Sabbath in Eden - Bible fact affirmed by both Sunday and Sabbath groups

[BobRyan]

Why do you keep repeating the same thing? I have already shown that your use of the Westminster Confession is puzzling at best, if not dishonest.

You have not done that in real life - though I would be happy to read it if you had.

 

[BobRyan]

You said...……….
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And right here by your own words you show me the lack of Bible understanding that is needed to rightly study the Word of God.

you appear to be shooting your argument in the foot.

 

[BobRyan]

here are some things they should have thought about.

The moral teaching of Jesus is very well summarized in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew and the Sermon on the Plain in Luke. Jesus doesn't say anything about observing the Sabbath

Jesus also does not say anything about "do not take God's name in vain" and the Bible scholars on both sides of the Sabbath vs Sunday discussion knew that. A key detail you keep sidestepping.

They knew that Matthew 5 was nothing at all of a "Bible digest saying to ignore everything not in Matthew 5"

Thus they could not use your "solution".

in the Sermon on the Mount or the Sermon on the Plain. Jesus doesn't say anything about the Ten Commandments in the Sermon on the Mount or the Sermon on the Plain.

But He does in Matthew 19 when He says "KEEP the Commandments" and is asked "which ones".

All those Bible scholars knew that - so they could not take the narrow approach of "just look here not there" that you suggest.

It is certainly true that on many points, Jesus makes the Old Testament law more strict. Yet He does not make the Ten Commandments the foundation of his teaching nor does he treat them as a useful summary of OT law.

Until you read the teaching of Jesus in places like Mark 7:6-13 and Matthew 19.

The bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion knew this and could not do as you suggest in ignoring that teaching of Jesus or the rest of the NEW Testament.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" where those commandments include "the fifth commandment as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

No wonder Jesus teaches that the "Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 as Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew and as they reference

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew this obvious Bible detail and could not simply "ignore texts" to get to a less compelling position.

In Acts 15, the Apostles meet in Jerusalem to decide under what conditions Gentiles, or non-Jews, may become Christians. In a letter to three churches, writing in the name of the Holy Spirit, they urge abstinence from sexual immorality but otherwise lay no new or unfamiliar burdens on non-Jewish Christians. The letter doesn't say to follow the Ten Commandments

It does not say to Love God, It does not say " Do not take God's name in vain" it does not say to Honor parents, it does not say to not murder. etc. It does not say it is a replacement for the Bible.

Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew this obvious Bible detail and could not simply "ignore" the rest of scripture for gentiles AS IF Acts 15 were saying "ignore the word of God - just read these 4 sentences" -- they needed a much more compelling solution.

Why get stuck on "the easy part" that BOTH sides already admit to seeing in the actual Bible?

===========================

In short thanks for explaining where you think all Bible scholars in the world are wrong when they agree to certain obvious Bible details about the TEN commandments - but as you see in the examples above - a more narrow less defensible position was not an option for them. They needed a position that would stand up to at least some level of "close review" as compared to the Bible.

Now in Christian love and with all due respect to you allow me to reach out and help you.

First of all lets do the CONTEXT shall we. Colossians 1:16...……..
"For by Him (Christ) all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him."

So according to the Word of God, WHO is the Creator of ALL things?????

JESUS the CHRIST. That means HE created the universe, the Earth, Adam, Eve You and me. That is Christianity 101 my brother.

I am happy you have the basics... was I supposed to be objecting to that???

Now then, lets go to Luke 24:25-27...…….
"Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."

By reading the Word of God we see that Jesus has predated Himself that He was before Moses.

John 8:58...…….
"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Again we are all gratified that you have the basics so far... where is the part where you want me to object???

(and the part where you get to the topic of this thread - oh by the way)

What then did John the revalator say about Christ in John 1:1-3...…..
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Now then Bob, are you still with me???????

You seem to be circling around the basics ... as if this is somehow surprising to everyone. What is up with that??

Again YOU said clearly...……………………..
"Jesus also does not say anything about "do not take God's name in vain".

True that is not a statement we find in Matthew 5.

The point remains.

But now we know from the Word of God that Jesus predates creation, He was before the prohets and He was before time.

