Sacred formality vs. Casual atmosphere? Effects on worshipfulness?

~Anastasia~

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Gxg (G²);65160138 said:
Sometimes, being authentic isn't always the best thing either..

For an example (and yes, I have no doubt the people were sincere when they did it):

Guy dancing in Church...funny! lol - YouTube

Now that kind of thing is something I don't need to have in a church I attend - simply because I can't refrain from making certain judgments. Lord forgive me. I find it better to simply keep a distance.

I thought it was going to be the typical "Pentecostal dance". It wasn't.
 
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Mama Kidogo

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That's one thing I'm discovering that I really appreciate about the traditional churches.

I visited an EO church and was shown around and had everything explained to me. For the rest of the day, what I had seen and the reasons behind it played in my mind, and served very well to keep my mind even more on the things of God.

I wonder if the "cradle" Christians from those churches know every single significance? Just wondering ... Having more things explained to me than I was able to remember (as well as what I've read recently) gives me a tremendous appreciation for the "why" everything is done and deep symbolism.

Maybe it appeals to me because I have a literary and artistic bent, and symbolism is inherent in so much of the way I think. But ... it's very profound to me, personally.

Let me answer that question I bolded in your post.
No. We are ever learning. We call some things Mysteries for a reasons and at times don't even know answers to questions we can know.

You don't have to be a great scholar to be an Orthodox. I am proof positive.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Gxg (G²);65160208 said:
There are so many ways others in Churches can connect with the Lord..


Then there are fellowships within the Black Church tradition where dancing is a part of their liturgy art - alongside spoken Word, Mime, or Prophetic Art. For some examples of things I have in mind, one can check out the following at K&K Mime...as seen here:

:)

My daughter and I were both part of the dance team at one of our churches. It doesn't exactly match the styles here - somewhat mime or interpretive, but with much more formal moves consisting much of the dance. Some performances were almost all "acting" though. Many songs would be done more in the style of the "Dunamis" you showed, but with more movement - I noticed they were restricted to a fairly small stage with speakers, stairs, and more restricting them. Some of our clothing was very similar to Dunamis.

The Eddie James I can't really relate to at all, but I'm sure it would appeal more to the youth (or someone younger than I anyway). ;)

And Ron Kenoly - I love. I have some of his CDs. Most of it is the kind of music I like to listen to while I'm busy - helps me focus my mind on how good God is while I work.

We all surely have all kinds of tastes, and music appeals to us in different ways, as do other aspects of worship. It's interesting.

I actually really miss the dance but I'm not the kind of person who is comfortable going in front of the church and just dancing during worship. I see a lot of that, but it's just not me. Sometimes it distracts me when others do it. I miss the performance part, when it's intentional and for ministry. And I enjoy dancing in worship, but I keep that kind of worship alone, just me and the Lord. If anyone else is around, I feel I am performing somehow for them, and that's not where I want my thoughts and motives to lie.

Thanks for giving me things to think about. :)
 
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~Anastasia~

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Let me answer that question I bolded in your post.
No. We are ever learning. We call some things Mysteries for a reasons and at times don't even know answers to questions we can know.

You don't have to be a great scholar to be an Orthodox. I am proof positive.

Thanks for the reply, MamaK.

And maybe I got a bigger piece than I realize - or maybe not. Having heard the significance of things about the Communion and the icons - was a tremendous amount of symbolism. I don't know how much of the overall that represents, and I know I haven't heard all about just those two things, but ... everything I hear about EO is always followed by, "and this is the reason: it symbolizes ... " and that just really appeals to me, that everything done and everything seen point to God in some way.
 
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sunlover1

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I'm almost afraid to say this, but...

we seem to be wandering now and yet not giving up, so I'm wondering about this aspect of the matter:

Is it possible that those who are used to, and happier with, simplicity overdo the "pomp and intimidation" talk? As one who has experienced both kinds of churches--and finds something uplifting in both kinds of worship--I do not get glassy-eyed or feel deeply moved just by the liturgical worship, vestments, and so on.

