Sabbath for Christians; Obligation or Not?

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MarkRohfrietsch

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Sabbath for Christians; Obligation or Not?
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  1. Topic: Sabbath for Christians; Obligation or Not?
  2. Affirmative: BobRyan
    Opposing: bugkiller
  3. Rounds: 5
  4. Alternating rounds starting each with BobRyanbeing the first post.for a total of 10 posts.
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9. Starting date: As soon as possible.


Link to Peanut Gallery here:
PEANUT GALLERY-FORMAL DEBATE-Sabbath for Christians; Obligation or Not?
 

BobRyan

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[FONT=&quot]Introduction and overview for the Bible Creation Sabbath Affirmative[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]There are a number of annual Sabbaths listed in Leviticus 23 - some of them are feasts (for example Passover) and some of them are not (such as the Day of Atonement) - but all of the annual Sabbaths are based on animal sacrifices pointing forward to the death of Christ.

My affirmative is in regard to the Sabbath Commandment - the weekly Sabbath as found in the Ten Commandments and spoken by God in Exodus 20:8-11 that summarizes the Genesis 1:2-2:3 event and calls for us to "remember the Sabbath day" in that Genesis 2 context.

James 2 quotes from the Ten Commandments (as does Paul in Romans 7, Romans 13 and Ephesians 6:2 ) and James says that to break one is to break them all.

"Whoever keeps the whole Law and yet stumbles in one point is guilty of all" James 2:10 NASB And then in vs 10 and 11 James gives example of keeping one of the Ten Commandments and yet stumbling in another.

James concludes by saying "So speak and so act as those who ARE to be judged by the Law of Liberty" James 2:12

A defense of the 4th Commandment therefore must include a defense of the Ten Commandments themselves because if it can be shown that the Law of God is dead - then it matters not that you are breaking one but keeping others.

It is a simple fact that a great many denominations, and bible scholars have argued in favor of the continued authority of the Ten Commandments both Protestant and Catholic as well as Evangelical. However it is not my purpose to argue that "popularity makes right".

My argument will be as follows.

1. The Ten Commandments are still valid for NT saints. The Saints of the New Testament are stated by God to be those who "keep the Commandments of God AND hold to their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 NASB.
2. Scripture includes the Ten Commandments in what God calls "the Commandments of God".
3. The Law of God cannot be edited/bent/downsized by the traditions of man.
4. The Saturday Sabbath Commandment in the Old Testament is a memorial of creation and is one of the Ten Commandments.
5. The New Testament shows Sabbath after Sabbath Gospel centered worship services for both Jews and Gentiles.
6. The 7th day - Sabbath is to be kept in the New Earth -- long after the cross.
7. The Sabbath Commandment was made for mankind in Eden, a benefit and blessing for mankind.
8. The OT scope for the Sabbath Commandment states that it is to be kept by "all mankind" in the New Earth.
9. In the New Testament - Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. In the Old Testament the saturday Sabbath is the "Holy Day of the Lord" in the Bible. And that it is the Day that Jesus in the New Testament attended worship services.
10. The Sabbath of Creation week was not given as a promise of salvation to Adam - but as a memorial of Creation. Animal sacrifices were not part of the sanctified holy Sabbath in Eden and are not part of the post-cross New Earth celebration of Sabbath day for all mankind "From Sabbath to Sabbath".

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This first affirmative will deal with points 1, 2 and 3.

In Matthew 22, prior to the cross Christ stated that the foundation and basis for all the Law of God - is the Lev 19:18 command saying "you shall Love your neighbor as yourself, I am the Lord" NASB. And also Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" NASB.

In Matt 22 Jesus said that these two OT commandments form not only the basis for the Law - but also the writings of the Prophets in the OT.

Matt 22 (NASB)
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[FONT=&quot]34 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] But when the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered themselves together. 35 One of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]36 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And He said to him, “ ‘ You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the great and foremost commandment. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]39 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The second is like it, ‘ You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]40 [/FONT][FONT=&quot] On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]

Essentially the "Law and the Prophets" are what the NT saints would have known as "scripture" just as the Bereans "studied the scriptures daily to see if those things were so" Acts 17:11 when testing the NT Apostolic teaching of Paul.

A key reason why many Christians today accept the Law of God as given in scripture - is because the Law of God as understood by Jeremiah and his readers - forms a central part of the promise of God given in the New Covenant.

