong. And worship is the topic.

Oh, I see, yeah fingernails on chalkboard is very unconfortable. Please let me explain what I mean by that phrase, maybe you wont feel as uncomfortable about it.

I don't mean that in a way of being entertained. I believe music speaks to our emotions, in that it can make us feel happy or sad, at ease or irritable, angry or mad, etc., etc. The type of music we listen to in a service should be something that puts us at ease to open ouselves up to listen to the word being taught or preached, and to worship God more freely, not to be entertained.

For instance, the music Cogent posted would not put me at ease but probably make me more irritable than anything simply because I can't stand that type of music, although for him it works, meaning it makes him feel at ease, he likes it. That music serves it's purpose for him. It's what I beleive comes down to personal perference. I would never say what he or you like is wrong because it comes down to the purpose of what the music in worship is supposed to accomplish. It's purpose is to soften you up and help make you more at ease so that you can worship God spirit to Spirit. I find it hard, not impossible, but hard to worship God in the way I should when I'm listening to music I don't like.

I hope this helps.

Reps coming your way!

 

[nephilimiyr]

I have no issue with the music. I have no issue with someone enjoying being in worship. i was harping on a phrase used by many when speaking of worship.
For sure, it is of us. But it's not about us. What Christ did was about us. But worship is another matter. It's not just due to my tribe. i felt this way before becoming a part of my community. We had songs, old songs called worship songs. The theme? How wonderful it will be for me. There was a Red hymnal 410 pages long. I found three songs praising God in it. The rest...about us singing how I like this or how this helps me.
Yes it's my hair trigger. I should keep the safety on Sis.
I find many of the newer songs much better. They focus on praising God and saying how wonderful he is. Or the very old hymns that actually praise Him.

I really wasn't intending to go off on the fellow. It was just the third time i'd read "this is what does it for me" and being a thread about "worshipfulness", I thought it needed to be said. I should have said it without being so crude and abrupt. But I assure you that wasn't even close to me going off. I wrote it calmly. Poorly but calmly.
Am I forgiven or should I set in the corner longer?

You're just fine where you're at.
You were a bit reactionary to the phrase I used, and I was a bit reactionary to the reply you gave, which I as well apologize for. It's water under the bridge now as far as I'm concerned.

However, unfortunately, as you read my last reply to you, I did mean the phrase I used in the way you say 'hits you in the wrong way'. I'm sorry but the type of music in worship is very important to me, whether I'm in a church service or sitting in my car, or at home. Hopefully we can simply agree to disagree and leave it at that?

 

[sunlover1]

Glad to know that it was of benefit.

It is difficult at times realizing that in CF I'm one of the few Black posters on board with experience in African-American background (and other cultures connected to the Black experience...from Afro-Hispanic to Afro-Asian to Caribbean, etc.). And sometimes, when seeing some of the comments make (or the ways others don't speak on the issue), it's a burden since there's such an evident gap present

Culture gap you mean?
Sure.
My 'church culture" is a black culture and that's why I originally
mentioned 'culture' and caftans etc.
I know from experience that some things folks do are about
culture and background more than religion.
Being one of the few white folks in my church, I have had to
be schooled. Being on the worship team, I spent a lot of time
with the others in more of an intimate environment (rehearsals
prayer before worship etc) and SO many times, the jokes all
were laughing about went right over my head ..
Funny too because we're all from the same country/state.
I love how God created us so many colors/tones etc.
Beautiful.

However, unfortunately, as you read my last reply to you, I did mean the phrase I used in the way you say 'hits you in the wrong way'. I'm sorry but the type of music in worship is very important to me, whether I'm in a church service or sitting in my car, or at home. Hopefully we can simply agree to disagree and leave it at that?

The worship music is the number one thing that brings me to worship
with my tribe. I take that back. God is who leads me, but it's the music
that I LIKE the best about going lol.
So if I can't make it for the worship part, I don't make it at all.
And I'd have no problem going for the worship and then leaving.
It's in the worship that the strongholds are destroyed and things
break through in the heavenlies.
I'm with you.
The music is a huge deal for me.
I like to sing love songs to Him, like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gs_qlCWrPk

 

[~Anastasia~]

I can certainly understand what Nephilimiyr is saying. I know there are services where they play really hard rock type music - and I've seen people who really love it, and can worship to it. I really can't. Same with very country-style southern-gospel.

