Sacraments

[Xeno.of.athens]

In Catholic teaching there are seven sacraments that are recognised and performed by the Church. These are

1. Baptism
2. Confirmation
3. The Holy Eucharist/Communion
4. Reconciliation/Confession
5. Marriage
6. Ordination
7. Anointing of the sick/Last Rites

Nearly all Christian churches practise baptism and Communion, though some do not. Nearly all also practise marriage, but many Protestant churches practise it not as a sacrament but as something else. Confession is practised in the ancient churches but only a few Protestant churches practise it. The same is true of confirmation - which in the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox traditions is named differently and is often practised at the time of baptism. Nearly all churches have some kind of ordination. Last rites is not so common among Protestant churches.

There is serious theology behind the sacraments.

What do protestants think marriage is, if it is not thought of as a sacrament? And ordination? Does your denomination have something akin to confession and if so is it sacramental in any way? And what of last rites?

 

[Paidiske]

What do protestants think marriage is, if it is not thought of as a sacrament?

A "state of life."

And ordination?

Similarly, we would say a state of life. The reason Anglicans do not count ordination a sacrament (although we take it very seriously) is that there is no "visible sign or ceremony" given by Christ.

Does your denomination have something akin to confession and if so is it sacramental in any way? And what of last rites?

We have confession, although we don't consider it a sacrament. And last rites as we do them are really three things done together; confession and absolution, communion, and anointing. Although we consider communion a sacrament, "last rites" as a package are not a separate or another sacrament (nor is the anointing, or extreme unction, in itself a sacrament).

 

[Maria Billingsley]

In Catholic teaching there are seven sacraments that are recognised and performed by the Church. These are

1. Baptism
2. Confirmation
3. The Holy Eucharist/Communion
4. Reconciliation/Confession
5. Marriage
6. Ordination
7. Anointing of the sick/Last Rites

Nearly all Christian churches practise baptism and Communion, though some do not. Nearly all also practise marriage, but many Protestant churches practise it not as a sacrament but as something else. Confession is practised in the ancient churches but only a few Protestant churches practise it. The same is true of confirmation - which in the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox traditions is named differently and is often practised at the time of baptism. Nearly all churches have some kind of ordination. Last rites is not so common among Protestant churches.

There is serious theology behind the sacraments.

What do protestants think marriage is, if it is not thought of as a sacrament? And ordination? Does your denomination have something akin to confession and if so is it sacramental in any way? And what of last rites?

I believe it starts with defining sacrament . Is it a visible symbol of God's grace or is it a channel for achieving God's grace. Rituals have meanings and those meanings can be man made or God ordained.
Blessings

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I believe it starts with defining sacrament . Is it a visible symbol of God's grace or is it a channel for achieving God's grace. Rituals have meanings and those meanings can be man made or God ordained.
Blessings

The Glossary of the Catechism of the Catholic Church defines a sacrament thus:

A sacrament is an efficacious sign of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church by which divine life is dispensed to us through the work of the Holy Spirit.​

 

[Jonaitis]

I agree with Maria, the term sacrament means different things to different people, and may be one of the reasons we don't associate the other five as sacramental signs. It is best if you were to compare the different ways we see the term sacrament first.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I agree with Maria, the term sacrament means different things to different people, and may be one of the reasons we don't associate the other five as sacramental signs. It is best if you were to compare the different ways we see the term sacrament first.

I thought I did that when I gave the definition ...

A sacrament is an efficacious sign of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church by which divine life is dispensed to us through the work of the Holy Spirit.​

 

[Jonaitis]

I thought I did that when I gave the definition ...

I only saw your definition.

 

[concretecamper]

In Catholic teaching there are seven sacraments that are recognised and performed by the Church. These are

1. Baptism
2. Confirmation
3. The Holy Eucharist/Communion
4. Reconciliation/Confession
5. Marriage
6. Ordination
7. Anointing of the sick/Last Rites

Nearly all Christian churches practise baptism and Communion, though some do not. Nearly all also practise marriage, but many Protestant churches practise it not as a sacrament but as something else. Confession is practised in the ancient churches but only a few Protestant churches practise it. The same is true of confirmation - which in the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox traditions is named differently and is often practised at the time of baptism. Nearly all churches have some kind of ordination. Last rites is not so common among Protestant churches.

