Sacred formality vs. Casual atmosphere? Effects on worshipfulness?

[Rick Otto]

Whatever helps you connect with God...wear that.

As long as you wear something!

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Whatever helps you connect with God...wear that.

Just don't show up naked.

 

[Optimax]

As long as you wear something!

Just don't show up naked.

Two of the "wisest" comments that have been posted recently!

 

[Rick Otto]

Clothing dose not matter. Where you meet dose not matter. From a house to a hill. From casual to your best clothes. Where two or more meet together....

That's the ideal, but practical considerations can impose themselves.

Originally Posted by sunlover1

Hmm, I can't see why financial status would matter.
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Albion responds: Me either. But that is the statement to which I replied, i.e. that vestments and ceremony intimidate the poor. I don't see any reason to think that being poor would cause that reaction, but that it wouldn't affect anyone else. And, of course, no evidence was offered to show that it does.

My initial reading of "poor folk" included the folk who are poor enough in spirit to be intimidated by a blustering facade that presents itself as a legitimate authority, or if you buy in to it's legitimacy, you need to allow for it's intimidating majesty.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

I've noticed that the more formal the service does not equate with what the laity wears. often quite the opposite.
Business suits seem more prevalent in evangelic worship. Oddly enough so does the most casual of dress.
I can't remember ever seeing something as loud as a Hawaiian Shirt until lately in most churches of either form of worship. I think the "look at me' thing is something new for the laity. But then what I call new another may call old.

I tend to wear loud (my daughter says flamboyant) clothing when going about my normal day. In church I take care not to draw attention to myself dressing more reserved. But that's just me.
Now when I pass one particular local African American church I always love to see the hats. They find some really cool hats. Yes, I'd wear one outside of Church. And my daughter would be sooooo embarrassed.

My parent's house, where I grew up, was directly across the street from a very lively African-American church and everyone seemed to dress to the nines in pastels and yes, those great big hats. I always loved driving home from church and seeing their just going in (our service and Bible study was from 8-10:30, and their service was from 11:00 till... like, 4 or something).

Classic African-American forms of worship are so interesting. I feel like there's got to be some way to design a Eucharistic liturgy around it that is both properly liturgical (and thus catholic) and fully immersed in their cultural heritage, but I honestly just don't know enough. Obviously, it isn't for me to do, but for orthodox voices in their own community. Two professors at Concordia wrote a liturgy based on the orchestral jazz of Gershwin and others that utilized the highest artistic forms of America's contribution to world music but was also thoroughly American as an art form, and it actually turned out very, very well, I thought. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, it was only utilized once at the community chapel. I think more work like that needs to be done.

 

[NorrinRadd]

I can't remember ever seeing something as loud as a Hawaiian Shirt until lately in most churches of either form of worship. I think the "look at me' thing is something new for the laity. But then what I call new another may call old.

I had a couple of them that I used to wear back in the '80s. It never occurred to me to think of them as "loud." They were comfortable in the summer.

 

[Albion]

intimidated by a blustering façade...it's intimidating majesty.

Hyperbole is the word that comes to mind most readily.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Now when I pass one particular local African American church I always love to see the hats. They find some really cool hats. Yes, I'd wear one outside of Church. And my daughter would be sooooo embarrassed.

Hats are a very big deal in many African-American churches....as well as dress in general. Some of my favorite memories come from that background (as I grew up within it) - and I do think there is a place for wanting to honor the Lord with the way we dress. And yet I also think there's a level where what we deem honorable for us can cross the line when we look down on others not dressing the way that we do.

I'm reminded to things I grew up with in Black Churches where every Sunday we had to always dress in our Sunday Best - Suit & Tie, smooth looking shoes and dresses. To dress wasn't an issue as much as what I'd often hear when others said no jeans were to be worn since that'd not honor Christ - and to me, I never saw anywhere Jesus (who had a different dress style as a Middle Eastern Jew in 1st Century Jerusalem like all other Jews) ever said that you honor him by not wearing jeans when going to church. To me, it always seem perplexing to see others focus on it even though the rest of the week when believers met didn't require always dressing up and worship is supposed to be all the time...

What tripped me out was the hat battles - as it seemed people dressed up and yet it was essentially an opportunity to show off how well dressed we were. Of course, nothing wrong with wearing hats in/of itself - and there is a Biblical precedent when seeing I Corinthians 11 on coverings for the heads of women..