Some of the liturgical worship I can't, but I am finding some of it I probably could. I would love to have names for the styles - not sure if there are any.

I usually say that I like contemporary praise and worship songs, but I've also learned that what that means to some people is very different from what I'm talking about.

My real preferences are somewhat narrow, but I try to accommodate different styles. I know what Neph means though with the wrong type of music, I am simply distracted by the sound of it and some put me on edge so that I can't get past it and enter into worship.

The thing I think I am glad of is that there are praise songs that are perfect for me, there are hymns that are perfect for me, and there are liturgies I really like. So ... it's actually not that difference that matters. It's something else I can't quite explain in words.

But the good thing that means is that no matter what group of those a church uses, there is a chance it might suit me. I'm very thankful for that.

 

[~Anastasia~]

God is who leads me, but it's the music
that I LIKE the best about going lol.
So if I can't make it for the worship part, I don't make it at all.
And I'd have no problem going for the worship and then leaving.
It's in the worship that the strongholds are destroyed and things
break through in the heavenlies.
I'm with you.
The music is a huge deal for me.
I like to sing love songs to Him, like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gs_qlCWrPk

I love that song.

I know what you mean about the importance of worship. I feel as though I am dying if I have to go to a church that does the perfunctory 3-songs-we're-done thing and gets to the teaching. I love teaching too (when it's good) but worship is like my life and breath. I always said it was what feeds my spirit, but yes, I think sometimes it has other strong spiritual benefits. When I've been going through a very difficult time (and it seems like I've surely had several of those) it was the worship that brought me through. Always. Makes me want to weep, just remembering that.

I've been late a few times and missed (or almost missed) the worship. I feel as though I haven't been at church when that happens.

I know one church wanted me to do children's church, so I did. But that took me out of worship, week after week, and no one would ever fill in. I asked if they could just let me come to worship sometimes and then I'd take over children's church, but it never happened. I finally got it arranged so I could teach Sunday School instead and so be in worship, but I don't think I could ever plan to be in church with no worship indefinitely again.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Here is a Mass from last Sunday, it is intended for the benefit of those who are shut in due to various issues. I hope you enjoy it (sorry for the advertising at the beginning).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMIB0sqcRiI

 

[MoreCoffee]

Aside from the priest being younger and having more hair than my priest the mass on that video clip is very like the mass we had on Sunday.

Mind you, the younger priest is a little more theatrical than my priest. Both has lovely singing voices, but my priest doesn't sing the words of Christ in the consecration.

I hope you enjoyed it.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Oh, I see, yeah fingernails on chalkboard is very unconfortable. Please let me explain what I mean by that phrase, maybe you wont feel as uncomfortable about it.

I don't mean that in a way of being entertained. I believe music speaks to our emotions, in that it can make us feel happy or sad, at ease or irritable, angry or mad, etc., etc. The type of music we listen to in a service should be something that puts us at ease to open ouselves up to listen to the word being taught or preached, and to worship God more freely, not to be entertained.

For instance, the music Cogent posted would not put me at ease but probably make me more irritable than anything simply because I can't stand that type of music, although for him it works, meaning it makes him feel at ease, he likes it. That music serves it's purpose for him. It's what I beleive comes down to personal perference. I would never say what he or you like is wrong because it comes down to the purpose of what the music in worship is supposed to accomplish. It's purpose is to soften you up and help make you more at ease so that you can worship God spirit to Spirit. I find it hard, not impossible, but hard to worship God in the way I should when I'm listening to music I don't like.

I hope this helps.

Reps coming your way!

It helps more than you know.

 

[sunlover1]

I love that song.

I know what you mean about the importance of worship. I feel as though I am dying if I have to go to a church that does the perfunctory 3-songs-we're-done thing and gets to the teaching. I love teaching too (when it's good) but worship is like my life and breath. I always said it was what feeds my spirit, but yes, I think sometimes it has other strong spiritual benefits. When I've been going through a very difficult time (and it seems like I've surely had several of those) it was the worship that brought me through. Always. Makes me want to weep, just remembering that.