Now having shown you that from the Bible......WHO do YOU think gave Moses the commandments on Mt. Sinai and WHO said to Moses these words
" You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him".

Bob.....do you not realize that the Pre-incarnate Christ is the one who has given us His precious WORD.

HE told ALL of the prophets what to write!!!!

Indeed - it is Christ speaking the TEN at Sinai - including "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy"

It is Christ in John 14:15 "IF you love Me KEEP My Commandments"

Certainly - but in your post as I quoted it above -- you told us to just focus on Matthew 5 and the "sermon on the plane" in Luke.

My point was that all of scripture is not found there - And as you now seem to be pointing out - not even all of what Christ taught can be found in Matthew 5.

 

[Major1]

you appear to be shooting your argument in the foot.

NOPE! Just the facts because Bible details matter my friend. Right?

 

[Major1]

Why do you keep repeating the same thing? I have already shown that your use of the Westminster Confession is puzzling at best, if not dishonest.

I have asked the same question about a dozen times as well.

 

[Major1]

Jesus also does not say anything about "do not take God's name in vain" and the Bible scholars on both sides of the Sabbath vs Sunday discussion knew that. A key detail you keep sidestepping.

They knew that Matthew 5 was nothing at all of a "Bible digest saying to ignore everything not in Matthew 5"

Thus they could not use your "solution".



But He does in Matthew 19 when He says "KEEP the Commandments" and is asked "which ones".

All those Bible scholars knew that - so they could not take the narrow approach of "just look here not there" that you suggest.



Until you read the teaching of Jesus in places like Mark 7:6-13 and Matthew 19.

The bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion knew this and could not do as you suggest in ignoring that teaching of Jesus or the rest of the NEW Testament.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" where those commandments include "the fifth commandment as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

No wonder Jesus teaches that the "Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 as Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew and as they reference

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew this obvious Bible detail and could not simply "ignore texts" to get to a less compelling position.



It does not say to Love God, It does not say " Do not take God's name in vain" it does not say to Honor parents, it does not say to not murder. etc. It does not say it is a replacement for the Bible.

Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew this obvious Bible detail and could not simply "ignore" the rest of scripture for gentiles AS IF Acts 15 were saying "ignore the word of God - just read these 4 sentences" -- they needed a much more compelling solution.

Why get stuck on "the easy part" that BOTH sides already admit to seeing in the actual Bible?

===========================

In short thanks for explaining where you think all Bible scholars in the world are wrong when they agree to certain obvious Bible details about the TEN commandments - but as you see in the examples above - a more narrow less defensible position was not an option for them. They needed a position that would stand up to at least some level of "close review" as compared to the Bible.




I am happy you have the basics... was I supposed to be objecting to that???



Again we are all gratified that you have the basics so far... where is the part where you want me to object???

(and the part where you get to the topic of this thread - oh by the way)



You seem to be circling around the basics ... as if this is somehow surprising to everyone. What is up with that??



True that is not a statement we find in Matthew 5.

The point remains.



Indeed - it is Christ speaking the TEN at Sinai - including "remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy"

It is Christ in John 14:15 "IF you love Me KEEP My Commandments"

Certainly - but in your post as I quoted it above -- you told us to just focus on Matthew 5 and the "sermon on the plane" in Luke.

My point was that all of scripture is not found there - And as you now seem to be pointing out - not even all of what Christ taught can be found in Matthew 5.

It is actually staggering to me how easy you manipulate the Scriptures to make them say what Mrs. White believed in her hallucinations.

 

[Dale]

Jesus also does not say anything about "do not take God's name in vain" and the Bible scholars on both sides of the Sabbath vs Sunday discussion knew that. A key detail you keep sidestepping.

They knew that Matthew 5 was nothing at all of a "Bible digest saying to ignore everything not in Matthew 5"

Thus they could not use your "solution".



But He does in Matthew 19 when He says "KEEP the Commandments" and is asked "which ones".

All those Bible scholars knew that - so they could not take the narrow approach of "just look here not there" that you suggest.



Until you read the teaching of Jesus in places like Mark 7:6-13 and Matthew 19.

The bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion knew this and could not do as you suggest in ignoring that teaching of Jesus or the rest of the NEW Testament.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" where those commandments include "the fifth commandment as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

No wonder Jesus teaches that the "Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 as Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew and as they reference

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew this obvious Bible detail and could not simply "ignore texts" to get to a less compelling position.



It does not say to Love God, It does not say " Do not take God's name in vain" it does not say to Honor parents, it does not say to not murder. etc. It does not say it is a replacement for the Bible.

Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew this obvious Bible detail and could not simply "ignore" the rest of scripture for gentiles AS IF Acts 15 were saying "ignore the word of God - just read these 4 sentences" -- they needed a much more compelling solution.

Why get stuck on "the easy part" that BOTH sides already admit to seeing in the actual Bible?

===========================

In short thanks for explaining where you think all Bible scholars in the world are wrong when they agree to certain obvious Bible details about the TEN commandments - but as you see in the examples above - a more narrow less defensible position was not an option for them. They needed a position that would stand up to at least some level of "close review" as compared to the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob Ryan in #52: << It does not say to Love God, It does not say " Do not take God's name in vain" it does not say to Honor parents, it does not say to not murder. etc. >>




You are in error. There is a lot more to know about the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus deals with the issue of swearing directly and bluntly, and this is one area where He is more strict than OT law.




33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.

Matthew 5: 33-37 NIV




So Jesus does say "do not swear." In case this needs any amplification, take a look at James.




12 Above all, my brothers and sisters, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. All you need to say is a simple “Yes” or “No.” Otherwise you will be condemned.

James 5:12 NIV



The Gospels do deal with murder directly as well.

19 [Jesus says,]For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

Matthew 15:19 NIV

 

[Dale]

Jesus also does not say anything about "do not take God's name in vain" and the Bible scholars on both sides of the Sabbath vs Sunday discussion knew that. A key detail you keep sidestepping.

They knew that Matthew 5 was nothing at all of a "Bible digest saying to ignore everything not in Matthew 5"

Thus they could not use your "solution".



But He does in Matthew 19 when He says "KEEP the Commandments" and is asked "which ones".

All those Bible scholars knew that - so they could not take the narrow approach of "just look here not there" that you suggest.



Until you read the teaching of Jesus in places like Mark 7:6-13 and Matthew 19.

The bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion knew this and could not do as you suggest in ignoring that teaching of Jesus or the rest of the NEW Testament.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" where those commandments include "the fifth commandment as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

No wonder Jesus teaches that the "Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 as Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew and as they reference

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew this obvious Bible detail and could not simply "ignore texts" to get to a less compelling position.



It does not say to Love God, It does not say " Do not take God's name in vain" it does not say to Honor parents, it does not say to not murder. etc. It does not say it is a replacement for the Bible.

Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew this obvious Bible detail and could not simply "ignore" the rest of scripture for gentiles AS IF Acts 15 were saying "ignore the word of God - just read these 4 sentences" -- they needed a much more compelling solution.

Why get stuck on "the easy part" that BOTH sides already admit to seeing in the actual Bible?

===========================

In short thanks for explaining where you think all Bible scholars in the world are wrong when they agree to certain obvious Bible details about the TEN commandments - but as you see in the examples above - a more narrow less defensible position was not an option for them. They needed a position that would stand up to at least some level of "close review" as compared to the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob Ryan: "The bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion knew this and could not do as you suggest in ignoring that teaching of Jesus or the rest of the NEW Testament."




As I showed in the last post, you are drastically misleading people on what the Sermon on the Mount and the Gospels contain. I can't accept your point about scholars "on both sides" of the sabbath debate either. Many of the sources and scholars that you cite lived before the SDA church was founded, so they weren't aware of the fantastic claims of Ellen White. Since they were not aware of her claims, they did not seek to refute them. The Westminster Confession, for instance, which you keep citing, was written long before Ellen White was born. The authors of the WC do not interpret the Commandments the way she does.

 

[Dale]

Often in "pop culture" it is assumed that only Sabbath keeping groups like Seventh-day Adventists will admit to the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments (including the Sabbath commandment) were the moral law of God even as far back as Eden. (So then no "taking God's name in vain" for Adam and Eve).

But as it turns out - a great many denominations are on record as admitting to this detail.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson


Of course the reason that Sabbath keeping groups accept the Bible detail of the Sabbath in Eden -- and for all mankind -- includes some of the obvious texts.