• Little Known Black History Fact: Church Hats | Black America Web

Renee Byrd -Why Do Black Women Wear Church Hats - YouTube

Hat Story - YouTube

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Wearing church hats is an African tradition initiating during slavery. During this time, black women dressed for church sprucing up their hats for Sunday service. This ritual of adorning the head for worship is an African tradition passed down from generation to generation. And while many faithful church women paid special attention to their Sunday linens, some allowed their ‘hat game’ to take precedence, becoming the center of attention.

Seeing the battles with hats and hair often tripped me out - and yet it was something that really bothered me as it concerns the issue of dress. Going back to Paul and Peter, THERE is a set standard to how it looks---in light of what Paul noted in I Timothy 2 and what the scriptures say about.

1 Timothy 2:9-10

9 likewise also that women should adorn themselves in respectable apparel, with modesty and self-control, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly attire, 10 but with what is proper for women who profess godliness—with good works.


1 Peter 3:1-6

3:1 Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, 2 when they see your respectful and pure conduct. 3Do not let your adorning be external—the braiding of hair and the putting on of gold jewelry, or the clothing you wear— 4 but let your adorning be the hidden person of the heart with the imperishable beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which in God's sight is very precious.5 For this is how the holy women who hoped in God used to adorn themselves, by submitting to their own husbands, 6 as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord. And you are her children, if you do good and do not fear anything that is frightening.

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It seems Peter and Paul are simply teaching that Christian believers should be more concerned with beautifying the inward man than beautifying the outward man. ..teaching that we should not be overly concerned with outward beauty.

For Jewelry, like every other good thing from God, can and has been abused by carnal man.

But within Black culture, seeing how much beauty is seen as a means of expression of worship, I'm glad they take the issue of hats seriously as well as other things

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Now when I pass one particular local African American church I always love to see the hats. They find some really cool hats. Yes, I'd wear one outside of Church. And my daughter would be sooooo embarrassed.

The dress styles as well as other traditions of Black Church culture are fascinating..Plantation Church: How African American Religion Was Born in Caribbean Slavery

And there is a fascinating book I've been wishing to get a hold of/read soon on the matter - entitled "Plantation Church: How African American Religion Was Born in Caribbean Slavery"

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Noel L. Erskine's new book Plantation Church: How African American Religion Was Born in Caribbean Slavery delves into the history of the Black Church, reaching back to its origins in the Caribbean and following its path into modern day. I was glad that the professor of theology and ethics sat down with Oxford University Press in honor of Black History Month to discuss the Plantation Church's origins and the prominent role the Caribbean played in its formation.

Even the history behind Negro Spirituals and how in many ways they were in the spirit of the Early Church liturgy when it came to living on the run and singing psalms/hymns before the Lord in caves or in the elements - the Black Church has truly powerful worship experiences present in it.

The example of Paul and Silas come to mind in Acts 16:24-26 /Acts 16 when they were in prision and they began to sing hymns/psalms. They didn't have a "Bible" with them (though the Word was certainly in their hearts)---and in light of their lack, they decided to begin singing. Admid their suffering Paul and Silas were miraculously freed from their confinement.. and God did an amazing work that led to others being saved.

G
Acts 16:16-34
Paul and Silas in Prison




After they had been severely flogged, they were thrown into prison, and the jailer was commanded to guard them carefully. 24 When he received these orders, he put them in the inner cell and fastened their feet in the stocks.

25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the other prisoners were listening to them. 26 Suddenly there was such a violent earthquake that the foundations of the prison were shaken. At once all the prison doors flew open, and everyone’s chains came loose.

These are things which orally-based cultures - from Indigenious groups in the 3rd world to what occurred with the Black Church with Negro Spirituals - all understand and have utilized to their success. Whereas people in the West or outside of those cultures think the people are somehow backward or not intelligent for not always placing things in a SYSTEMATIC form of theology, they are HIGHLY intelligent and able to connect with others because they know the language of their own people.

And it has evolved continually into much of what we seen today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TARf-3Zo6g

Sadly, there are many ways in which African-American cultural expression in worship has been both ignored - and belittled. This tends to evidenced itself whenever others assume that they have to redevelop the ways worship happens in order for it to be authentic when it comes to Eucharistic, Liturgy and communion with the Lord - ignoring the fact that African/Black cultural practice has had a deep communion and connection to the Lord that gets missed because (quite frankly) there has been so much focus on Euro-centric viewpoints and perspectives that ignores where others honored the Lord long before they came on the scene.