I've been late a few times and missed (or almost missed) the worship. I feel as though I haven't been at church when that happens.

I know one church wanted me to do children's church, so I did. But that took me out of worship, week after week, and no one would ever fill in. I asked if they could just let me come to worship sometimes and then I'd take over children's church, but it never happened. I finally got it arranged so I could teach Sunday School instead and so be in worship, but I don't think I could ever plan to be in church with no worship indefinitely again.

Oh what a bummer!
We keep the kids for worship, THEN we release them with their teachers
to go get fed themselves.
LOVE watching little ones worship God.
In one church that I attended for a minute, the toddlers
would sing and dance up in front of the first row of benches
while we worshiped. They had streamers and such, yet they
didn't goof off as you'd expect littles to do in a bunch,
they worshiped God with their voices and their dance.
Was the coolest thing.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Culture gap you mean?
Sure.
My 'church culture" is a black culture and that's why I originally
mentioned 'culture' and caftans etc.

I know from experience that some things folks do are about
culture and background more than religion.

Being one of the few white folks in my church, I have had to
be schooled. Being on the worship team, I spent a lot of time
with the others in more of an intimate environment (rehearsals
prayer before worship etc) and SO many times, the jokes all
were laughing about went right over my head ..
Funny too because we're all from the same country/state.
I love how God created us so many colors/tones etc.
Beautiful.

Culture gap can also be used to describe things as well - although there is the ethnicity dynamic that I'm concerned for as well when it comes to simply having your ethnic background represented and not just others who grew up around it or appreciate it. Hard not to be aware of ....

Glad to hear of your church experience as I know of others in similar boats - it's truly a trip when you have a cross-cultural experience and able to laugh in it, even though some of the jokes do go past people at times....and when you learn them, you feel all the more connected and realize why folks say as they do.

 

[~Anastasia~]

LOL on the culture. I still remember the first time God sent me into a church (and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that He SENT me) and I didn't know until I went in that it was an all-black church.

I was mostly afraid that I wouldn't be welcomed there, and that they would wonder why I wanted to be there, but everyone was very nice and welcoming and seemed to think nothing of it. And EVERYone danced ... I actually didn't because I was so aware that my "style" was so different from theirs, and it made me self-conscious.

Those were the only cultural things that affected me though.

I will say it was a very highly spiritual church, and I appreciated that about them.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Here is a Mass from last Sunday, it is intended for the benefit of those who are shut in due to various issues. I hope you enjoy it

I did watch it because I was curious. I found it similar and yet different from the liturgy I attended on Wednesday.

I think I really like choirs. I also like the reading spoken because it's easier to understand, but sung is ok if I can follow along.

It was very thoughtful of them to include a prayer for the ones watching that could not participate in communion.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[GoingByzantine]

LOL on the culture. I still remember the first time God sent me into a church (and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that He SENT me) and I didn't know until I went in that it was an all-black church.

I was mostly afraid that I wouldn't be welcomed there, and that they would wonder why I wanted to be there, but everyone was very nice and welcoming and seemed to think nothing of it. And EVERYone danced ... I actually didn't because I was so aware that my "style" was so different from theirs, and it made me self-conscious.

Those were the only cultural things that affected me though.

I will say it was a very highly spiritual church, and I appreciated that about them.

Great story Kylissa!

 

[sunlover1]

Culture gap can also be used to describe things as well - although there is the ethnicity dynamic that I'm concerned for as well when it comes to simply having your ethnic background represented and not just others who grew up around it or appreciate it. Hard not to be aware of ....

Glad to hear of your church experience as I know of others in similar boats - it's truly a trip when you have a cross-cultural experience and able to laugh in it, even though some of the jokes do go past people at times....and when you learn them, you feel all the more connected and realize why folks say as they do.

God is good!

 

[MoreCoffee]

It will be palm Sunday this Sunday. I hope you all have a blessed day.

 

[~Anastasia~]

It will be palm Sunday this Sunday. I hope you all have a blessed day.

I might even get to go to a Divine Liturgy finally - that is if I don't get to go Saturday (which I am hoping I will!).

I offered to come help make palm crosses, if I can figure out how to do it.

But I join you in wishing everyone a blessed day!

(Accidental edit - I think I'm putting it right now lol)