Sabbath in Eden - Bible fact affirmed by both Sunday and Sabbath groups

[BobRyan]

Bible details... Bible facts.. the hands down "best" response - to all questions/speculation/claims

 

[Dale]

Often in "pop culture" it is assumed that only Sabbath keeping groups like Seventh-day Adventists will admit to the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments (including the Sabbath commandment) were the moral law of God even as far back as Eden. (So then no "taking God's name in vain" for Adam and Eve).

But as it turns out - a great many denominations are on record as admitting to this detail.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson


Of course the reason that Sabbath keeping groups accept the Bible detail of the Sabbath in Eden -- and for all mankind -- includes some of the obvious texts.

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind and not mankind for the Sabbath" -- which speaks of the "making" of both mankind and the Sabbath.

Gen 2:1-3 - the making of Sabbath
Gen 1-2:3 the making of mankind and the Sabbath.
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


Ex 20:11 points make to that singular 7 day event for the making of the Sabbath.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall mankind come before Me to worship"
Is 56:6-8 - gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping

And of course both the Sunday and Sabbath groups agree that the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart" was made "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"
Just as the TEN commandments with their command "Do not take God's name in vain" was included in the moral law of God given to Israel.

============================================



=========================================
Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   
   
   
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
   
   
   
7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
5. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
6. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.

=======================================


D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.

Bob Ryan,

I'm not sure why you keep quoting the Westminster Confession, written by Presbyterians in the 17th century. You obviously do not believe in it, and it specifically refutes some of the key points made by Seventh Day Adventists.

In the following I am relying on PDF's of the Westminster Confession, and associated catechisms, downloaded from the website of the Presbyterian Church in America.



Westminster Confession

Chapter 21 [starts on p. 99 of the PDF]
Of Religious Worship and the Sabbath Day


Westminster Confession, Chapter 21, p. 108

"7. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of
time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in his Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages,
he hath particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be
kept holy unto him:k which, from the beginning of the world to the
resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week; and, from the
resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,l
which, in Scripture, is called the Lord’s Day,m and is to be continued
to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.n"


We see from this quote from the relevant chapter of the Confession that the Old Testament Saturday Sabbath is not binding on New Testament Christians. The Westminster Confession contradicts the absurd story put out by Seventh Day Adventists that the day of worship was changed by the Pope around 350 AD. Instead, the Presbyterians affirm that the change in the day of worship happened and was fully accepted in New Testament times and embodied in the New Testament Scripture.


The Shorter Catechism summarizes this viewpoint succinctly.

The Shorter Catechism, p. 32 of the PDF, Question 59

"Q. 59. Which day of the seven hath God appointed to be the weekly Sabbath?
A. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ,
God appointed the seventh day of the week to be the weekly Sabbath;z
and the first day of the week ever since, to continue to the end of the
world, which is the Christian Sabbath.a"



The Larger Catechism goes into a bit more detail.

Larger Catechism, Part II, p. 2-3, Question 116

"Q. 116. What is required in the fourth commandment?
A. The fourth commandment requireth of all men the sanctifying or keeping holy to God such set times as he hath appointed in his
Word, expressly one whole day in seven; which was the seventh from
the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, and the first
day of the week ever since, and so to continue to the end of the
world; which is the Christian sabbath,k and in the New Testament
called the Lord’s Day.l"


The Westminster Confession plainly tells us that Sunday is "the Lord's Day," and is recognized as the day of worship in the New Testament. Both of the catechisms which derive from the WC say that Sunday, the first day of the week, is "the Christian sabbath." This is the very point which SDA founding prophet Ellen White absolutely rejected. It is the point that the present day SDA will do anything to avoid, but there it is. The Apostles and the New Testament affirm Sunday as the Christian day of worship.

 

[BobRyan]

Often in "pop culture" it is assumed that only Sabbath keeping groups like Seventh-day Adventists will admit to the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments (including the Sabbath commandment) were the moral law of God even as far back as Eden. (So then no "taking God's name in vain" for Adam and Eve).