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind and not mankind for the Sabbath" -- which speaks of the "making" of both mankind and the Sabbath.

Gen 2:1-3 - the making of Sabbath
Gen 1-2:3 the making of mankind and the Sabbath.
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


Ex 20:11 points make to that singular 7 day event for the making of the Sabbath.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall mankind come before Me to worship"
Is 56:6-8 - gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping

And of course both the Sunday and Sabbath groups agree that the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart" was made "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"
Just as the TEN commandments with their command "Do not take God's name in vain" was included in the moral law of God given to Israel.

============================================



=========================================
Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   
   
   
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
   
   
   
7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
5. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
6. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.

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D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.

Bob, the core of your theology is the the Sabbath Commandment says "Go to church on Saturday." As I have pointed out before, this has nothing to do with the wording of the Commandment, which lists categories of people who "shall not work," people who get a day off, on the Sabbath.




How do the Jewish Rabbis interpret the Sabbath Commandment? Surely this is a good source, since they are obviously not confused by Christian theology.




Most Jewish Synagogues meet on Friday evening or Sunday morning, in our time. Why? First, because the Commandments put no limits on holding religious services. Old Testament law does put severe limits on travel on the Sabbath. It is usually impractical for Jews to meet on Saturday because they would be violating the OT restrictions on how far a person can travel. That's why they often meet on Friday evening, when there are no restrictions on travel, or Sunday morning, when there are no restrictions on travel.




This didn't occur to the SDA prophetess Ellen White because she didn't understand Old Testament law.

 

[Dale]

Agreed.

The Christian church simply does not honor the Sabbath/Saturday.

The Christian church honors Sunday because it is the day of the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now the real question must be asked. WHY is there so much argument from the SDA's on whether anyone worships of Saturday or Sunday or even Wednesday for that matter?????

Probably the strangest view of the mark of the beast can be found among the Seventh Day Adventists. Because they are so unscripturally obsessed with the Saturday Sabbath, they have dreamed up a new way to oppose the worship of God on Sunday.

They are adamant about the day of Saturday because They think the mark of the beast is Sunday worship!

Major1 in post #48:
"They are adamant about the day of Saturday because They think the mark of the beast is Sunday worship! "

Major1 is quite right on this.

Here are two quotes from an accessible SDA source on that subject.


"When it comes to Christians who do not know the Sabbath is eternal and that the Seventh day falls on the day we call Saturday, scripture says God winks at such ignorance, but not when people desire to remain ignorant because they do not want to know the truth."


"The Catholic Church say that their mark was the ability to change the fourth Commandment of God and have the whole protestant world follow her. Hence the mark of the beast, or should I say the mark of the Catholic Church does relate to some perishing in hell fire in that respect."



Article:
Do Sunday Worshippers Go to Hell? - Mark of the Beast



Link
Do Sunday Worshippers Go To Hell

 

[BobRyan]

here are some things they should have thought about.

The moral teaching of Jesus is very well summarized in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew and the Sermon on the Plain in Luke. Jesus doesn't say anything about observing the Sabbath

Jesus also does not say anything about "do not take God's name in vain" and the Bible scholars on both sides of the Sabbath vs Sunday discussion knew that. A key detail you keep sidestepping.

They knew that Matthew 5 was nothing at all of a "Bible digest saying to ignore everything not in Matthew 5"

Thus they could not use your "solution".

in the Sermon on the Mount or the Sermon on the Plain. Jesus doesn't say anything about the Ten Commandments in the Sermon on the Mount or the Sermon on the Plain.

But He does in Matthew 19 when He says "KEEP the Commandments" and is asked "which ones".

All those Bible scholars knew that - so they could not take the narrow approach of "just look here not there" that you suggest.

It is certainly true that on many points, Jesus makes the Old Testament law more strict. Yet He does not make the Ten Commandments the foundation of his teaching nor does he treat them as a useful summary of OT law.

Until you read the teaching of Jesus in places like Mark 7:6-13 and Matthew 19.

The bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion knew this and could not do as you suggest in ignoring that teaching of Jesus or the rest of the NEW Testament.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" where those commandments include "the fifth commandment as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

No wonder Jesus teaches that the "Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 as Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew and as they reference

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew this obvious Bible detail and could not simply "ignore texts" to get to a less compelling position.

In Acts 15, the Apostles meet in Jerusalem to decide under what conditions Gentiles, or non-Jews, may become Christians. In a letter to three churches, writing in the name of the Holy Spirit, they urge abstinence from sexual immorality but otherwise lay no new or unfamiliar burdens on non-Jewish Christians. The letter doesn't say to follow the Ten Commandments

It does not say to Love God, It does not say " Do not take God's name in vain" it does not say to Honor parents, it does not say to not murder. etc. It does not say it is a replacement for the Bible.

Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew this obvious Bible detail and could not simply "ignore" the rest of scripture for gentiles AS IF Acts 15 were saying "ignore the word of God - just read these 4 sentences" -- they needed a much more compelling solution.

Why get stuck on "the easy part" that BOTH sides already admit to seeing in the actual Bible?

===========================

In short thanks for explaining where you think all Bible scholars in the world are wrong when they agree to certain obvious Bible details about the TEN commandments - but as you see in the examples above - a more narrow less defensible position was not an option for them. They needed a position that would stand up to at least some level of "close review" as compared to the Bible.

You are in error. There is a lot more to know about the Sermon on the Mount.

And none of it saying "ignore the rest of the Bible just pay attention to Matthew 5" as I am sure we all know and agree.


33 “Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not break your oath, but fulfill to the Lord the vows you have made.’ 34 But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37 All you need to say is simply ‘Yes’ or ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.
Matthew 5: 33-37 NIV

Is a great example of not finding the quote "do not take God's name in vain" of Ex 20:7

12 Above all, my brothers and sisters, do not swear—not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. All you need to say is a simple “Yes” or “No.” Otherwise you will be condemned. James 5:12 NIV

Is a great example of not reading anything at all from Matthew 5.

The Gospels do deal with murder directly as well.

19 [Jesus says,]For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.

Matthew 15:19 NIV

Especially when you read the words of Christ in Matthew 19:18
“You shall not commit murder;
You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal;
You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

What we do not find is "do not take God's name in vain" - but this "means nothing" since that is not a funny kind of rule of exegesis for deleting one of the TEN Commandments.

So far your speculation in this area does not survive these Bible details.

The point remains.

 

[BobRyan]

I can't accept your point about scholars "on both sides" of the sabbath debate either.

Then you need to pay attention to "the details" in the post.

Many of the sources and scholars that you cite lived before the SDA church was founded,

Which is irrelevant to the point I am making -- other than refuting your charge that those who affirm the continued authority for the 4th commandment get all their information from Ellen White.

so they weren't aware of the fantastic claims of Ellen White. Since they were not aware of her claims, they did not seek to refute them. The Westminster Confession, for instance, which you keep citing, was written long before Ellen White was born.

Spin and twist the point much? I never said "they failed to refute the claims of Ellen White" in any of my posts. In fact the only one of us bringing Ellen White into this "is you".

Stay focused on the point please. I will repeat it for you just in case it has slipped your focus.

=========================== quote of OP

Often in "pop culture" it is assumed that only Sabbath keeping groups like Seventh-day Adventists will admit to the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments (including the Sabbath commandment) were the moral law of God even as far back as Eden. (So then no "taking God's name in vain" for Adam and Eve).

===============================

So then THAT was the claim from the very start of this thread.

Now lets see how the assumption to be disproven was in fact disproven.
==================== quote of OP resumes

But as it turns out - a great many denominations are on record as admitting to this detail.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson


Of course the reason that Sabbath keeping groups accept the Bible detail of the Sabbath in Eden -- and for all mankind -- includes some of the obvious texts.

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind and not mankind for the Sabbath" -- which speaks of the "making" of both mankind and the Sabbath.

Gen 2:1-3 - the making of Sabbath
Gen 1-2:3 the making of mankind and the Sabbath.
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


Ex 20:11 points make to that singular 7 day event for the making of the Sabbath.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall mankind come before Me to worship"
Is 56:6-8 - gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping

And of course both the Sunday and Sabbath groups agree that the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart" was made "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"
Just as the TEN commandments with their command "Do not take God's name in vain" was included in the moral law of God given to Israel.