There is serious theology behind the sacraments.

What do protestants think marriage is, if it is not thought of as a sacrament? And ordination? Does your denomination have something akin to confession and if so is it sacramental in any way? And what of last rites?

The Sacramental system, the Sacramental way of life is a big "T" Tradition of His Church.

I would surmise that is the biggest rub.

 

[RileyG]

Baptism and Communion are the only ones that have any "physical signs" connected to them according to Protestants. Some Protestants see Ordination, Marriage, and Confirmation as religious rites.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Baptism and Communion are the only ones that have any "physical signs" connected to them according to Protestants. Some Protestants see Ordination, Marriage, and Confirmation as religious rites.

Protestantism is various so it is hard to give an account of what protestants believe because they believe differently according to denomination and according to tradition.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

THE SACRAMENT OF CONFIRMATION

1285 Baptism, the Eucharist, and the sacrament of Confirmation together constitute the "sacraments of Christian initiation," whose unity must be safeguarded. It must be explained to the faithful that the reception of the sacrament of Confirmation is necessary for the completion of baptismal grace.88 For "by the sacrament of Confirmation, [the baptized] are more perfectly bound to the Church and are enriched with a special strength of the Holy Spirit. Hence they are, as true witnesses of Christ, more strictly obliged to spread and defend the faith by word and deed."89​

88 Cf. Roman Ritual, Rite of Confirmation (OC), Introduction 1.
89 LG 11; Cf. OC, Introduction 2.

The Catechism of the Council of Trent says:

CCT 766 First comes Baptism, which is the gate, as it were, to all the other Sacraments, and by which we are born again unto Christ. The next is Confirmation, by which we grow up and are strengthened in the grace of God; for, as St. Augustine observes, to the Apostles who had already received Baptism, the Redeemer said:

"Stay you in the city till you be endued with power from on high."​

The third is the Eucharist, that true bread from heaven which nourishes and sustains our souls to eternal life, according to these words of the Saviour:

My flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.​

The fourth is Penance, through which lost health is recovered after we have been wounded by sin. Next is Extreme Unction, which obliterates the remains of sin and invigorates the powers of the soul; for speaking of this Sacrament St. James says:

If he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.​

Then follows Holy Orders, by which power is given to exercise perpetually in the Church the public administration of the Sacraments and to perform all the sacred functions. The last is Matrimony, instituted to the end that, by means of the legitimate and holy union of man and woman, children may be procreated and religiously educated for the service of God, and for the preservation of the human race.​

 

[Philip_B]

I have been busy today with other things but I flagged this thread to come back to.

I am not sure why the distinction has been drawn between Catholics and Protestants, without regard for the great depth of understanding that the East brings to this subject.

On one level, I am comfortable with the notion of the 2 Dominical Sacraments, and the 5 Commonly called sacraments. The RCC has always been keen to document and legislate things more clearly than others.

For me however the sacrament is a sign, and signs generally declare something (like Train Station, Wherever Town, Historic Site) or they provide directions in one way or another (like --> London 45 miles, Do not Litter, North). So when we look at these seven actions they all point or declare or both. However, there is much more in life that points and declares. The act of charity may point us in the direction of the love of God, the Sunrise may declare the Glory of God.

The Christian life is called to be sacramental. We are all on a sacramental journey.

In a sense, my problem is not that seven is too many, but rather that it is not enough.

I don't really know what protestants think, firstly because they are not monochrome, and secondly because I do not consider myself to be one. Make of that what you will.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I have been busy today with other things but I flagged this thread to come back to.

I am not sure why the distinction has been drawn between Catholics and Protestants, without regard for the great depth of understanding that the East brings to this subject.

On one level, I am comfortable with the notion of the 2 Dominical Sacraments, and the 5 Commonly called sacraments. The RCC has always been keen to document and legislate things more clearly than others.

For me however the sacrament is a sign, and signs generally declare something (like Train Station, Wherever Town, Historic Site) or they provide directions in one way or another (like --> London 45 miles, Do not Litter, North). So when we look at these seven actions they all point or declare or both. However, there is much more in life that points and declares. The act of charity may point us in the direction of the love of God, the Sunrise may declare the Glory of God.