But as it turns out - a great many denominations are on record as admitting to this detail.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson


Of course the reason that Sabbath keeping groups accept the Bible detail of the Sabbath in Eden -- and for all mankind -- includes some of the obvious texts.

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind and not mankind for the Sabbath" -- which speaks of the "making" of both mankind and the Sabbath.

Gen 2:1-3 - the making of Sabbath
Gen 1-2:3 the making of mankind and the Sabbath.
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


Ex 20:11 points make to that singular 7 day event for the making of the Sabbath.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall mankind come before Me to worship"
Is 56:6-8 - gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping

And of course both the Sunday and Sabbath groups agree that the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart" was made "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"
Just as the TEN commandments with their command "Do not take God's name in vain" was included in the moral law of God given to Israel.

============================================

Could you quote this Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of Faith that you refer to? I don't think I have seen these particular documents.

=========================================
Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   
   
   
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
   
   
   
7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
5. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
6. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.

=======================================


D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.

Bob Ryan,
I'm not sure why you keep quoting the Westminster Confession, written by Presbyterians in the 17th century.

Because they affirm certain key Bible details that are irrefutable and that BOTH the Sunday and the Bible Sabbath groups freely admit to.

Obviously.

You obviously do not believe in it,

On the contrary I point to key details that BOTH sides agree to.

So then obviously I quote section 19 because there are Bible details admitted to in that section that are sooooo glaringly obvious that BOTH the Sunday and the Bible-Sabbath groups agree. The "very details" you seem to claim you do not "see".

Why would I not want to point that clear objective standard when in fact it "does not get any easier" than that??

Why do you choose to "get stuck" on the easy part?? That is the real question.

Even your own chosen section - section 21 states obvious Bible details that you seem to also reject no matter that BOTH the Sunday and the Bible-Sabbath groups agree that the Sabbath Commandment was given to all mankind by God as your own quote of your own selected section states. (And as you simply gloss over -- supposing it to be an 'inconvenient detail' that we would not notice).

Did you really think that would work?

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan,
I'm not sure why you keep quoting the Westminster Confession, written by Presbyterians in the 17th century. You obviously do not believe in it, .

Obviously I quote section 19 because there are Bible details admitted to in that section that are sooooo glaringly obvious that BOTH the Sunday and the Bible-Sabbath groups agree. The "very details" you seem to claim you do not "see".

Why would I not want to point that clear objective standard when in fact it "does not get any easier" than that??

Why do you choose to "get stuck" on the easy part?? That is the real question.

Even your own chosen section - section 21 of that same document states obvious Bible details that you seem to also reject no matter that BOTH the Sunday and the Bible-Sabbath groups agree that the Sabbath Commandment was given to all mankind by God as your own quote of your own selected section states. (And as you simply gloss over -- supposing it to be an 'inconvenient detail' that we would not notice).

Did you really think that would work?

 

[BobRyan]

So then the question remains - "why get stuck on the easy part" the part where both sides already agree to the obvious Bible details??

 

[Dale]

Often in "pop culture" it is assumed that only Sabbath keeping groups like Seventh-day Adventists will admit to the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments (including the Sabbath commandment) were the moral law of God even as far back as Eden. (So then no "taking God's name in vain" for Adam and Eve).

But as it turns out - a great many denominations are on record as admitting to this detail.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson


Of course the reason that Sabbath keeping groups accept the Bible detail of the Sabbath in Eden -- and for all mankind -- includes some of the obvious texts.

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind and not mankind for the Sabbath" -- which speaks of the "making" of both mankind and the Sabbath.

Gen 2:1-3 - the making of Sabbath
Gen 1-2:3 the making of mankind and the Sabbath.
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


Ex 20:11 points make to that singular 7 day event for the making of the Sabbath.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall mankind come before Me to worship"
Is 56:6-8 - gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping

And of course both the Sunday and Sabbath groups agree that the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart" was made "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"
Just as the TEN commandments with their command "Do not take God's name in vain" was included in the moral law of God given to Israel.