============================================

Could you quote this Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of Faith that you refer to? I don't think I have seen these particular documents.

=========================================
Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   
   
   
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
   
   
   
7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
5. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
6. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.

=======================================


D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."
================ end quote of D.L. Moody in OP

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, the core of your theology is the the Sabbath Commandment says "Go to church on Saturday." .

Which is what D.L. Moody admits.. and it is what the "Baptist Confession of Faith" Section 22 admits and it is what the "Westminster Confession of Faith" section 21 admits and the RCC in its Catechism etc.

For example - Baptist Confession of Faith 22.7

7. It is the law of nature that in general a portion of time specified by God should be set apart for the worship of God. So by his Word, in a positive-moral and perpetual commandment that obligates everyone in every age, he has specifically appointed one day in seven for a sabbath to be kept holy to him.28 From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ the appointed day was the last day of the week. After the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week, which is called the Lord’s Day.29 This day is to be kept to the end of the age as the Christian Sabbath, since the observance of the last day of the week has been abolished.


Are you even reading the material at this point?

All the sources admit that the commandment as God gave it pointed to the 7th day of the week and that "the change" made after the cross points to week-day-1 Sunday (and so all admit that the 7th day is Saturday).

Were we simply "not supposed to notice"?? seriously??

 

[BobRyan]

Most Jewish Synagogues meet on Friday evening or Sunday morning, in our time. Why? First, because the Commandments put no limits on holding religious services. Old Testament law does put severe limits on travel on the Sabbath.

you know that makes no sense right? If they drive to a Friday service before Sunset ... how do they get home after sunset?

What happens "in real life" is that orthodox Jews often have a rented apartment near the synagogue as they do in Baltimore Maryland and in Columbia Maryland for example - and they go there on Friday and stay until after the end of Sabbath..

I have been to their Friday services and those are not the main Sabbath service.

However at no point do I ever say that modern Judaism is the standard for what this Bible doctrine even is - not for Sabbath keeping Christians and not for all the Sunday scholars I keep quoting for you. You appear to be reaching for "straws" at this point.

This didn't occur to the SDA prophetess Ellen White because she didn't understand Old Testament law.

You need more substance in our post if you are looking for something compelling for us to consider.

Nothing seems to change for you. You are only repeating the same SDA false teachings ... <obligatory rant deleted here> .

More substance... less rant please.

 

[Major1]

Then you need to pay attention to "the details" in the post.



Which is irrelevant to the point I am making -- other than refuting your charge that those who affirm the continued authority for the 4th commandment get all their information from Ellen White.




Spin and twist the point much? I never said "they failed to refute the claims of Ellen White" in any of my posts. In fact the only one of us bringing Ellen White into this "is you".

Stay focused on the point please. I will repeat it for you just in case it has slipped your focus.

=========================== quote of OP

Often in "pop culture" it is assumed that only Sabbath keeping groups like Seventh-day Adventists will admit to the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments (including the Sabbath commandment) were the moral law of God even as far back as Eden. (So then no "taking God's name in vain" for Adam and Eve).

===============================

So then THAT was the claim from the very start of this thread.

Now lets see how the assumption to be disproven was in fact disproven.
==================== quote of OP resumes

But as it turns out - a great many denominations are on record as admitting to this detail.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson


Of course the reason that Sabbath keeping groups accept the Bible detail of the Sabbath in Eden -- and for all mankind -- includes some of the obvious texts.

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind and not mankind for the Sabbath" -- which speaks of the "making" of both mankind and the Sabbath.

Gen 2:1-3 - the making of Sabbath
Gen 1-2:3 the making of mankind and the Sabbath.
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


Ex 20:11 points make to that singular 7 day event for the making of the Sabbath.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall mankind come before Me to worship"
Is 56:6-8 - gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping

And of course both the Sunday and Sabbath groups agree that the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart" was made "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"
Just as the TEN commandments with their command "Do not take God's name in vain" was included in the moral law of God given to Israel.

============================================



=========================================
Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

1. 
   
   
   • God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
     
   • The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
     
   • Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
     
   • To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   • The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
     
   • Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
     
   • The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

1. 
   