We live in a world where even meter readers and security cops wear uniforms, and there is more ceremony in a Super Bowl pre-game show than in any church service I've ever attended. Most of this worship format has an historical explanation, and is dignified, and that's about all.

The idea that it "intimidates" the poor folk, by the way, is just silly. So what do you think? Is some of this taken too far...often by those who simply aren't used to it and don't know what all the parts mean?
Forgive me if I misunderstand the question, but, even though long flowing
robes and all of the rituals that go along with a RC mass is "showy" to me,
it's not real intimidating because I was raised with it.
Had I not been raised in it, I'd be intimidated. Priests/cardinals etc. It all
looks so official and scary if you're not used to it.

Showy:
If dressing a certain way:
usastpatsmitrecs0.jpg

is somehow a "I'm wearing this because I'm super important" thing,
then it's "showy" imo.
If it's part of a "CULTURAL" piece, otoh, then it's a cultural thing,
and we should respect each others cultures.
God made that clear with the Moses and Miriam story.

Roman, Greek,... have a different culture than France, Africa...
etc.
In my church, for instance, my pastor might show up in a caftain,
and it would have nothing to do with his STATUS, (He doesn't/hasnt..
just using an example)

As far as "pomp and circumstance" (and I use those words because
they're the most descriptive to my meaning) I hate it. Regardless of
if it's a RC church or if it's a Christian Reformed church, I just don't
care for that. To ME it's stuffy and programmed.
I need an atmosphere where God can show out.


SN
(This part isn't for you Albion)
Before anyone mocks my OPINION
please don't bother, you all have made it clear
that the kind of worship service I prefer is a mockery..
to you.

I'm not MOCKING your type of worship, I'm merely sharing
my own preferences and thoughts.


Is "fear based teaching and leadership structure" characteristic of the churches of the one kind but absent from those of the other? I don't think that's an argument that can be sustained.
Anyone familiar with the Protestant Reformed church?
Well I wouldn't be welcome in one. And if I did go into one,
I'd be skeered.
:p
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Btw, would you say this kind of dynamic is actually embraced by any kind of church(es) today?

Unfortunately, in at least one way, this sort of dynamic was lost when certain bishops in the early church began forbidding agape-meals. It seems that originally, the liturgy consisted of the Eucharistic formal service at the beginning, followed by a community meal (patterned after the Jewish Shabbat meal on Friday nights, where the formal, ritual consumption of bread and wine is followed by a more casual full meal). It's unclear if the agape-meals were eaten immediately following the liturgical service or if they met again later in the day, although I suspect practices varied from region to region. Anyhow, that community meal seems to have been the chief symbolic act of giving back, first to Christians, and second to the wider community, which was followed throughout the week through acts of community service, especially in times of famine and plague (Wayne Meek's The First Urban Christians and Rodney Stark's Cities of God are probably the best readable accounts of early Christianity's growth through community service and charitable giving).

When these agape-feasts following the Eucharistic liturgy seemed to grow out of hand into more bawdy feasting and became associated with more charismatic, anti-catholic sects within the wider Christianity community (like the Montanists), the official church leaders (the bishops) began to crack down on them. This was especially true in areas where the connection between the Eucharist and the agape-meal was severed, as it was by Cyprian's time (mid-thirty century). They remained around in places prominent enough that they were condemned at the local Council of Laodicea (364), although they show up from time to time in later records.

The eastern Christian communities, Orthodox and Oriental, have retained some purely symbolic aspects of the agape. After the bread and wine have been consumed in the Eucharist and the liturgy is over, the excess bread is distributed to the people as they leave church (called the Bread of Peace, or Pax Bread). In Ethiopian services I've attended, there is some feasting to which I- clearly not Ethiopian Orthodox- was invited following their Easter Monday services. I'm not an expert on contemporary practices, but I've heard that this may stand in direct continuity with those ancient practices of agape going back to Jerusalem.