============================================



=========================================
Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   
   
   
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
   
   
   
7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
5. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
6. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.

=======================================


D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.

Unfortunately, the reason you are harping on the Ten Commandments is that you think that the command to "Remember the Sabbath ..." is the important one. With all the murder, genocide, and other crimes going on in the world today, I can't imagine how you reached that conclusion. Besides, you think that the Sabbath commandment tells us to go to church on Saturday. It doesn't. The Sabbath commandment says nothing about going to church. The gist of the Sabbath commandment is that everyone gets a day off. The message is, give your employees the day off, give your servants the day off, give your family the day off.

 

[Dale]

Often in "pop culture" it is assumed that only Sabbath keeping groups like Seventh-day Adventists will admit to the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments (including the Sabbath commandment) were the moral law of God even as far back as Eden. (So then no "taking God's name in vain" for Adam and Eve).

But as it turns out - a great many denominations are on record as admitting to this detail.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson


Of course the reason that Sabbath keeping groups accept the Bible detail of the Sabbath in Eden -- and for all mankind -- includes some of the obvious texts.

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind and not mankind for the Sabbath" -- which speaks of the "making" of both mankind and the Sabbath.

Gen 2:1-3 - the making of Sabbath
Gen 1-2:3 the making of mankind and the Sabbath.
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


Ex 20:11 points make to that singular 7 day event for the making of the Sabbath.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall mankind come before Me to worship"
Is 56:6-8 - gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping

And of course both the Sunday and Sabbath groups agree that the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart" was made "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"
Just as the TEN commandments with their command "Do not take God's name in vain" was included in the moral law of God given to Israel.

============================================



=========================================
Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   
   
   
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
   
   
   
7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
5. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
6. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.

=======================================


D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.

I'm not sure how these people you are quoting reached their conclusions about the relevance of the Ten Commandments in modern times but here are some things they should have thought about.


The moral teaching of Jesus is very well summarized in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew and the Sermon on the Plain in Luke. Jesus doesn't say anything about observing the Sabbath in the Sermon on the Mount or the Sermon on the Plain. Jesus doesn't say anything about the Ten Commandments in the Sermon on the Mount or the Sermon on the Plain. It is certainly true that on many points, Jesus makes the Old Testament law more strict. Yet He does not make the Ten Commandments the foundation of his teaching nor does he treat them as a useful summary of OT law.


The parables of Jesus contain the core of His teaching, particularly the points that require a bit of study. The parables of Jesus contain no mention of Sabbath observance, or any mention of the Ten Commandments. For that matter, in the entire New Testament there is no command for Christians to specifically obey the Ten Commandments.


In Acts 15, the Apostles meet in Jerusalem to decide under what conditions Gentiles, or non-Jews, may become Christians. In a letter to three churches, writing in the name of the Holy Spirit, they urge abstinence from sexual immorality but otherwise lay no new or unfamiliar burdens on non-Jewish Christians. The letter doesn't say to follow the Ten Commandments and it doesn't say to observe the Jewish Sabbath.


The Book of Acts doesn't spell out the reasoning of the Apostles in this decision. I believe that the normal Christian day of worship had already been changed to Sunday. In any case, observing the laws connected to the Sabbath would only make sense if you live in a community that observes a Sabbath.

 

[Major1]

Unfortunately, the reason you are harping on the Ten Commandments is that you think that the command to "Remember the Sabbath ..." is the important one. With all the murder, genocide, and other crimes going on in the world today, I can't imagine how you reached that conclusion. Besides, you think that the Sabbath commandment tells us to go to church on Saturday. It doesn't. The Sabbath commandment says nothing about going to church. The gist of the Sabbath commandment is that everyone gets a day off. The message is, give your employees the day off, give your servants the day off, give your family the day off.

Agreed.

The Christian church simply does not honor the Sabbath/Saturday.

The Christian church honors Sunday because it is the day of the Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now the real question must be asked. WHY is there so much argument from the SDA's on whether anyone worships of Saturday or Sunday or even Wednesday for that matter?????