Notice how Paul quotes Jeremiah 31:31-33 in Hebrews 8:10.
[/FONT] 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. NKJV
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In scripture the Law as given at Sinai is known as the "Commandments of God" -

Nehemiah 10 (NASB)
[/FONT]28 Now the rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the gatekeepers, the singers, the temple servants and all those who had separated themselves from the peoples of the lands to the law of God, their wives, their sons and their daughters, all those who had knowledge and understanding,
29 are joining with their kinsmen, their nobles, and are taking on themselves a curse and an oath to walk in God’s law, which was given through Moses, God’s servant, and to keep and to observe all the commandments of God our Lord, and His ordinances and His statutes;

Whenever Paul references the Commandments - it is always a reference to the Ten Commandments.

Eph 6:2 "Honor your father and mother (which is the FIRST commandment with a Promise)" NASB

Romans 7:7-9
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. KJV



As John reminds us - the saints in the NT are those who "Keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 NASB

Paul tells the saints in 1Cor 7:19 that "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" NASB

Paul explains that faith in Christ does not in any way set aside or abolish the Law of God.

Romans 3

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. KJV

31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. NKJV


In the Romans 3:31 example we have the Law of God as applied to the saved saint. Just as we saw in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" NASB and in Rev 14:12 above.

But in Romans 3:19-21 we find that that same law condemns all the lost - declaring all to be sinners - all need a Savior.

In Romans 8:5-8 Paul again contrasts the Law of God between the context of the lost and the saved. We can go into that more if there is an interest.

Notice that in Mark 7 - Christ affirms the Commandments of God - and condemns the idea of editing/downsizing/modifying God's Commandments.

Mark 7
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. KJV



I do not spend much time on that one Mark 7 point - since I suppose that the opposition to the Bible Sabbath that is coming - will seek to abolish the Law of God rather than edit it.

in Christ,

Bob
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bugkiller

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Opening statements.

First I wish to say thank you for providing this subforum.

Second I whish to say thank you for allowing this discussion.

Thirdy I wish to say thank you to Mark for providing the focused title.

And I wish to thank BobRyan for taking this on.

I will be sticking to the theme of the thread as the title suggests.

I will of necessity provide rebutal to pertinent issues with Scripture.

I will show that the Sabbath of the Ten commandments is not an obligation to the Christian (without regard to ethnic origin) with Scripture.

I will show that the Sabbath is not given to the whole world nor the Christian even if they are a Jew (Israelite) with Scripture.

I will show the Sabbath ceases with Scripture.

I will prove that no one observes the Sabbath as required by the stone tablets.

I will ask for direct answers to pointed questions.

This concludes my opening remarks and now will look at the business at hand.

Since I only have 25,000 words to do such I find that I might as well start asking questions and making statements.

The following shows that the Sabbath was not given to all mankind.

Who the us being referred to in relationship to in Genesis 2:1-3 and Exodus 20:8-11? In Genesis It can not be Israel. There is no mention of any human in Genesis 2:1-3. In Exodus 20 God is talking specifically and exclusively to Israel.
Is the us all mankind?

In Deuteronomy 5:3 Moses clearly states the Ten Commandments are given only to Israel and not anyone else or before. This would include the Sabbath. This would exclude all mankind except the Israelites. The covenant is of course said to be by Moses -

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. Deut 4:13

This includes the Sabbath. The Sabbath does not make an appearance prior to the Exodus.

In Exodus 31:13 we find these words -

Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify you.

If the whole world is obligated to the sabbath? How can it be something special in an exclusive manner as the verse shows?

Since it is also widely claimed by the SDA organization the Sabbath is given to all mankind (supported with M 2:27), is Moses telling the truth? Moses sure seems to say something entirely different.

Let us peek at Exodus 20:11 -

For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The highlighted words are words of cause and reason for doing such.

The word for here is used to introcuce evidence which is also a cause.

The word wherefore states the reason and purpose.

One should note that God rested (nuwach not shabath) on the 7th day here in Exodus. God here blessed something different from Genesis 2:3 - the Sabbath. God did not bless the Sabbath in Gen 2:3. If we follow the English in all general English versions we have basicly the same thing. It makes perfect sense that there was a cause (reaon) for the action. The cause was presented first with the reason following.