Monasteries that take in visitors are probably the best examples of this practice being carried out in the form of meals. At Mount Athos, for instance (a mountainous peninsula of northern Greece with a collection of twenty-some-odd monasteries representing churches across the Orthodox world, and one of the chief spiritual centers of Orthodoxy), visitors are invited to services in the morning and evening which are followed with breakfast and dinner during which Scripture is read. The meals are delicious and hearty but simple and the only cost is an administrative fee for admission to Athos (about twenty dollars for three days room and board).

The only revival I personally know of is that at Grace Lutheran Church in San Diego (LCMS) and an ELCA church I attended a few times in either Carlisle or Dillsburg PA. In the former, the parish regularly gathers its offering of food (usually in the form of sandwiches made earlier that morning by parishioners or the night before with bread that, unleavened, is also used for the Eucharist) and spends Sunday afternoon going into the lower income parts of San Diego to hold services where sandwiches and soup (not really suitable for offering in the middle of the service, you understand) are distributed. In Pennsylvania, the ELCA church did something similar at the conclusion of a canned food charity drive, where a symbolic number of the cans (there were many that couldn't fit) were placed in and around the chancel (that area where the altar stands) before they would be denoted.

Moravians (the Reformed Hussite denomination from Bohemia) and, following their lead, the Methodists head Love Feasts at which they studied the scriptures in small groups over a meal, and the Methodist practice has involved the small group Bible study now omnipresent in evangelical circles (as well as Lutherans, Catholics, Anglicans, Presbyterians- we all have the Methodists to thank for those). However, despite the name, I don't think there is any connection to either the Eucharist or to charitable giving or any historic connection to the ancient agape-feasts, so it really doesn't count as an example (despite being a good practice).

I'm sure some Catholic parishes do similar things, since the Catholic Church is, besides the largest Christian denomination, also the largest charitable organization in the history of the world.

These, in my mind, are just first steps in the recovery of an authentic practice of the early church. The full connection between offering, Eucharistic, meal, and giving- the full four-fold pattern- isn't entirely evident in any of the contemporary examples I've given, however wonderfully generous they are. We're just beginning to see a scholarly appreciation of the role of this fourfold pattern in the rapid rise of Christianity, and I hope that that appreciation will lead churches to readopt the practice. I think it also helps cut across the formal/casual divine in the same way a Jewish Shabbat service does. It also offers time for questions on the liturgy that just happened in a casual atmosphere that affirms both casual and formal forms of community bonding. I'd love to see a full, hearty meal accompanied by readings, teachings, and song follow every smells-and-bells high church liturgy.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Unfortunately, in at least one way, this sort of dynamic was lost when certain bishops in the early church began forbidding agape-meals. It seems that originally, the liturgy consisted of the Eucharistic formal service at the beginning, followed by a community meal (patterned after the Jewish Shabbat meal on Friday nights, where the formal, ritual consumption of bread and wine is followed by a more casual full meal). It's unclear if the agape-meals were eaten immediately following the liturgical service or if they met again later in the day, although I suspect practices varied from region to region. Anyhow, that community meal seems to have been the chief symbolic act of giving back, first to Christians, and second to the wider community, which was followed throughout the week through acts of community service, especially in times of famine and plague (Wayne Meek's The First Urban Christians and Rodney Stark's Cities of God are probably the best readable accounts of early Christianity's growth through community service and charitable giving).

When these agape-feasts following the Eucharistic liturgy seemed to grow out of hand into more bawdy feasting and became associated with more charismatic, anti-catholic sects within the wider Christianity community (like the Montanists), the official church leaders (the bishops) began to crack down on them. This was especially true in areas where the connection between the Eucharist and the agape-meal was severed, as it was by Cyprian's time (mid-thirty century). They remained around in places prominent enough that they were condemned at the local Council of Laodicea (364), although they show up from time to time in later records.

The eastern Christian communities, Orthodox and Oriental, have retained some purely symbolic aspects of the agape. After the bread and wine have been consumed in the Eucharist and the liturgy is over, the excess bread is distributed to the people as they leave church (called the Bread of Peace, or Pax Bread). In Ethiopian services I've attended, there is some feasting to which I- clearly not Ethiopian Orthodox- was invited following their Easter Monday services. I'm not an expert on contemporary practices, but I've heard that this may stand in direct continuity with those ancient practices of agape going back to Jerusalem.