Probably the strangest view of the mark of the beast can be found among the Seventh Day Adventists. Because they are so unscripturally obsessed with the Saturday Sabbath, they have dreamed up a new way to oppose the worship of God on Sunday.

They are adamant about the day of Saturday because They think the mark of the beast is Sunday worship!

 

[Major1]

I'm not sure how these people you are quoting reached their conclusions about the relevance of the Ten Commandments in modern times but here are some things they should have thought about.


The moral teaching of Jesus is very well summarized in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew and the Sermon on the Plain in Luke. Jesus doesn't say anything about observing the Sabbath in the Sermon on the Mount or the Sermon on the Plain. Jesus doesn't say anything about the Ten Commandments in the Sermon on the Mount or the Sermon on the Plain. It is certainly true that on many points, Jesus makes the Old Testament law more strict. Yet He does not make the Ten Commandments the foundation of his teaching nor does he treat them as a useful summary of OT law.


The parables of Jesus contain the core of His teaching, particularly the points that require a bit of study. The parables of Jesus contain no mention of Sabbath observance, or any mention of the Ten Commandments. For that matter, in the entire New Testament there is no command for Christians to specifically obey the Ten Commandments.


In Acts 15, the Apostles meet in Jerusalem to decide under what conditions Gentiles, or non-Jews, may become Christians. In a letter to three churches, writing in the name of the Holy Spirit, they urge abstinence from sexual immorality but otherwise lay no new or unfamiliar burdens on non-Jewish Christians. The letter doesn't say to follow the Ten Commandments and it doesn't say to observe the Jewish Sabbath.


The Book of Acts doesn't spell out the reasoning of the Apostles in this decision. I believe that the normal Christian day of worship had already been changed to Sunday. In any case, observing the laws connected to the Sabbath would only make sense if you live in a community that observes a Sabbath.

SDA False prophet Ellen G. White considered Roman Catholicism the Beast and wrongly thought Catholicism changed the Saturday Sabbath to Sunday.

Hence, with her convoluted mentality and theology she concluded Sunday is the mark of the beast: ......…

"What then is the change of the Sabbath, but the sign, or mark, of the authority of the Roman Church -- 'the mark of the beast'?
[Ellen G. White, The Great Controversy, 1950 ed., p. 448.]

Actually it is also very easy to disprove the false concept that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast.

Since one must have the mark of the beast to buy or sell (Rev. 13:16,17), then if one can buy or sell without Sunday worship, then Sunday worship can’t be the mark of the beast.

 

[BobRyan]

Often in "pop culture" it is assumed that only Sabbath keeping groups like Seventh-day Adventists will admit to the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments (including the Sabbath commandment) were the moral law of God even as far back as Eden. (So then no "taking God's name in vain" for Adam and Eve).

But as it turns out - a great many denominations are on record as admitting to this detail.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson


Of course the reason that Sabbath keeping groups accept the Bible detail of the Sabbath in Eden -- and for all mankind -- includes some of the obvious texts.

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind and not mankind for the Sabbath" -- which speaks of the "making" of both mankind and the Sabbath.

Gen 2:1-3 - the making of Sabbath
Gen 1-2:3 the making of mankind and the Sabbath.
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


Ex 20:11 points make to that singular 7 day event for the making of the Sabbath.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall mankind come before Me to worship"
Is 56:6-8 - gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping

And of course both the Sunday and Sabbath groups agree that the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart" was made "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"
Just as the TEN commandments with their command "Do not take God's name in vain" was included in the moral law of God given to Israel.

============================================

Could you quote this Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of Faith that you refer to? I don't think I have seen these particular documents.

=========================================
Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   
   
   
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
   
   
   
7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
5. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
6. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.

=======================================


D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.

I'm not sure how these people you are quoting reached their conclusions about the relevance of the Ten Commandments

The point is that the Bible texts they reference and the case they make is so incredibly obvious that BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath debate AGREE.

That is seldom the case on many of the debate topics. so it is nice to have the "easy" part identified up front

SDA False prophet Ellen G. White considered Roman Catholicism the Beast and wrongly thought Catholicism changed the Saturday Sabbath to Sunday.