The word shabath encompases the word nuwach. Not the other way around. Shabath is also translated as cease in direct relationship to the Sabbath.

The Sabbath is not a creation event nor the reason for requiring its observation as shown from the above discussion.

In Deuteronomy 5:12-15 we have ths same basic format structure of Exodus 20:8-11. What does the Scirpture say here? What is the reason that Israel must observe the sabbath? In 5:15 both the cause and reason are different from Exodus 20:11. Is Moses still correct? or is he lying? Is Moses inspired by God to write this statement in v 15? (II Tim 3:16 and we are talking about the OT Scripture/The Tanakh) The word therfore implies consequently for this stated reason as a conjunctive force. There is no option. This applies only to Israel as stated in v 3. This is a far cry from all mankind as applied with the out of context MK 2:27. It has been said God does not change with Mal 3:6 for support.

Option of sabbath keeping is implied in Romans 14 and Colossians 2.
It can not be supported with Scriptue that the Christian is a spiritual Israelite (Jew). Hence no obligation to the law. James shows the law is a single undivisible unit James 2. The law is not divided into different categories. James and Paul say all or nothing.

It has been shown that the Sabbath was indeed not given to all mankind.

This is the first step in proving the sabbath is not an obligation to the Christian.

Are the Ten Commandments valid for the Christian?

NO!

Did Jesus teach obligation to the Ten Commandments?

No!

The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it. LK 16:16 See also Mat 11:13 and John 1:17.

It is said that Jesus explained and elevated or exalted the law by some in the Sermon on the Mount. What did Jesus actually say?

We have these word series in three (3) pairs verses -

21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time....(quotes commandment)

22 But I say unto you...(says something not in the Ten Commandments or the law.

This repeats in vs 27-28 and 33-34.

We have this series of verses 31-32 -

It hath been said...(quotes someoutside of the Ten commandmnts)

But I say unto you...(something not in the Ten commandments or even the law).

We have this series twice (38-39 and 43-44) -

Ye have heard that it hath been said...(quotes something outside of the Ten Commandments)

But I say unto you...(says something outside of the Ten commandments and the law).
What does but mean?
Is Jesus teaching or expanding the law? How? Remeber Jesus said but.

Let us look at another verse John 15:10.

If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.

What commandments did Jesus keep? What ones do we know Jesus kept by the historical record found in the Gospels? Rhetorical question. Of course Jesus kept the Ten commandments. What commandments did Jesus say He kept? An obvious rhetorical question. His Father's commandments.

What commandments did Jesus ask us to keep? Rhetorical question. Jesus did not ask us to keep the ones He did - His Father's commandments. Jesus asked us to keep what? His commandments is what I read.

The above vers also shows the word commandments does not strictly apply to the Ten commandments. John applies the word commandments to those of Jesus and not the law. Thus the word commandments requiring it to always be the Ten commandments is a code word.

This is also illustrated in I John 3:23 - And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

The first two His pronouns are obviously referring to God the Father. The last pronoun refers to His Son Jesus Christ, who gave the commandment to love one another.
There is more evidence Jesus taught something different from the law in the Gospels.
It is shown the law was no longer taught even by God (Jesus).

We have not even got out of the Gospels. Is this contradictory to the Scripture? No. It is contradictory to the law. How is this not contradictory to the Scripture then?

Easy when one reads all the Scripture.

Besides the fact the Sabbath will cease according to what Hosea says in 2:11 we have Jeremiah 31:31-34 implying the same when all the Scritpure is considered.


31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

The first one should notice here is the lack of details. The recod of Acts shows without doubt Gentiles are included in this New or different covenant without having to comply with the requirements of the law to join themselves to the Lord (IOW the covenant made with Israel - Ex 12:48). Circumcision is required. This is not spiritual but physical circumcision. This has no relationship to what Paul states in Romans 2:28-29. Inward circumsicion has nothing to do with the law or salvation.

All the words highlighted are very important in regard to the New Covenant and obligation to the Christian. They show that indeed it is a different covenant. Therefore the Christian is not obligated to two (2) covenants. The indication is to replace one covenant with another.

Verse 31 says I will. What does Gad say He will do? God will make (cut) something. The Hebrew word make here implies cut stone. Does the verse say refurbish the old stone? That would be cutting stone. No! The verse says new, new thing, fresh (chadash pronounced khä·däsh' [2319]) stone according to the lexicon. I does not say renew (khä·däsh' pronounced khä·dash' [2318]). And it says specifically a new covenant.