Some of this can be racially motivated, sadly - even on the unconscious level...

Some of this has been discussed before elsewhere - as seen here:

It's hard to help many realize how African Protestantism was mediated through Protestant missionaries in the context of Colonialism (with African Protestantism being its own branch in multiple levels) - meaning that of course the main/dominant leaders that get brought up as the "Founders" tend to be those who are European - and to realize that many of the groups they want to slap all together get offended due to how the Reformation and by deduction Protestantism was primarily a national, at best European movement in its stages - and one that often seemed not concerned with reflecting the culture of others it wanted to gain to its side like cards in a game....[/LEFT]

The same, of course, goes for Catholics seeing how it seems not many want to talk on the extensive ways they did the SAME things as the Protestants they try to group together when it comes to minorities having a DIFFERENT view of history in how they weren't considered. This comes to mind specifically with dynamics such as Liberation Theology - and how often I've seen it where Black Catholics have long noted that they always had a radically different understanding of Catholic Theology than other Catholics when it came to seeing solidarity with other Blacks who were Protestants...while other Catholics that were NOT Black seemed to be the main ones arguing on why Protestants and Catholics were not to work together whatsoever - and the same thing goes for Hispanics as well when it comes to Hispanic/Latino Hispanic Catholics seeing solidarity with those who are non-Catholic in the struggles they went through .....Liberation Theology uniting both groups together.

This is something I've also seen in Orthodoxy as well - as Black Orthodox have seemed far more able and willing to work with Non-Orthodox when it comes to seeing common struggles between groups. I'm reminded of Archbishop Iakovos, who offered 37 years of service which were distinguished by his leadership in furthering religious unity, revitalizing Christian worship and championing human and civil rights and choosing to work with Dr. Martin Luther King. ................

For anyone interested..

Some of this is based in what was discussed earlier in another thread dealing with historical groups in the Radical Reformation and the Reformation - seeing which modern groups would qualify for today (as discussed here and here and here).

Some good books I've read on the issue that you'd probably would find it good to invest in are African Reformation: African Initiated Christianity (By Allan Anderson - who considers the developments of African Initiated Christianity to be JUST as monumental as the Protestant Reformation) - as well as Music in the Life of the African Church ( By Roberta Rose King)......Towards Liturgies that Reconcile: Race and Ritual Among African-American and European-American Protestants by William Scott Haldeman... or Reshaping Protestantism in a Global Context - Page 52 ​

For a good review on the issue, one may wish to consider going online and looking up an article under the name of "The Dunamis Word - What Does 21st Century Holiness Look Like?" . The article is made by a man named Pastor Harvey Burnett. He's a wonderful man of God whom I've always loved talking with. For he's one whom I used to blog with years ago on another site....and he's also very knowledgable of many of the backgrounds concerning the Black Church as well as Church History in general.


To see the ways the Methodist movement impacted the Black Church has always been fascinating to me ......and with the classification of it, I do wonder why it seems to be often neglected.



I shared this with another recently as it concerns the history behind the Black Church - as history of the Black Church (more shared on it in #229 - as well as the history of blacks in the OT/NT in #14 /#16 ) - is a multifaceted reality and not something that's in any way monolithic....especially when considering the dynamic of intercultural connections and splicing of cultures:

• God In America: The Black Church | PBS
• Summary of The History of the Negro Church
• African American Church History - Christian Timelines
• Black Churches, Black Theology and American History - PBS
• Africans in America| Part 3 | Narrative: The Black Church - PBS
• Black Christianity Before the Civil War: Christian History Timeline ...

To me, I always find it amazing when going back and considering the extensive amount of ways that the slaves, in their example, were so in line with the Spirit of how things were done in the Early Church /Ancient Faith.....and what the prophets of the OT/NT preached on when it came to suffering for the Lord/righteousness and looking unto Him for deliverance. The book An Unbroken Circle: Linking Ancient African Christianity to the African-American Experience (more here) is one of the best historical reads present (if not the best) which helps to break that down - by Fr Moses Berry ( curator of the Ozarks Afro-American Heritage Museum and rector of Theotokos “Unexpected Joy” Orthodox Church in Ask Grove, Missouri).