Hence, with her convoluted mentality and theology she concluded Sunday ...<obligatory rant deleted here> ...

A great example of derailing the thread -

notice how the Sunday groups listed - have no problem admitting to the Bible facts that are sooo obvious that BOTH sides agree??

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

 

[BobRyan]

Unfortunately, the reason you are harping on the Ten Commandments is that you think that the command to "Remember the Sabbath ..." is the important one.

Sadly for that spin - the detail you are missing here is that even the Sunday groups agree with ALL TEN of the commandments being written on the heart under the NEW Covenant and applicable to all mankind.

IN that context your argument is "at best" (Well the TEN commandments written on the heart under the New Covenant can't have one of the commandments given any sort of focus or attention).

Which is "interesting" creative writing but why not first address the basic details that you already admit you are confused about - and that BOTH sides already agree to because they are so obvious in scripture?

Why "skip over all of that"??

 

[BobRyan]

here are some things they should have thought about.

The moral teaching of Jesus is very well summarized in the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew and the Sermon on the Plain in Luke. Jesus doesn't say anything about observing the Sabbath

Jesus also does not say anything about "do not take God's name in vain" and the Bible scholars on both sides of the Sabbath vs Sunday discussion knew that. A key detail you keep sidestepping.

They knew that Matthew 5 was nothing at all of a "Bible digest saying to ignore everything not in Matthew 5"

Thus they could not use your "solution".

in the Sermon on the Mount or the Sermon on the Plain. Jesus doesn't say anything about the Ten Commandments in the Sermon on the Mount or the Sermon on the Plain.

But He does in Matthew 19 when He says "KEEP the Commandments" and is asked "which ones".

All those Bible scholars knew that - so they could not take the narrow approach of "just look here not there" that you suggest.

It is certainly true that on many points, Jesus makes the Old Testament law more strict. Yet He does not make the Ten Commandments the foundation of his teaching nor does he treat them as a useful summary of OT law.

Until you read the teaching of Jesus in places like Mark 7:6-13 and Matthew 19.

The bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion knew this and could not do as you suggest in ignoring that teaching of Jesus or the rest of the NEW Testament.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" where those commandments include "the fifth commandment as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

No wonder Jesus teaches that the "Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 as Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew and as they reference

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew this obvious Bible detail and could not simply "ignore texts" to get to a less compelling position.

In Acts 15, the Apostles meet in Jerusalem to decide under what conditions Gentiles, or non-Jews, may become Christians. In a letter to three churches, writing in the name of the Holy Spirit, they urge abstinence from sexual immorality but otherwise lay no new or unfamiliar burdens on non-Jewish Christians. The letter doesn't say to follow the Ten Commandments

It does not say to Love God, It does not say " Do not take God's name in vain" it does not say to Honor parents, it does not say to not murder. etc. It does not say it is a replacement for the Bible.

Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew this obvious Bible detail and could not simply "ignore" the rest of scripture for gentiles AS IF Acts 15 were saying "ignore the word of God - just read these 4 sentences" -- they needed a much more compelling solution.

Why get stuck on "the easy part" that BOTH sides already admit to seeing in the actual Bible?

===========================

In short thanks for explaining where you think all Bible scholars in the world are wrong when they agree to certain obvious Bible details about the TEN commandments - but as you see in the examples above - a more narrow less defensible position was not an option for them. They needed a position that would stand up to at least some level of "close review" as compared to the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

you think that the command to "Remember the Sabbath ..." is the important one. With all the murder, genocide, and other crimes going on in the world today, I can't imagine how you reached that conclusion. Besides, you think that the Sabbath commandment tells us to go to church on Saturday. It doesn't. .