Verse 32 further clarifies and self defines this event with Not according to. This means not like. So we have the details of this new covenant will not be the same. It does not change morality or sin.

What will this New covenant be like? Good question here because that is not spelled out in Jeremiah. But we know it will not be like the existing covenant made with their fathers. We know what it will not contain. Remember the covenant with their fathers is cut on two (2) stone tablets Deut 4:13. We also know that it will be based on something other than law or the law with the wording in Heb 8:6 better promises.

In verse 33 we have a change of wording from covenant to My law. This can not be the same law (covenant) given to their fathers by the previous two (2) verses. It is not the covenant with their fathers written on the heart. There is no indication the New Covenant will be simply the movement of the existing covenant made with their fathers.

More to come. I regret having to divide my post here.

bugkiller
 
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BobRyan

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Thanks to Bugkiller for this kind remarks and that presentation of his views.

Israel is a type of the saints so the promises as they pertain to the Gospel as given to Israel apply to all the saints (See also Romans 9:1-7). For example the "New Covenant" of Jeremiah 31:31-33 made with "the house of Israel".

The Sabbath is a creation week memorial

bugkiller said:
The Sabbath is not a creation event nor the reason for requiring its observation as shown from the above discussion.

Exodus 20:8-11 explicitly states that the Sabbath commandment IS specifically the 7th day of Creation week in memorial. (So far from divorcing it from the Creation week Sabbath). This is the 4th commandment – it is part of what God calls – the “Ten Commandments” in scripture.

Exodus 20:8,11
Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy...
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

That is all past tense – God is saying at Sinai that it was already done in Genesis 2:1-3 and so God calls them to “Remember”.

All Bible Christians and Jews as well recognize this as a reference to the events of Genesis 1:2-2:3. That is simply stating the obvious.


in Exodus. God here blessed something different from Genesis 2:3 - the Sabbath. God did not bless the Sabbath in Gen 2:3.


Clearly - your argument is “with the text”.

Gen 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. NASB

Christ was raised on week-day-1. Sunday. That makes the Seventh day Saturday – not only for Jews but for Christians – since all agree that the first-day designation in the NT is Sunday.


The Ten Commandments are part of the Law of God “The commandments of God” NASB given through Moses as we saw in the first Sabbath affirmative post with Nehemiah 10:29.

God's Law before Sinai

Genesis 2:1-3 the Seventh day – sanctified –set apart as we see both in Exodus 20:11 and in Genesis 2:3.

Genesis 26:5 states "5 Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." (KJV)

Paul admits that " Where there is no law there is no violation" Rom 4:15 NASB See also Rom 5:13.

Genesis 4:7 " sin is crouching at the door" NASB God tells Cain he must get the victory over the sin of hate - and ultimately murder.

Gen 18:20 God says of Sodom and Gomorrah – their “sin is exceedingly grave” NASB

Moses' readers would have at least 3 books of Moses at the time that they are reading the book of Genesis - all the issues of law and sin would be explained in the text they were reading.

Abraham kept God’s Commandments

Gen 26:5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.'' NASB


The Sabbath for all mankind

Mark 2:27 “The Sabbath was made for Man” NASB – (for mankind not just men)

In Deuteronomy 5:3 Moses clearly states the Ten Commandments are given only to Israel and not anyone else or before. This would include the Sabbath. This would exclude all mankind except the Israelites. The covenant is of course said to be by Moses –
At no point do we find the text ” the Ten Commandments are given only to Israel and not anyone else or before” in Deut 5:3. Rather Deut 5:3 points back to the national covenant of Exodus 19:5-6 where Israel is selected out among all other nations – to be a “kingdom of priests” a “Holy nation” before the Lord. This goes far beyond the simplistic “do not murder” as if only Israel was not to murder.

Genesis 6 points out that all mankind was wiped off the face of the earth for their sins of violence, murder, rebellion.

Genesis 2:1-3 God makes the Sabbath a holy day, sanctified and set apart - AFTER having already made "mankind" in Gen 1.

Gen 2
1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. NASB



by contrast we have
bugkiller said:
God did not bless the Sabbath in Gen 2:3.

Notice the language in both Genesis 2 and Exodus 20:11??