Monasteries that take in visitors are probably the best examples of this practice being carried out in the form of meals. At Mount Athos, for instance (a mountainous peninsula of northern Greece with a collection of twenty-some-odd monasteries representing churches across the Orthodox world, and one of the chief spiritual centers of Orthodoxy), visitors are invited to services in the morning and evening which are followed with breakfast and dinner during which Scripture is read. The meals are delicious and hearty but simple and the only cost is an administrative fee for admission to Athos (about twenty dollars for three days room and board).

The only revival I personally know of is that at Grace Lutheran Church in San Diego (LCMS) and an ELCA church I attended a few times in either Carlisle or Dillsburg PA. In the former, the parish regularly gathers its offering of food (usually in the form of sandwiches made earlier that morning by parishioners or the night before with bread that, unleavened, is also used for the Eucharist) and spends Sunday afternoon going into the lower income parts of San Diego to hold services where sandwiches and soup (not really suitable for offering in the middle of the service, you understand) are distributed. In Pennsylvania, the ELCA church did something similar at the conclusion of a canned food charity drive, where a symbolic number of the cans (there were many that couldn't fit) were placed in and around the chancel (that area where the altar stands) before they would be denoted.

Moravians (the Reformed Hussite denomination from Bohemia) and, following their lead, the Methodists head Love Feasts at which they studied the scriptures in small groups over a meal, and the Methodist practice has involved the small group Bible study now omnipresent in evangelical circles (as well as Lutherans, Catholics, Anglicans, Presbyterians- we all have the Methodists to thank for those). However, despite the name, I don't think there is any connection to either the Eucharist or to charitable giving or any historic connection to the ancient agape-feasts, so it really doesn't count as an example (despite being a good practice).

I'm sure some Catholic parishes do similar things, since the Catholic Church is, besides the largest Christian denomination, also the largest charitable organization in the history of the world.

These, in my mind, are just first steps in the recovery of an authentic practice of the early church. The full connection between offering, Eucharistic, meal, and giving- the full four-fold pattern- isn't entirely evident in any of the contemporary examples I've given, however wonderfully generous they are. We're just beginning to see a scholarly appreciation of the role of this fourfold pattern in the rapid rise of Christianity, and I hope that that appreciation will lead churches to readopt the practice. I think it also helps cut across the formal/casual divine in the same way a Jewish Shabbat service does. It also offers time for questions on the liturgy that just happened in a casual atmosphere that affirms both casual and formal forms of community bonding. I'd love to see a full, hearty meal accompanied by readings, teachings, and song follow every smells-and-bells high church liturgy.

Thank you so much for explaining. I had not heard any of this, and I can really appreciate the connection. I'll have to think about it some more. :)

It reminds me of our practice when I attached myself to a school of ministry. We were interconnected in so many ways and did much together, but we met at least once a week to share a meal. Many of the students came from all over the world, and live very simple and frugal lives. Back then I was quite "wealthy" compared to them, and the first time one girl was so delighted at some cookies I brought, I made it a point to always bring as much nice food as I could, since they could not buy it for themselves, and we made sure they got all the extras too. It was a wonderful practice and it felt so good to be able to contribute to brothers and sisters that loved Jesus so deeply.

I MISS having a church!!! Although they would have to be a poor congregation indeed that I could contribute for now. Still, we usually always have something to offer to others. :)

Thank you again for the info.
 
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Albion

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Forgive me if I misunderstand the question, but, even though long flowing
robes and all of the rituals that go along with a RC mass is "showy" to me,
it's not real intimidating because I was raised with it.
Had I not been raised in it, I'd be intimidated.

Do you think you'd be more intimidated if you had been poor rather than, say, middle class? That was part of the assertion that I questioned.

It all looks so official and scary if you're not used to it.

"Official," yes--and bear in mind that this is a bishop (actually a pope) that you are showing us for your example. Would an ordinary parish priest strike fear into the average viewer for wearing a robe not a lot more elegant than a graduation gown? That's closer to what we're talking about...and I doubt it.