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Upon its publication in 1997, An Unbroken Circle: Linking Ancient African Christianity to the African-American Experience, broke new ground in Orthodox writing. And many people have found this book to be an invaluable resource, both for personal growth and for Orthodox outreach as well as general understanding of the ways the Body of Christ came together....

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But outside of seeing the ways that Blacks were connected to Eastern Christianity, within American culture it often seemed that Black churches had a very distinct categorization from other groups when it came to the ways they lived out their own faith.

Why I Sing Amazing Grace: The African-American Worship ExperIENCE

The History of The Black Church - The Beginning

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[Gxg (G²)]

I have little doubt this isn't their tradition. But even in that, he's a bit over the top.

Tradition doesn't have to be something that happens always - but as it concerns the man, yes....this has happened repeatedly.

And being in churches myself where I've seen others do as he did and more, it's why I was not surprised.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyV5P3x-Z30
Bro Franklin sharabababa - YouTube
BDAY SKANKGIVING - YouTube

And on where the man (Brother Franklin) shared his testimony:

BRO.FRANKLIN TESTIMONY(PART 1) - YouTube

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Now that kind of thing is something I don't need to have in a church I attend - simply because I can't refrain from making certain judgments. Lord forgive me. I find it better to simply keep a distance.

I thought it was going to be the typical "Pentecostal dance". It wasn't.

Sometimes, it's hard not to say anything judgmental on the issue when it comes to seeing the ways others may get excited in ways we're not comfortable with in church.

But on the dance, I've seen other Pentecostal dances similar to it.....

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

Thanks for the book recommendations G2. I really don't know enough (or much at all) about the African-American religious experience, and I'd love to learn more.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Sometimes, it's hard not to say anything judgmental on the issue when it comes to seeing the ways others may get excited in ways we're not comfortable with in church.

But on the dance, I've seen other Pentecostal dances similar to it.....

Yes, I confess, what we are used to and where we come from affects how we think. And it is hard not to judge and put wrong motives on a person - Lord forgive me.

I used to always love the ladies' hats. I never knew anything about "hat wars" or any competitiveness. I used to be (and to a degree probably still am) somewhat oblivious to competitiveness based on style of dress and similar factors. Blissfully unaware, LOL.

It takes a lot to get through my wall, which now makes me realize it really must have been pretty blatant the last time I felt looked down on for being "out of place" - I was just a farm wife with a husband who works as a laborer, and I attended a huge metropolitan "First Baptist Church" and rode the elevator with the senator's father and others of his degree.

Ah well.

But forgive me ... I've been part of a dance team, been in churches where half the congregation gathers at the front during singing and all dance, seen altar dancers, and all kinds of things in between. And yet, it's difficult even with all of that in my background to watch the guys here and not think they might be doing it to draw attention to themselves.

I actually love dancing during worship, but I don't do it in church. Well ... there were a couple of churches I attended that had private little alcoves I managed to find, where I could pray and dance in privacy while the congregation worshiped. That was pretty cool. But I don't do it in front of anyone (except choreographed performances when I was in dance ministry) because I don't want to draw any attention to myself. I fear that if I did do it, my mind would probably wander to what someone who saw me might think, and I don't want my focus to be there. So only God sees me. That is better for my own spiritual state.

 

[sunlover1]

I've noticed that the more formal the service does not equate with what the laity wears. often quite the opposite.
Business suits seem more prevalent in evangelic worship. Oddly enough so does the most casual of dress.
I can't remember ever seeing something as loud as a Hawaiian Shirt until lately in most churches of either form of worship. I think the "look at me' thing is something new for the laity. But then what I call new another may call old.

I tend to wear loud (my daughter says flamboyant) clothing when going about my normal day. In church I take care not to draw attention to myself dressing more reserved. But that's just me.
Now when I pass one particular local African American church I always love to see the hats. They find some really cool hats. Yes, I'd wear one outside of Church. And my daughter would be sooooo embarrassed.

Yes, the hats worn by the older women are precious!
Daughters will be embarrassed one way or another lol.
Go for it!