God is speaking and making the point that the Genesis 2:1-3 facts alone establish the day for man. (the day made for mankind)

Exodus 20:8,11
Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy...
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day:wherefore the Lord blessedthe sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The entire commandment references the past tense actions of God in Genesis 2:3. According to the text itself.

Most serious Bible students freely admit that "Do not Murder" and "Do not Covet" and "Have no other gods before Me" are not laws "just for Jews to think about" . The law defines sin for all mankind. Sodom and Gomorrah were held accountable to it – in Genesis 18:20 - long before Sinai.

The question most people are asking is "what about the Sabbath commandment? Is it ALSO for all mankind as are the rest of God's commandments?"

Christ's teaching on the subject is instructive - " The Sabbath was made for the good of human beings" Mark 2:27 (GNT) it was made for mankind. Not Just for Jews.

Those who constantly want to circle back and argue that Jews are also part of mankind – so they were given the Law – will get no argument from me. In fact they even more so - since not only are they part of mankind – but also they are the chosen race the holy nation of the OT.

Thus as we see the OT scope for Sabbath in Isaiah 66
" from Sabbath to Sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” Is 66:23 NASB

For all eternity in the New Earth - long after the cross and the end of animal sacrifices -

" from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, saith Jehovah." Is 66:23 Darby



Isaiah 56
“Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the Lord, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the Lord, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.” Isaiah 56:6-7 NKJV

In Acts 13 we have Sabbath after Sabbath Gospel preaching in the synagogues with BOTH Jews and Gentiles hearing the gospel. This is interesting because while most of the Jews were rejecting the Gospel presentation in Acts 13 - the gentiles were accepting it. And at no point is there a message of the form "well for those who want to hear more of the Gospel - come tomorrow to our week-day-1 Gospel centered meetings". Not a peep.

Instead it is only "the next Sabbath" that is the focus of future meetings! Acts 13:42, Acts 17:2, Acts 18:4. That is how it goes in city after city. Sabbath after Sabbath presentation and never "come back tomorrow for week-day-1 worship service for those who like what you hear today"


God's Commandments continued in the NT New Covenant

1Cor 7:19 "What matters is keeping the commandments of God" NASB

Rev 14:12 the saints are those "who KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" NASB

Bugkiller asks the question - and assumes the answer is that Jesus did not want his followers to walk as He walked - keeping the Commandments of God.

What commandments did Jesus ask us to keep? Rhetorical question. Jesus did not ask us to keep the ones He did - His Father's commandments.
By contrast John cleary goes the other way on this point.

1John 2
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

Whose commandments? – Jesus’ Commandments clearly.

Jesus walked in the manner of keeping the Commandments of God –
John says - we are to "walk as He walked".

In 1John 5:2-3 John tells us to “Love God and keep HIS Commandments” KJV
“Love God and observe the Commandments of God” NASB

No wonder then – the reference to the New Covenant that we find in Hebrews 8 strongly affirms the OT promise – of the New Covenant with God’s Law written on the mind and heart.

Jer 31 (NKJV)
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—
32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Exegesis demands that we ask the question of "context" - "what law did Jeremiah and his readers know of"?

Nehemiah 10:29 says that the OT readers understood the Law as given though Moses to be "The Commandments of God"

Nehemiah 10 NKJV
29 are joining with their kinsmen, their nobles, and are taking on themselves a curse and an oath to walk in God’s law, which was given through Moses, God’s servant, and to keep and to observe all the commandments of God our Lord, and His ordinances and His statutes;

This will help us determine the meaning of the words that Jeremiah is writing to his readers. Notice that Paul also quotes this same unchanged New Covenant promise in Hebrews 8.

No wonder then that Paul says "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19 - because this is in fact a central part of the New Covenant of Hebrews 8 and Jeremiah 31:31-33.

No wonder John tells his readers to Love God and Keep the Commandments of God in 1John 5:2-3.

bugkiller said:

the Sabbath will cease according to what Hosea says in 2:11


Hosea 2 is not a promise for saints - but a curse for rebels.

Hosea 2:8-13 is a curse on Israel for her law-breaking, for her sins. It is a warning that she will be naked, her crops destroyed, no food. God says he will abolish her solemn worship assemblies and punish her in the sight of all the nations. Many blessings 'made for mankind' can be stripped away under a curse given to those in rebellion - no question.