In my church, for instance, my pastor might show up in a caftain,
and it would have nothing to do with his STATUS, (He doesn't/hasnt..
just using an example)
If I were asked, I'd guess that that attire would be as "intimidating" (if either is intimidating at all) as a cassock.

Anyone familiar with the Protestant Reformed church?
Yes.

Well I wouldn't be welcome in one. And if I did go into one,
I'd be skeered.
:p

How come?
 
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Mary of Bethany

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Unfortunately, in at least one way, this sort of dynamic was lost when certain bishops in the early church began forbidding agape-meals. It seems that originally, the liturgy consisted of the Eucharistic formal service at the beginning, followed by a community meal (patterned after the Jewish Shabbat meal on Friday nights, where the formal, ritual consumption of bread and wine is followed by a more casual full meal). It's unclear if the agape-meals were eaten immediately following the liturgical service or if they met again later in the day, although I suspect practices varied from region to region. Anyhow, that community meal seems to have been the chief symbolic act of giving back, first to Christians, and second to the wider community, which was followed throughout the week through acts of community service, especially in times of famine and plague (Wayne Meek's The First Urban Christians and Rodney Stark's Cities of God are probably the best readable accounts of early Christianity's growth through community service and charitable giving).

When these agape-feasts following the Eucharistic liturgy seemed to grow out of hand into more bawdy feasting and became associated with more charismatic, anti-catholic sects within the wider Christianity community (like the Montanists), the official church leaders (the bishops) began to crack down on them. This was especially true in areas where the connection between the Eucharist and the agape-meal was severed, as it was by Cyprian's time (mid-thirty century). They remained around in places prominent enough that they were condemned at the local Council of Laodicea (364), although they show up from time to time in later records.

The eastern Christian communities, Orthodox and Oriental, have retained some purely symbolic aspects of the agape. After the bread and wine have been consumed in the Eucharist and the liturgy is over, the excess bread is distributed to the people as they leave church (called the Bread of Peace, or Pax Bread). In Ethiopian services I've attended, there is some feasting to which I- clearly not Ethiopian Orthodox- was invited following their Easter Monday services. I'm not an expert on contemporary practices, but I've heard that this may stand in direct continuity with those ancient practices of agape going back to Jerusalem.

Monasteries that take in visitors are probably the best examples of this practice being carried out in the form of meals. At Mount Athos, for instance (a mountainous peninsula of northern Greece with a collection of twenty-some-odd monasteries representing churches across the Orthodox world, and one of the chief spiritual centers of Orthodoxy), visitors are invited to services in the morning and evening which are followed with breakfast and dinner during which Scripture is read. The meals are delicious and hearty but simple and the only cost is an administrative fee for admission to Athos (about twenty dollars for three days room and board).

The only revival I personally know of is that at Grace Lutheran Church in San Diego (LCMS) and an ELCA church I attended a few times in either Carlisle or Dillsburg PA. In the former, the parish regularly gathers its offering of food (usually in the form of sandwiches made earlier that morning by parishioners or the night before with bread that, unleavened, is also used for the Eucharist) and spends Sunday afternoon going into the lower income parts of San Diego to hold services where sandwiches and soup (not really suitable for offering in the middle of the service, you understand) are distributed. In Pennsylvania, the ELCA church did something similar at the conclusion of a canned food charity drive, where a symbolic number of the cans (there were many that couldn't fit) were placed in and around the chancel (that area where the altar stands) before they would be denoted.

Moravians (the Reformed Hussite denomination from Bohemia) and, following their lead, the Methodists head Love Feasts at which they studied the scriptures in small groups over a meal, and the Methodist practice has involved the small group Bible study now omnipresent in evangelical circles (as well as Lutherans, Catholics, Anglicans, Presbyterians- we all have the Methodists to thank for those). However, despite the name, I don't think there is any connection to either the Eucharist or to charitable giving or any historic connection to the ancient agape-feasts, so it really doesn't count as an example (despite being a good practice).

