Sabbath observance under extreme situations?

[DennisTate]

And in that lays the dilemma... It might not be your calling.. But for those who believe they should become a police officer, then all the rights and responsibilities of being a police officer come with that job. If by faith, they can not kill, then this job is not for them. It is one of those necessary choices, they hope never happens, but are ready to do if necessary.

If I soon apply for my Israeli citizenship I will not be asking for exemption from
military service or training. I am 58 right now, pretty long in the tooth for the IDF but
I saw an article where the IDF even accommodates young people who are handicapped.... so
maybe I could work along with them????

 

[BukiRob]

It is not that clear cut. There are other options. I do not believe a follower of Yeshua should ever kill another human being. A believer should not become a police officer or join the military so he will not have to kill people. There are plenty of unbelievers to fill those roles. I am not an "absolute pacifist", but simply one who does not believe in killing people.

I see nothing at all that scripturally supports your position. If that is your personal belief that is fine as each is to walk in accordance to the conviction of the Ruach.

The problem arises when one attempts to lay a foundation that this is the believe that ALL should have because there is no scriptural support for such a doctrine.

 

[BukiRob]

Can you cite some quotes from the targumim concerning only the Father being God? Or send them in a PM so as not to derail this thread?


I put "love" in quotation marks as opposed to what was being said by the Jews:

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
​

As for Joshua, he killed at the command of YHWH as we all should. My contention is that we should NOT kill without a command from Him, even if our government commands us to.

And if your understanding of that violates the rest of Torah then you have misunderstood what Messiah is saying. Secondly, to interpret the word as kill is an error. The more correct meaning is MURDER.

1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Mark 12:29-34 —And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

John 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Ephesians 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Timothy 2:5 — For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

James 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


There are obviously numerous others in the Tanak

 

[gadar perets]

I see nothing at all that scripturally supports your position. If that is your personal belief that is fine as each is to walk in accordance to the conviction of the Ruach.

The problem arises when one attempts to lay a foundation that this is the believe that ALL should have because there is no scriptural support for such a doctrine.

Why would we be allowed to kill those who we love? Are we to love our enemies as per Yeshua's words? If yes, then how do you harmonize killing them with loving them?

What is the Scriptural support for killing people other than at the command of YHWH?

 

[gadar perets]

And if your understanding of that violates the rest of Torah then you have misunderstood what Messiah is saying. Secondly, to interpret the word as kill is an error. The more correct meaning is MURDER.

Joshua "killed" people at the command of YHWH. If Joshua killed Moses, it would be murder. The 6th commandment refers especially to murder. If I choose to join the army without a command to do so from YHWH, and take the life of another human being, then I murdered him. Hopefully, he wasn't a believer. Then I would be guilty of murdering a child of YHWH without permission from Him.

1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

Mark 12:29-34 —And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

John 17:3 — And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Ephesians 4:6 — One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Timothy 2:5 — For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

James 2:19 — Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.


There are obviously numerous others in the Tanak

Thanks, but I was specifically asking Hoshiyya for examples of this from the targumim.

 

[BukiRob]

Joshua "killed" people at the command of YHWH. If Joshua killed Moses, it would be murder. The 6th commandment refers especially to murder. If I choose to join the army without a command to do so from YHWH, and take the life of another human being, then I murdered him. Hopefully, he wasn't a believer. Then I would be guilty of murdering a child of YHWH without permission from Him.


Thanks, but I was specifically asking Hoshiyya for examples of this from the targumim.

I fully support YOUR personal conviction. But, you are on flawed theology if you are saying that G-d is against those who serve in the Police, FBI, Military etc....

I can not more strongly disagree with. A soldier fighting in war is NOT a murderer. If you are teaching that then you are saying some really awful things about those who stand in the gap

 

[BukiRob]

Why would we be allowed to kill those who we love? Are we to love our enemies as per Yeshua's words? If yes, then how do you harmonize killing them with loving them?

What is the Scriptural support for killing people other than at the command of YHWH?

You are mixing personal conduct with corporate conduct. War is fought in a corporal basis meaning it is NOT the individual acting on his or her own compunction. Nowhere in scripture does G-d treat war like he does the commandment thou shalt not commit murder because scripture does not define it as such.

You are attempting to ignore the foundation (war is not treated as murder) of scripture to interject a new doctrine that ignores the foundation laid in the Torah

 

[gadar perets]

I fully support YOUR personal conviction. But, you are on flawed theology if you are saying that G-d is against those who serve in the Police, FBI, Military etc....

I did not say a believer cannot serve in those areas. A believer simply cannot kill people while serving in those areas. There are positions in those fields that do not put one in a position were they may need to kill.

I can not more strongly disagree with. A soldier fighting in war is NOT a murderer. If you are teaching that then you are saying some really awful things about those who stand in the gap

A soldier commanded by YHWH to fight a war is not a murderer. A believer who joins the military without YHWH's consent and knowing full well he may have to kill people is murdering them. He is choosing to kill when he doesn't have to.

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds ...​

 

[gadar perets]

You are mixing personal conduct with corporate conduct. War is fought in a corporal basis meaning it is NOT the individual acting on his or her own compunction.