Ex 20 says "the SEVENTH day is the SABBATH of the LORD" Ex 20:10
Lev 23:1-3 says the weekly Sabbath is a day of "solemn assembly and holy convocation"
Isaiah 66:23 says "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" for all eternity after the cross in the NEW Earth.
In Acts 13, and Acts 17:1-5 we have BOTH gentiles and Jews assembling "Sabbath after Sabbath" for worship and for Gospel preaching. In Acts 18:4 it is "every Sabbath"

Christ said "the Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
Isaiah 56:6-7 specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" where those commandments are the ones where "the fifth commandment is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

No wonder the "saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Your solution could just as easily say "why focus on not taking God's name in vain what with all the genocide ad other crimes in the world"... No Bible scholar could settle for such a system of theology.

Not saying you could not do it - you have free will and can do as you please but the Bible scholars coming up with more solid Bible supportable foundations for entire denominations would need something substantive that would hold up to closer review.

 

[Major1]

Often in "pop culture" it is assumed that only Sabbath keeping groups like Seventh-day Adventists will admit to the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments (including the Sabbath commandment) were the moral law of God even as far back as Eden. (So then no "taking God's name in vain" for Adam and Eve).

But as it turns out - a great many denominations are on record as admitting to this detail.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson


Of course the reason that Sabbath keeping groups accept the Bible detail of the Sabbath in Eden -- and for all mankind -- includes some of the obvious texts.

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind and not mankind for the Sabbath" -- which speaks of the "making" of both mankind and the Sabbath.

Gen 2:1-3 - the making of Sabbath
Gen 1-2:3 the making of mankind and the Sabbath.
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


Ex 20:11 points make to that singular 7 day event for the making of the Sabbath.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall mankind come before Me to worship"
Is 56:6-8 - gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping

And of course both the Sunday and Sabbath groups agree that the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart" was made "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"
Just as the TEN commandments with their command "Do not take God's name in vain" was included in the moral law of God given to Israel.

============================================



=========================================
Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   
   
   
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
   
   
   
7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
5. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
6. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.

=======================================


D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.



The point is that the Bible texts they reference and the case they make is so incredibly obvious that BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath debate AGREE.

That is seldom the case on many of the debate topics. so it is nice to have the "easy" part identified up front



A great example of derailing the thread -

notice how the Sunday groups listed - have no problem admitting to the Bible facts that are sooo obvious that BOTH sides agree??

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

Too much Gibber Jabber for me to respond. Good luck to the rest of you.

 

[Major1]

Jesus also does not say anything about "do not take God's name in vain" and the Bible scholars on both sides of the Sabbath vs Sunday discussion knew that. A key detail you keep sidestepping.

They knew that Matthew 5 was nothing at all of a "Bible digest saying to ignore everything not in Matthew 5"

Thus they could not use your "solution".



But He does in Matthew 19 when He says "KEEP the Commandments" and is asked "which ones".

All those Bible scholars knew that - so they could not take the narrow approach of "just look here not there" that you suggest.



Until you read the teaching of Jesus in places like Mark 7:6-13 and Matthew 19.

The bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion knew this and could not do as you suggest in ignoring that teaching of Jesus or the rest of the NEW Testament.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of GOD" where those commandments include "the fifth commandment as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

No wonder Jesus teaches that the "Sabbath was MADE for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 as Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew and as they reference

For all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew this obvious Bible detail and could not simply "ignore texts" to get to a less compelling position.



It does not say to Love God, It does not say " Do not take God's name in vain" it does not say to Honor parents, it does not say to not murder. etc. It does not say it is a replacement for the Bible.

Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath discussion well knew this obvious Bible detail and could not simply "ignore" the rest of scripture for gentiles AS IF Acts 15 were saying "ignore the word of God - just read these 4 sentences" -- they needed a much more compelling solution.

Why get stuck on "the easy part" that BOTH sides already admit to seeing in the actual Bible?

===========================

In short thanks for explaining where you think all Bible scholars in the world are wrong when they agree to certain obvious Bible details about the TEN commandments - but as you see in the examples above - a more narrow less defensible position was not an option for them. They needed a position that would stand up to at least some level of "close review" as compared to the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

You said...……….
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And right here by your own words you show me the lack of Bible understanding that is needed to rightly study the Word of God.