By contrast the promise of Isaiah 66 is no curse it all and it promises to the saints a New heaven and a new earth and the fact that From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before God to worship.
 
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bugkiller

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Continuing -

Here is Paul's full quote of Jeremeiah 31:31-34 as found in the NASB -

“ Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “ For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.
11 “ And they shall not teach everyone his fellow citizen,
And everyone his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
For all will know Me,
From the least to the greatest of them.
12 “ For I will be merciful to their iniquities,
And I will remember their sins no more.”

Only v 10 was quoted. That is only one third of the sentence found in the KJV. Yes the NASB does have two (2) sentences. This is a difference in versions of Scripture. It does not distract from the truth. Here just for comparison of the text form Jeremiah and Hebrews -

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. - Jeremiah 31

Hebrews 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.




It has been made to appear the new covenant talked about is really what is called the Old Covenant with movement from stone to the heart. This is not what the Bible says.
  • The Bible does not say the covenant made with Israel is the exclusive all inclusive law of God.
  • Nor does it say the covenant law will be written on anyone heart.
  • Nor does it say the Ten commandments will be written on the heart.
Granted the covenant made with Israel includes God's law. It must not include God's all inclusive law according to Jeremiah. The words Not according to... are very difficult to get around. Here again we have self defining text. Both Paul and Jeremiah show changed with the different words - covenant to My law. Besides Hebrews shows both the law and the meaning of the sabbath is changed. Hebrews talks about the rest they could not enter into and shows that very rest is now available to all in chapters 3 and 4.

How can the new covenant possibly be a renewal of the old covenant?

How can there be any question what covenants are being talked about?

How can it be the same covenant when is it is made on better promises (v 6 not quoted) and not law (commandments)?

How can it be the same covenant when the whole world is included? This is evidenced in the Gospels, especially John who uses the words "whosoever believeth."

It is also evidenced in Acts (more than once - Cornelius and the Philippian jailer) and testified to by Peter. None of these people are said to have joined themselves to the Lord through the law obligating them to the sabbath as required of anyone participating in that covenant - Ex 12:48.

Thus the stranger joining themselves to the Lord are no longer Gentiles or strangers (foreigners) but as one born in the land - a covenant bound Jew (Israelite). Eph 2:11-22. To discuss the law in this much detail would change the direction of the debate. They are interrelated for sure.

It is often said that the Ten Commandments are moral. This really deals with sin and not the Ten Commandments. It would be immoral for a Jew to violate the sabbath, but not for a Gentile or a Christian. What you say? That is correct. A Christian Jew is no longer obligated to the law, hence the 7th day sabbath.

So are we arguing about the required behaviour of a Jew or the behaviour of a Christian? The sabbath is optional, especially for them - Romans 14 and Col 2. All Christians have been delivered form the law - Rom 7:6. Paul includes himself here with the word we. The covenant made with their fathers is the only place the sabbath is made mandatory for any one. There are no Jews in Jesus Christ. (Gal 3:28) Being a Christian has nothing to do with being a Jew of any sort. More about this later.

Jesus offered Himself as this rest in Mat 11:28-30 -

28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Who changed the sabbath or said it will cease? God did in Hose 2:11. Yes it is true that it is part of a curse.

To whom was the sabbath given exclusively? Israel of course as already discussed.

Is there any reference to the sabbath given to any one else? No. Not even in Mark 2:27. But wait it says specifically that the sabbath was made for man (anthrōpos)[it does not specify Israelites only], and not man for the sabbath:

Context is very important here. Jesus was answering Jews and not talking to the world.

This is not saying the sabbath was given to man as maybe implied by the giving of the law to Israel. Who was the law given to? It is Israel that God told Moses to call together before Him (God) at the mountian. It was not the Egyptians, Amalekites, Canaanites, Ebusites, Edomites, Gadites, Hivites, Moabites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Philistines, etc. Yeah there are lots more. God told Moses to call only Israelites to the meeting at the mountian. So the word you as used by God is specifically referring strictly to Israelites and not anyone else in the world. Read the text.

Remember the Sabbath is a sign (Ex 31) to Israel. So the promotion of the Sabbath given to the world (all mankind) is not correct or Moses lied. What is the truth? It can not be special to Israel and for the whole world at the same time. One cancels the other here.