If a believer chooses to put himself under the command of the corporate, he is choosing to give up his allegiance to YHWH and His leadership and putting it in the hands of those who will require him to kill. If he remains in allegiance to YHWH alone, there will be no need to kill.

You are attempting to ignore the foundation (war is not treated as murder) of scripture to interject a new doctrine that ignores the foundation laid in the Torah

Believers are called to a higher standard than what Torah lays out concerning war. They were all living in the flesh. We are living in the Spirit. We do NOT go to war. Our prayers are far more efficacious than our bullets when those prayers are offered up to the Elohim who controls all things.

 

[BukiRob]

If a believer chooses to put himself under the command of the corporate, he is choosing to give up his allegiance to YHWH and His leadership and putting it in the hands of those who will require him to kill. If he remains in allegiance to YHWH alone, there will be no need to kill.


Believers are called to a higher standard than what Torah lays out concerning war. They were all living in the flesh. We are living in the Spirit. We do NOT go to war. Our prayers are far more efficacious than our bullets when those prayers are offered up to the Elohim who controls all things.

That is utterly ABSURD.

Look Im not going to engage in this topic with you because I SERVED. I've said this as nicely as I can. I think you are dead, flat wrong. Let's leave it at that.

 

[gadar perets]

That is utterly ABSURD.

Look Im not going to engage in this topic with you because I SERVED. I've said this as nicely as I can. I think you are dead, flat wrong. Let's leave it at that.

I understand your position and your decision to not discuss this further. Can you at least help me to understand how you interpret Paul when he writes;

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds ...
​

To me, that seems like a clear admonition that believers are not to fight in wars as the men of the world do.

 

[AbbaLove]

That is utterly ABSURD.

Look I'm not going to engage in this topic with you because I SERVED. I've said this as nicely as I can. I think you are dead, flat wrong. Let's leave it at that.

To me, that seems like a clear admonition that believers are not to fight in wars as the men of the world do.

It's clear that what Paul is referring to is Spiritual warfare ... mighty through the LORD God to pulling down demonic strong holds.

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds ...​

The 1967 Six-Day War was started by Israel's enemies. Israel has every right to defend itself with Israel's Supreme Commander being the Almighty LORD God.

 

[gadar perets]

It's clear that what Paul is referring to is Spiritual warfare ... mighty through the LORD God to pulling down demonic strong holds.

2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
2Co 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds ...​

The 1967 Six-Day War was started by Israel's enemies. Israel has every right to defend itself with Israel's Supreme Commander being the Almighty LORD God.

He is talking about spiritual warfare in opposition to carnal warfare. We fight spiritual wars, not carnal wars.

Israel is not a nation of believers in Messiah Yeshua. Carnal men have no choice but to fight carnal wars. Spiritual men have other ways to deal with enemies.

 

[AbbaLove]

Israel is not a nation of believers in Messiah Yeshua.

According to your thinking only carnal secular Jews should serve in the IDF, and not Messianic Jews?

Try telling that to the brave [carnal according to you] soldiers that entered Jerusalem through the Lion's Gate at the end of Six-Day War in '67. Try telling the soldiers that didn't get killed that as a Messianic Jew you are no longer carnal and therefore it would be against your belief to serve in the IDF as a soldier ... assuming you were in your 20s.

If someone told you bananas are yellow you wouldn't be satisfied until convincing them that bananas are green.

 

[gadar perets]

According to your thinking only carnal secular Jews should serve in the IDF, and not Messianic Jews?

No believer should serve in any military position that may cause them to kill people.

Try telling that to the brave [carnal according to you] soldiers that entered Jerusalem through the Lion's Gate at the end of Six-Day War in '67. Try telling the soldiers that didn't get killed that as a Messianic Jew you are no longer carnal and therefore it would be against your belief to serve in the IDF as a soldier ... assuming you were in your 20s.

Should I "try telling" my future boss that has spent his whole life working on Sabbath to build his company that I can't work on Sabbath because it is against my beliefs? Or should I just join his company and pollute the Sabbath as he is?

 

[visionary]

No believer should serve in any military position that may cause them to kill people.


Should I "try telling" my future boss that has spent his whole life working on Sabbath to build his company that I can't work on Sabbath because it is against my beliefs? Or should I just join his company and pollute the Sabbath as he is?

What is your field of expertise? Is it in the medical field?

 

[gadar perets]

What is your field of expertise? Is it in the medical field?

Physical fitness

 

[DennisTate]

No believer should serve in any military position that may cause them to kill people.


Should I "try telling" my future boss that has spent his whole life working on Sabbath to build his company that I can't work on Sabbath because it is against my beliefs? Or should I just join his company and pollute the Sabbath as he is?

If... he offers you a job teaching kids material on Sabbath that is
somewhat along the line of what they should be learning on the Sabbath.....
then you have a valid question in front of you........

 

[gadar perets]

If... he offers you a job teaching kids material on Sabbath that is
somewhat along the line of what they should be learning on the Sabbath.....
then you have a valid question in front of you........

To me, that would be acceptable as long as I didn't receive a salary to do it.

 

[visionary]

If I soon apply for my Israeli citizenship I will not be asking for exemption from
military service or training. I am 58 right now, pretty long in the tooth for the IDF but
I saw an article where the IDF even accommodates young people who are handicapped.... so
maybe I could work along with them????

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