The Christian life is called to be sacramental. We are all on a sacramental journey.

In a sense, my problem is not that seven is too many, but rather that it is not enough.

I don't really know what protestants think, firstly because they are not monochrome, and secondly because I do not consider myself to be one. Make of that what you will.

I believe that sacraments are called signs in the sense that a miracle is a sign of God's presence rather than in the sense that a bit of text on a placard is a sign.

 

[Philip_B]

I believe that sacraments are called signs in the sense that a miracle is a sign of God's presence rather than in the sense that a bit of text on a placard is a sign.

However, surely the point of John referring to the great seven events as signs is because he wants us to know that they are declaring and they are pointing us in the right direction.

 

[PloverWing]

Interestingly, our priest referred to marriage and ordination as sacraments in his sermon this morning. That got me to looking at the catechism in the BCP for the Episcopal Church. This may be one of those places where the Episcopal Church in the US is a little closer to Rome than the Anglican churches in some other countries.

In true Anglican fashion, our catechism goes for a sort of muddy middle ground. After discussing the sacraments of Baptism and Communion, the catechism has:

"Q: What other sacramental rites evolved in the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

A: Other sacramental rites which evolved in the Church include confirmation, ordination, holy matrimony, reconciliation of a penitent, and unction.

Q: How do they differ from the two sacraments of the Gospel?

A: Although they are means of grace, they are not necessary for all persons in the same way that Baptism and the Eucharist are."

So, "sacramental rites", rather than "sacraments"; still, "means of grace".

I note that the five "sacramental rites" wouldn't qualify as sacraments under the Catholic definition in post #4, "A sacrament is an efficacious sign of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church by which divine life is dispensed to us through the work of the Holy Spirit." Part of what sets them apart is that they "evolved in the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit", rather than having been directly instituted by Christ. The Catholic definition was unexpected to me, actually; surely Catholics, like Anglicans, are open to doctrines and practices being developed over time in the life of the church. @Xeno.of.athens , do you have any insights here?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

However, surely the point of John referring to the great seven events as signs is because he wants us to know that they are declaring and they are pointing us in the right direction.

In the gospel saint John sets forth seven miracles as signs of Christ's nature in the incarnation which saint John describes in the first chapter.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Interestingly, our priest referred to marriage and ordination as sacraments in his sermon this morning. That got me to looking at the catechism in the BCP for the Episcopal Church. This may be one of those places where the Episcopal Church in the US is a little closer to Rome than the Anglican churches in some other countries.

In true Anglican fashion, our catechism goes for a sort of muddy middle ground. After discussing the sacraments of Baptism and Communion, the catechism has:

"Q: What other sacramental rites evolved in the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

A: Other sacramental rites which evolved in the Church include confirmation, ordination, holy matrimony, reconciliation of a penitent, and unction.

Q: How do they differ from the two sacraments of the Gospel?

A: Although they are means of grace, they are not necessary for all persons in the same way that Baptism and the Eucharist are."

So, "sacramental rites", rather than "sacraments"; still, "means of grace".

I note that the five "sacramental rites" wouldn't qualify as sacraments under the Catholic definition in post #4, "A sacrament is an efficacious sign of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church by which divine life is dispensed to us through the work of the Holy Spirit." Part of what sets them apart is that they "evolved in the Church under the guidance of the Holy Spirit", rather than having been directly instituted by Christ. The Catholic definition was unexpected to me, actually; surely Catholics, like Anglicans, are open to doctrines and practices being developed over time in the life of the church. @Xeno.of.athens , do you have any insights here?

The development of doctrine with the passage of time and increased knowledge of the scriptures and traditions of the church is a fundamental part of Catholic teaching. The Church is not stagnant, she learns and grows always onward to maturity in Christ. That is how it should be.

 

[RileyG]

Protestantism is various so it is hard to give an account of what protestants believe because they believe differently according to denomination and according to tradition.

This is correct. Some see Baptism and Holy Communion as only ordinances that are symbolic for the believer. Such as Baptists etc