Wait Abraham had the law thus the Sabbath. That is supposedly backed by Gen 26:5. How can this be when the law came 430 years later - Gal 3:17. Remember we are talking about the sabbath and not the law. The law was also for a set period of time according to 3:19 - added...till the seed should come... Who is that Seed? Has to be Jesus. That is just one more verse showing the law thus the Sabbath is a has been. The Sabbath is only manditory through the law and its covenant.

Doc Samuele Bacchiocci an SDA theologian and professor at Andrews University says this in From Sabbath to Sunday, page 79 (1977) (has an imprimatur) "To Speculate on how the partiarichs kept the sabbath would be a fruitless endeavor since it would rest more on imagination than on available information." IOW it is nothing more than speculation or assumption based on nothing but silence. But wait others can not say the opposite is true based on the same facts. That is right and others are not claiming Abraham obeyed the law and observed the Sabbath either. Thus they have to prove nothing in this regard. Abraham can not have observed what did not exist. See Gal 3:17, 19. The statements found there are from the most learned Pharisee and Rabbi of the day - Paul.

Could it be said the sabbath serves man and man does not serve the sabbath from MK 2:27 and be correct in communicating the intended meaning? Yes.

Did man change the sabbath? No.

Is the sabbath forever? No!

Here is Hosea 2:11 - I will also cause all her mirth to cease (shabath), her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

This is a stand alone sentence. It may be said it is part of a curse. That would be correct. What are we debating here? Is it not the Christian's obligation to the Sabbath? If the Sabbath ceases how can anyone be obligated to the Sabbath? The cause does not matter. Remember to whom the Sabbath was given.

Shabath is the same word found in the self defining text of Gen 2:1-3. It means specifically to cease and desist as in do no more such as a court order. The word ended in Gen 2:1-3 means stopped or more like finished and completed. So we have a self defining text here.

It maybe argued that Hosea says "her sabbaths" and not the sabbath found in Ex 20:8-11. Who did God gve the Sabbath to? Israel. Thus the Sabbath is her possession and can be properly referred to as her sabbath(s) [meaning the weekly Sabbath] when speaking to her (Israel). This is a list of holy days also found in Leviticus 23 and Colossians 2.

Moving more to the NT we find no command to keep the Sabbath by anyone including Jesus (God). This holds true even in the exchange of Jesus and the rich young ruler. It has been said that the Sabbath is a given and does not need repeating. Why are not the commandments about murder, adultery, theft, and lying not givens as well?

Matthew 5 statements have already been covered showing that Jesus did not teach the law. The word sabbath does not appear in the Sermon on the Mount.

John 15:10 - If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.

What commandments did Jesus keep? Is it not the Ten commandments and the law of Moses? Did Jesus keep something else? If so what? It has already been shown that Jesus did not teach obligation to the law and the Ten Commandments with the Sermon on the Mount.

Luke 16:16 Shows something different from the law was being preached hence no sabbath - The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

John 1:17 says - For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. This also shows Jesus did not preach the law, hence no sabbath. Only the law contains the Sabbath requirement. No where does Jesus teach or command the Sabbath. We and the Jews are delivered from the law and its requirement to keep the sabbath - Rom 7:6. One can not be free and bound to the same thing at the same time.

We come to Acts of the Apostles. The important chapter is 15 is well known in this matter.

What is the accusation? Is it not all Christians must be physically circumcised and follow the law of Moses? (verse 5) The law of Moses is the Book of the Law and spoken of as the law. This would include Sabbath observance.

What is the out come of this council? Did it come only from the Apostles or did it have some other authority? Seems like v 28 the Holy Ghost approves the rule of the council as the requirements for the non Jewish believers. The Sabbath as important as it is made to be is not included. Therefore there is no requirement to so observe.

Must continue with next post.

bugkiller
 
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So far we have seen these points from scripture -

[FONT=&quot]My argument will be as follows.