Now in Christian love and with all due respect to you allow me to reach out and help you.

First of all lets do the CONTEXT shall we. Colossians 1:16...……..
"For by Him (Christ) all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him."

So according to the Word of God, WHO is the Creator of ALL things?????

JESUS the CHRIST. That means HE created the universe, the Earth, Adam, Eve You and me. That is Christianity 101 my brother.

Now then, lets go to Luke 24:25-27...…….
"Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself."

By reading the Word of God we see that Jesus has predated Himself that He was before Moses.

John 8:58...…….
"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

What then did John the revalator say about Christ in John 1:1-3...…..
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Now then Bob, are you still with me???????

Again YOU said clearly...……………………..
"Jesus also does not say anything about "do not take God's name in vain".

But now we know from the Word of God that Jesus predates creation, He was before the prohets and He was before time.

Now having shown you that from the Bible......WHO do YOU think gave Moses the commandments on Mt. Sinai and WHO said to Moses these words
" You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him".

Bob.....do you not realize that the Pre-incarnate Christ is the one who has given us His precious WORD.

HE told ALL of the prophets what to write!!!!

 

[Dale]

Often in "pop culture" it is assumed that only Sabbath keeping groups like Seventh-day Adventists will admit to the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments (including the Sabbath commandment) were the moral law of God even as far back as Eden. (So then no "taking God's name in vain" for Adam and Eve).

But as it turns out - a great many denominations are on record as admitting to this detail.

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson


Of course the reason that Sabbath keeping groups accept the Bible detail of the Sabbath in Eden -- and for all mankind -- includes some of the obvious texts.

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind and not mankind for the Sabbath" -- which speaks of the "making" of both mankind and the Sabbath.

Gen 2:1-3 - the making of Sabbath
Gen 1-2:3 the making of mankind and the Sabbath.
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.


Ex 20:11 points make to that singular 7 day event for the making of the Sabbath.

Ex 20
11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall mankind come before Me to worship"
Is 56:6-8 - gentiles specifically singled out for Sabbath keeping

And of course both the Sunday and Sabbath groups agree that the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 "I will write My LAW on their heart" was made "with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah"
Just as the TEN commandments with their command "Do not take God's name in vain" was included in the moral law of God given to Israel.

============================================



=========================================
Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
   
   
   
2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
   
   
   
3. Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
   
   
   
4. To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
   
   
5. The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
   
   
   
6. Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
   
   
   
7. The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
5. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
6. Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.

=======================================


D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.



The point is that the Bible texts they reference and the case they make is so incredibly obvious that BOTH sides of the Sunday vs Sabbath debate AGREE.

That is seldom the case on many of the debate topics. so it is nice to have the "easy" part identified up front



A great example of derailing the thread -

notice how the Sunday groups listed - have no problem admitting to the Bible facts that are sooo obvious that BOTH sides agree??

I am glad these Sunday sources all affirm the Ten Commandments for Christians.

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

Why do you keep repeating the same thing? I have already shown that your use of the Westminster Confession is puzzling at best, if not dishonest.

 

[Dale]

Sadly for that spin - the detail you are missing here is that even the Sunday groups agree with ALL TEN of the commandments being written on the heart under the NEW Covenant and applicable to all mankind.

IN that context your argument is "at best" (Well the TEN commandments written on the heart under the New Covenant can't have one of the commandments given any sort of focus or attention).

Which is "interesting" creative writing but why not first address the basic details that you already admit you are confused about - and that BOTH sides already agree to because they are so obvious in scripture?

Why "skip over all of that"??

I don't remember saying that I am confused about anything.
I don't always know why other people contradict themselves but that doesn't mean that I am confused about the meaning of Scripture.