I'm sure some Catholic parishes do similar things, since the Catholic Church is, besides the largest Christian denomination, also the largest charitable organization in the history of the world.

These, in my mind, are just first steps in the recovery of an authentic practice of the early church. The full connection between offering, Eucharistic, meal, and giving- the full four-fold pattern- isn't entirely evident in any of the contemporary examples I've given, however wonderfully generous they are. We're just beginning to see a scholarly appreciation of the role of this fourfold pattern in the rapid rise of Christianity, and I hope that that appreciation will lead churches to readopt the practice. I think it also helps cut across the formal/casual divine in the same way a Jewish Shabbat service does. It also offers time for questions on the liturgy that just happened in a casual atmosphere that affirms both casual and formal forms of community bonding. I'd love to see a full, hearty meal accompanied by readings, teachings, and song follow every smells-and-bells high church liturgy.

In our small parish (Orthodox Church in America), we have a community pot-luck meal after every Divine Liturgy, even on weekdays. Our priest has commented that he feels it is the second most important (after the Eucharist, of course) time together as a community.

Yes, we distribute blessed bread (antidoron) to anyone present, at the end of the Liturgy.

And the feast you mentioned at the Ethiopian parish - it is normal in any Orthodox parish that I know of to have an Agape Feast after the midnight Pascha Liturgy. We all bring baskets of food (usually full of meats and dairy that we haven't had for 2 months ^_^ ) and after the Liturgy they are blessed and we all have a Feast together. And then, in our parish at least, we come back together on Pascha afternoon for Agape Vespers and a picnic.

These meals aren't really tied in to the larger community, except for visitors. We have several community charities we give to/volunteer with in our local area.

Mary
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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In our small parish (Orthodox Church in America), we have a community pot-luck meal after every Divine Liturgy, even on weekdays. Our priest has commented that he feels it is the second most important (after the Eucharist, of course) time together as a community.

Yes, we distribute blessed bread (antidoron) to anyone present, at the end of the Liturgy.

And the feast you mentioned at the Ethiopian parish - it is normal in any Orthodox parish that I know of to have an Agape Feast after the midnight Pascha Liturgy. We all bring baskets of food (usually full of meats and dairy that we haven't had for 2 months ^_^ ) and after the Liturgy they are blessed and we all have a Feast together. And then, in our parish at least, we come back together on Pascha afternoon for Agape Vespers and a picnic.

These meals aren't really tied in to the larger community, except for visitors. We have several community charities we give to/volunteer with in our local area.

Mary

That's awesome, thanks for letting me know. I was familiar with the post-Easter feast because I've shared in them, but I don't have any weekly experience with Orthodox parishes.
 
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GratiaCorpusChristi

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Thank you so much for explaining. I had not heard any of this, and I can really appreciate the connection. I'll have to think about it some more. :)

It reminds me of our practice when I attached myself to a school of ministry. We were interconnected in so many ways and did much together, but we met at least once a week to share a meal. Many of the students came from all over the world, and live very simple and frugal lives. Back then I was quite "wealthy" compared to them, and the first time one girl was so delighted at some cookies I brought, I made it a point to always bring as much nice food as I could, since they could not buy it for themselves, and we made sure they got all the extras too. It was a wonderful practice and it felt so good to be able to contribute to brothers and sisters that loved Jesus so deeply.

I MISS having a church!!! Although they would have to be a poor congregation indeed that I could contribute for now. Still, we usually always have something to offer to others. :)

Thank you again for the info.

That's wonderful!

My church has a Bible study between its two services, and once a month that becomes a fellowship breakfast. We also have the various small groups (20-somethings, youth, men's, women's, etc.) do each of the dinners we hold after the Wednesday evening services we keep throughout Advent and Lent.
 
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sunlover1

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Do you think you'd be more intimidated if you had been poor rather than, say, middle class? That was part of the assertion that I questioned.
Hmm, I can't see why financial status would matter.
I mean, any more than normal.
The dress where i attend is anywhere from casual to
formal, with the pastor normally wearing a suit, but
not a dress shirt. If someone super poor were to come
in, I don't think he'd feel underdressed, but in most
churches in my area, they'd feel underdressed.
But I'm not sure how that would make them feel
intimidated.