When I am an old woman I shall wear purple
With a red hat which doesn't go, and doesn't suit me.
And I shall spend my pension on brandy and summer gloves
And satin sandals, and say we've no money for butter.
I shall sit down on the pavement when I'm tired
And gobble up samples in shops and press alarm bells
And run my stick along the public railings
And make up for the sobriety of my youth.
I shall go out in my slippers in the rain
And pick flowers in other people's gardens
And learn to spit.

You can wear terrible shirts and grow more fat
And eat three pounds of sausages at a go
Or only bread and pickle for a week
And hoard pens and pencils and beermats and things in boxes.

But now we must have clothes that keep us dry
And pay our rent and not swear in the street
And set a good example for the children.
We must have friends to dinner and read the papers.

But maybe I ought to practice a little now?
So people who know me are not too shocked and surprised
When suddenly I am old, and start to wear purple.


Jenny Joseph

 

[sunlover1]

Yes, I confess, what we are used to and where we come from affects how we think. And it is hard not to judge and put wrong motives on a person - Lord forgive me.

I used to always love the ladies' hats. I never knew anything about "hat wars" or any competitiveness. I used to be (and to a degree probably still am) somewhat oblivious to competitiveness based on style of dress and similar factors. Blissfully unaware, LOL.

It takes a lot to get through my wall, which now makes me realize it really must have been pretty blatant the last time I felt looked down on for being "out of place" - I was just a farm wife with a husband who works as a laborer, and I attended a huge metropolitan "First Baptist Church" and rode the elevator with the senator's father and others of his degree.

Ah well.

But forgive me ... I've been part of a dance team, been in churches where half the congregation gathers at the front during singing and all dance, seen altar dancers, and all kinds of things in between. And yet, it's difficult even with all of that in my background to watch the guys here and not think they might be doing it to draw attention to themselves.

I actually love dancing during worship, but I don't do it in church. Well ... there were a couple of churches I attended that had private little alcoves I managed to find, where I could pray and dance in privacy while the congregation worshiped. That was pretty cool. But I don't do it in front of anyone (except choreographed performances when I was in dance ministry) because I don't want to draw any attention to myself. I fear that if I did do it, my mind would probably wander to what someone who saw me might think, and I don't want my focus to be there. So only God sees me. That is better for my own spiritual state.

14 Wearing a linen ephod, David was dancing before the Lord with all his might, 15 while he and all Israel were bringing up the ark of the Lord with shouts and the sound of trumpets.

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And these guys are having WAY too much fun to be holy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aveTjkB56pI

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[sunlover1]

The best of intentions...

Ohh lol.

Whatever helps you connect with God...wear that.

Thanks for the book recommendations G2. I really don't know enough (or much at all) about the African-American religious experience, and I'd love to learn more.

YES! Thanks for the research Gxg (G²)
As a person who also loves to research.
A wealth of information.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

I think we just need to find what works for us. I find God in a lot of ways but I appreciate liturgies and things that connect me to God by connecting me with my ancestors in the church. But even the most ancient of liturgies were once new. It's also great to read modern liturgies written by present-day folks, break out a few contemporary hymns, etc.

I find myself a little uncomfortable when ultra-contemporary churches have kind of forgotten the church part. Baptism is less important, communion isn't served or is served without reverence, etc. But those churches are few. In reality, even the most 'hip' of churches still have reverence, just in their own way.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I think we just need to find what works for us. I find God in a lot of ways but I appreciate liturgies and things that connect me to God by connecting me with my ancestors in the church. But even the most ancient of liturgies were once new. It's also great to read modern liturgies written by present-day folks, break out a few contemporary hymns, etc.

I find myself a little uncomfortable when ultra-contemporary churches have kind of forgotten the church part. Baptism is less important, communion isn't served or is served without reverence, etc. But those churches are few. In reality, even the most 'hip' of churches still have reverence, just in their own way.

I'm right there with ya!

This:

I'll Dance like David Danced.. '' Awesome Live Dance worship song" by SALVADOR! - YouTube

Doesn't do it for me like this:

Traditional Catholic Latin Mass of the Angels - YouTube

But, that's me.

 

[Rick Otto]

Originally Posted by Rick Otto

intimidated by a blustering façade...it's intimidating majesty.

Hyperbole is the word that comes to mind most readily.

LOL,... Ok. I will try to remain calm.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Originally Posted by Rick Otto

intimidated by a blustering façade...it's intimidating majesty.
​

LOL,... Ok. I will try to remain calm.

Long slow deep breaths, Mr. Otto.