 

[Dale]

Ex 20 says "the SEVENTH day is the SABBATH of the LORD" Ex 20:10
Lev 23:1-3 says the weekly Sabbath is a day of "solemn assembly and holy convocation"
Isaiah 66:23 says "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" for all eternity after the cross in the NEW Earth.
In Acts 13, and Acts 17:1-5 we have BOTH gentiles and Jews assembling "Sabbath after Sabbath" for worship and for Gospel preaching. In Acts 18:4 it is "every Sabbath"

Christ said "the Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
Isaiah 56:6-7 specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" where those commandments are the ones where "the fifth commandment is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

No wonder the "saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Your solution could just as easily say "why focus on not taking God's name in vain what with all the genocide ad other crimes in the world"... No Bible scholar could settle for such a system of theology.

Not saying you could not do it - you have free will and can do as you please but the Bible scholars coming up with more solid Bible supportable foundations for entire denominations would need something substantive that would hold up to closer review.

Bob Ryan in post #53:
"Isaiah 56:6-7 specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping"


Isaiah spoke in Old Testament terms. Sabbath as used here could mean any legitimate religious festival. It may not refer to the weekly Sabbath that you are so concerned with. As I pointed out earlier, the Sabbath commandment doesn't say to go to church on Saturday. You are misreading it.

 

[BobRyan]

you think that the command to "Remember the Sabbath ..." is the important one. With all the murder, genocide, and other crimes going on in the world today, I can't imagine how you reached that conclusion. Besides, you think that the Sabbath commandment tells us to go to church on Saturday. It doesn't. .

Ex 20 says "the SEVENTH day is the SABBATH of the LORD" Ex 20:10
Lev 23:1-3 says the weekly Sabbath is a day of "solemn assembly and holy convocation"
Isaiah 66:23 says "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" for all eternity after the cross in the NEW Earth.
In Acts 13, and Acts 17:1-5 we have BOTH gentiles and Jews assembling "Sabbath after Sabbath" for worship and for Gospel preaching. In Acts 18:4 it is "every Sabbath"

Christ said "the Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27
Isaiah 56:6-7 specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" where those commandments are the ones where "the fifth commandment is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

No wonder the "saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Your solution could just as easily say "why focus on not taking God's name in vain what with all the genocide ad other crimes in the world"... No Bible scholar could settle for such a system of theology.

Not saying you could not do it - you have free will and can do as you please but the Bible scholars coming up with more solid Bible supportable foundations for entire denominations would need something substantive that would hold up to closer review.

Bob Ryan in post #53:
"Isaiah 56:6-7 specifically singles out gentiles for Sabbath keeping"

Isaiah spoke in Old Testament terms. Sabbath as used here could mean any legitimate religious festival.

it refers to the weekly Sabbath. gentiles were not "allowed" to keep annual Sabbaths such as Passover -- unless they went through some unusual steps.

As I pointed out earlier, the Sabbath commandment doesn't say to go to church on Saturday. .

As I pointed out above ...

Lev 23:1-3 says the weekly Sabbath is a day of "solemn assembly and holy convocation"
Isaiah 66:23 says "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship" for all eternity after the cross in the NEW Earth.
In Acts 13, and Acts 17:1-5 we have BOTH gentiles and Jews assembling "Sabbath after Sabbath" for worship and for Gospel preaching. In Acts 18:4 it is "every Sabbath"

 

[BobRyan]

Unfortunately, the reason you are harping on the Ten Commandments is that you think that the command to "Remember the Sabbath ..." is the important one.

Sadly for that spin - the detail you are missing here is that even the Sunday groups agree with ALL TEN of the commandments being written on the heart under the NEW Covenant and applicable to all mankind.

IN that context your argument is "at best" (Well the TEN commandments written on the heart under the New Covenant can't have one of the commandments given any sort of focus or attention).

Which is "interesting" creative writing but why not first address the basic details that you already admit you are confused about - and that BOTH sides already agree to because they are so obvious in scripture?

Why "skip over all of that"??

I don't remember saying that I am confused about anything.
I don't always know why other people contradict themselves but that doesn't mean that I am confused about the meaning of Scripture.

You make the argument that it is my Bible-Sabbath focus that leads me to notice all these Bible details I have pointed out -- my response is that the SUNDAY groups ALSO admit to the same Bible details you cannot dismiss it all as "because you choose to honor the Bible Sabbath".