   
   • God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
   • This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
   • Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
   • To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
   • Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
   • Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.

=======================================


D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."
================ end quote of D.L. Moody in OP

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.

Nothing seems to change for you. You are only repeating the same SDA false teachings over and over and with all due respect, NO ONE read your long drawn out posts.

IF you want to be taken seriously, you need to learn a new way to present your tired theology and in a shorter format...…….OR NOT!

 

[BobRyan]

IF you want to be taken seriously, you need to learn a new way to present your tired theology and in a shorter format...…….OR NOT!

If you want to be taken serious - respond to the OP.

Either point by point affirm... In short posts if you wish.
Or point by point refute.. in short posts if you wish.

But just going off on stream of consciousness wild tangents that stray entirely off the points made in the OP where in fact the OP refutes your claims -- is just "begging" to have the OP repeated for you. I have no idea why some folks choose that option. I certainly wouldn't

 

[Major1]

If you want to be taken serious - respond to the OP.

Either point by point affirm... In short posts if you wish.
Or point by point refute.. in short posts if you wish.

But just going off on stream of consciousness wild tangents that stray entirely off the points made in the OP where in fact the OP refutes your claims -- is just "begging" to have the OP repeated for you. I have no idea why some folks choose that option. I certainly wouldn't

From post #1 you stated………..
Mark 2:27
"the Sabbath was made for mankind and not mankind for the Sabbath" --
which speaks of the "making" of both mankind and the Sabbath.

The Fourth Commandment says very clearly that we are not to do servile or customary work on the Sabbath. IT DOES NOT SAY THAT WE ARE COMMANDED TO ATTEND WORSHIP SERVICES ON THE SABBATH.

As God rested on the seventh day from His ordinary work of creating plants, animals and men, so we are to rest from our ordinary labor and to be refreshed on the Sabbath.

In Mark 2:27 which you quoted, Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man. It was God’s gift to man. It was not supposed to be a burden, but a blessing. As God blessed and sanctified for holy use the seventh day, He did so for man, so man will be blessed when he properly keeps and enjoys the seventh day.

However, the Pharisees at the time of Jesus Christ had made a burden out of the Sabbath. Their motives might have been good, but the result was catastrophic. They remembered that the Assyrians and Babylonians had enslaved the ancient houses of Israel and Judah because of their idolatry and Sabbath-breaking. They wanted to make sure that the people would not again break the Sabbath. In trying to accomplish this, they added many rules and restrictions to God’s Sabbath commandment, reasoning that one had to break first those restrictions, before reaching the core of the Sabbath Law, and that it would be very difficult to peel off the layers of their man-made rules to ever reach the substance of the Law.

They felt that these additional man-made rules constituted a “fence” to protect the substance of the Sabbath.

My dear friend, please do yourself the favor of looking somewhere besides SDA false teachings to find REAL HISTORICAL FACTS.

They reasoned that no one would violate the heart and core of the Sabbath Law if they were prevented from breaking certain provisions that “fenced in,” and thereby “protected,” the Fourth Commandment. As stated, their motives might have been laudable, but they had in effect placed a yoke on the people which they were not able to bear.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

was written in his heart,

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Seemed best "summary"(shorter format) ..... same as in Romans 2.
Same as Jesus Says "Praise ABBA YAHWEH, You Reveal Salvation and everything concerning Salvation to little children, for thus it is Your Good Pleasure So to DO.." ...
Yahweh is Perfectly Consistent, Faithful TO DO SO,
Yahweh is Totally Trustworthy, Absolutely Righteous Unchanging and Just.

So as Jesus to the crowd Says, "Turn to Yahweh, for His Kingdom is at hand" TODAY.
and again "TODAY, IF (if) you hear His Voice, do not rebel like they did in the wilderness and perished...."

Yes. Yeshua the Same Today, and Yesterday and Forever .

Follow Him.

Often in "pop culture" it is assumed that only Sabbath keeping groups like Seventh-day Adventists will admit to the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments (including the Sabbath commandment) were the moral law of God even as far back as Eden. (So then no "taking God's name in vain" for Adam and Eve).