"Official," yes--and bear in mind that this is a bishop (actually a pope) that you are showing us for your example. Would an ordinary parish priest strike fear into the average viewer for wearing a robe not a lot more elegant than a graduation gown? That's closer to what we're talking about...and I doubt it.
Do you think that would depend on what that priest was doing?
If I were asked, I'd guess that that attire would be as "intimidating" (if either is intimidating at all) as a cassock.
A caftan is just a cultural garb, and carries no 'authoritative weight",
unlike the picture I posted. But maybe it would be intimidating to some.
Just something to consider.
I don't care what folks wear to preach in.
IMO, anything is fine if it covers up your body.
JTB, what did that guy wear?
:p
How come?
Because I'm not good enough and I wont pretend to be.
Skeered? Just the peer pressure of knowing I don't meausre
up. I was pretty much kidding with the "skeered" comment,
it was for effect. ^_^
 
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Albion

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Hmm, I can't see why financial status would matter.
Me either. But that is the statement to which I replied, i.e. that vestments and ceremony intimidate the poor. I don't see any reason to think that being poor would cause that reaction, but that it wouldn't affect anyone else. And, of course, no evidence was offered to show that it does.


The dress where i attend is anywhere from casual to
formal, with the pastor normally wearing a suit, but
not a dress shirt. If someone super poor were to come
in, I don't think he'd feel underdressed, but in most
churches in my area, they'd feel underdressed.
But I'm not sure how that would make them feel
intimidated.
I agree.


Do you think that would depend on what that priest was doing?
Not particularly. I can't see why moving around the altar, bowing, making the sign of the cross, etc. would appear more intimidating than witnessing some minister dressed in street clothers suddenly burst forth with shouts of gibberish or running across the stage shouting his sermon.

A caftan is just a cultural garb, and carries no 'authoritative weight",
Maybe that's the point. A chasuble doesn't carry any special magic with it either. It's what any Roman would have worn when the church was founded.

But yes, if I were to visit any unfamiliar church and discover the minister wearing a caftan, I would think it weird...and I would conclude that it related to his office or importance. Unless, that is, everyone else in the place were wearing caftans also, in which case I'd consider them all to be in some sort of cult. ;)
 
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sunlover1

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Not particularly. I can't see why moving around the altar, bowing, making the sign of the cross, etc. would appear more intimidating than witnessing some minister dressed ordinarily suddenly burst forth with shouts of gibberish or running across the stage screaming his sermon.
Yikes.
I must have missed that comparison.

But yes, if I were to visit any unfamiliar church and discover the minister wearing a caftan, I would think it weird...and I would conclude that it related to his office or importance. Unless everyone else in the place were wearing them also, in which I'd consider them all to be in some sort of cult. ;)
[/QUOTE]
Sometimes members will wear caftans.
African Americans do that sometimes,
Just as sometimes Americans will wear
Hawaiian garb.
My pastor has never worn either.
 
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Albion

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Sometimes members will wear caftans.
African Americans do that sometimes,
Just as sometimes Americans will wear
Hawaiian garb.
My pastor has never worn either.
Well, you asked about the pastor hypothetically wearing one, and if I were to witness that during a worship service, I certainly would think it was done for some special purpose--which indeed would be the case.
 
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Mama Kidogo

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I've noticed that the more formal the service does not equate with what the laity wears. often quite the opposite.
Business suits seem more prevalent in evangelic worship. Oddly enough so does the most casual of dress.
I can't remember ever seeing something as loud as a Hawaiian Shirt until lately in most churches of either form of worship. I think the "look at me' thing is something new for the laity. But then what I call new another may call old.

I tend to wear loud (my daughter says flamboyant) clothing when going about my normal day. In church I take care not to draw attention to myself dressing more reserved. But that's just me.
Now when I pass one particular local African American church I always love to see the hats. They find some really cool hats. Yes, I'd wear one outside of Church. And my daughter would be sooooo embarrassed.^_^
 
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