But as it turns out - a great many denominations are on record as admitting to this detail.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson


Of course the reason that Sabbath keeping groups accept the Bible detail of the Sabbath in Eden -- and for all mankind -- includes some of the obvious texts.

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind and not mankind for the Sabbath" -- which speaks of the "making" of both mankind and the Sabbath.

Gen 2:1-3 - the making of Sabbath
Gen 1-2:3 the making of mankind and the Sabbath.
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


Ex 20:11 points make to that singular 7 day event for the making of the Sabbath.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall mankind come before Me to worship"
Is 56:6-8 - gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping

And of course both the Sunday and Sabbath groups agree that the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart" was made "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"
Just as the TEN commandments with their command "Do not take God's name in vain" was included in the moral law of God given to Israel.

============================================



=========================================
Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   
   
   
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
   
   
   
7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
5. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
6. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.

=======================================


D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.

 

[BobRyan]

From post #1 you stated………..
Mark 2:27
"the Sabbath was made for mankind and not mankind for the Sabbath" --
which speaks of the "making" of both mankind and the Sabbath.

The Fourth Commandment says very clearly that we are not to do servile or customary work

True. And Isaiah 58:13 says we should not engage in any secular activity at all on God's Holy Day - the Lord's Day - the "Holy day of the LORD"

on the Sabbath. IT DOES NOT SAY THAT WE ARE COMMANDED TO ATTEND WORSHIP SERVICES ON THE SABBATH.

True - and also true that Mark 2:27 is not "the entire Bible" according to Christ or according to my OP -- I think we all see that point clearly

So then Lev 23:1-3 "still exists" telling us to attend "solemn assembly" -- "holy convocation"

And Isaiah 66:23 "still exists" telling us that for all eternity after the cross "from Sabbath to Sabbath All mankind" will come before God to worship

Where is the problem?

In Post #1 I never say "Mark 2:27 is the only text in the Bible telling us how to keep the Sabbath day holy" -- and I think we both know that.

So that is the easy part.

As God rested on the seventh day from His ordinary work of creating plants, animals and men, so we are to rest from our ordinary labor and to be refreshed on the Sabbath.

Agreed I think we both agree to that.

In Mark 2:27 which you quoted, Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man. It was God’s gift to man.

Agreed - just like commands against the worship of idols and taking God's name in vain - obedience to the commandments of God are how we show our love to God 1 John 5:2-3 as saved saints.

It was not supposed to be a burden, but a blessing.

Agreed - 1 John 5:2-4 says God's commandments are not a burden to the saints - rather it is a blessing as every Sabbath keeping Christian I know has also affirmed/agreed when I hear them speak about it.

As God blessed and sanctified for holy use the seventh day, He did so for man, so man will be blessed when he properly keeps and enjoys the seventh day.

Agreed.

However, the Pharisees at the time of Jesus Christ had made a burden out of the Sabbath.

Also agreed. In Mark 7:6-13 Jesus flat out condemns them for "making stuff up". And at the same time comes them for commandment breaking.

Their motives might have been good, but the result was catastrophic. They remembered that the Assyrians and Babylonians had enslaved the ancient houses of Israel and Judah because of their idolatry and Sabbath-breaking. They wanted to make sure that the people would not again break the Sabbath. In trying to accomplish this, they added many rules and restrictions to God’s Sabbath commandment, reasoning that one had to break first those restrictions, before reaching the core of the Sabbath Law, and that it would be very difficult to peel off the layers of their man-made rules to ever reach the substance of the Law.

They felt that these additional man-made rules constituted a “fence” to protect the substance of the Sabbath.

Agreed - as Christ points out in hammering them for "making stuff up" that is not in the Bible in Mark 7:6-13.

My dear friend, please do yourself the favor of looking somewhere besides SDA false teachings to find REAL HISTORICAL FACTS.

Here is a "fact" - you can't post details in favor of the SDA view of the Sabbath as in the case above and then call that "condemnation of the SDA view on those very details".

I think we all can see that.

 

[BobRyan]

Reminder -- all these Christian groups were dismissed as 'just so much Ellen White sources' in the "Ellen White's Sabbath in Eden" thread.

and yet "in real life"
=================

D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.



Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   
   
   
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
   
   
   
7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
5. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
6. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.