1. The Ten Commandments are still valid for NT saints. The Saints of the New Testament are stated by God to be those who "keep the Commandments of God AND hold to their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 NASB.
2. Scripture includes the Ten Commandments in what God calls "the Commandments of God".(Mark 7:7-13, Exodus 20:8-11, Nehemiah 10:29)
3. The Law of God cannot be edited/bent/downsized by the traditions of man. (Mark 7:7-13)
4. The Saturday Sabbath Commandment in the Old Testament is a memorial of creation and is one of the Ten Commandments. (Exodus 20:8-11, Genesis 2:1-3)
5. The New Testament shows Sabbath after Sabbath Gospel centered worship services for both Jews and Gentiles. Acts 13:42, Acts 17:2, Acts 18:4
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 6. The 7th day - Sabbath is to be kept in the New Earth -- long after the cross. (/Isaiah 66)
7. The Sabbath Commandment was made for mankind in Eden, a benefit and blessing for mankind. "The Sabbath was Made for Mankind" Mark 2:27 in Eden. A point agreed to by R.C Sproul, D.L. Moody, Dies Domini, Matthew Henry etc -
8. The OT scope for the Sabbath Commandment states that it is to be kept by "all mankind" in the New Earth. (Isaiah 66) "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to Worship"
[/FONT]

These Bible and historic points -a re impossible to refute or ignore -- apparently from the response so far.

As BugKiller notes

John 15:10 - If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.

What commandments did Jesus keep? Is it not the Ten commandments and the law of Moses?

And as John points out in 1John 2 and in 1John 5 - Christ's commands ARE "God's Commandments".

[FONT=&quot]1John 2[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1john 5[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]


===============================================

As Christ points out - the Ten Commandments are in fact "The Word of God".

[FONT=&quot]Mark 7
6 And He said to them, ""Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: " THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 " BUT [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]the commandment of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot]in order to keep your tradition[/FONT][FONT=&quot].
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot];(Exodus 20:12) and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13
thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''

Not only does Christ affirm that the Ten Commandments - found in the Law of Moses are STILL to be accepted as the "Word of God" in Mark 7 as noted above - but so also does Paul affirm that point.

Paul reminds us that the Jer 31:31-33 LAW of God is to be written on the heart.

In Hebrews 10 - quote of Jer 31.
[/FONT]
10 “ For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.

And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.


Why is Paul appealing to the OT text of Jer 31 and the "New Covenant" -- and the Jer 31 concept of the "Law of God" when writing to NT saints?

Easy.

Heb 4:1-2 "The GOSPEL was preached to THEM just as it was to US ALSO"

Gal 3:7 "The GOSPEL was preached to Abraham"

1Cor 10:1-4 "They all drank from the SAME spiritual ROCK and that ROCK was Christ".

And in Heb 11 the giants of FAITH - held up as models for NT saints - are in fact -- OLD Testament saints!


==========================================
[FONT=&quot]Law of Moses = NT scripture
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Gal 4:30 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]30 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Nevertheless what saith the scripture? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman”. (KJV) (Gen 21:10)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Tim 5:18 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]18 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For the scripture saith, “thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. (Deut 25:4)And, “The labourer is worthy of his reward” (Lev 19:13). KJV [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]James 2: 8 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]8 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself” (Lev 19:18), ye do well: KJV[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]James 2: 23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]23 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]And the scripture was fulfilled[/FONT][FONT=&quot] which saith, “Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness”(Gen 15:6): and he was ”called the Friend of God”.KJV[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Rom 4:3 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]3 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]For what saith the scripture? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness”. (Gen 15:6) KJV[/FONT]


=====================


Fine -- so the Law of Moses is to be accepted by NT saints as "Scripture" according to the texts above -- but what value does "Scripture" have for NT saints? - (some may ask).



[FONT=&quot]2Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture given by inspiration from GOD and is profitable for doctrine and correction"

And of course Christ HIMSELF argued that HIS words are not at all in contrast to the Father - but that He only speaks that which the Father gives Him.

2Peter 1:20-21 NO scripture is in fact "a matter of one's own interpretation but holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God"

John 5:46-47 those who reject the teaching of Moses will reject Christ "but if you reject Moses' writings how will you believe Me"[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luke 16:31[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (NKJV)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
===========================================

Bugkiller often asks the question of whether the lost person becomes saved by Law keeping. And of course the Bible always affirms the point that this is not how a lost person relates to the Law of God. For the lost - the Law of God only condemns them as a sinner (yes still to this very day). As Paul points out in Romans 3 and Galatians 3.

But for the saved - the saints "Keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" as we already saw in Rev 14:12.

Romans 6 deals specifically with the point that those who are not under the condemnation of the Law -- are not to sin against the Law of God.

In 1John 3:4 John reminds us that "sin is transgression of the Law" as Paul also points out in Romans 4 and 5.

in Christ,

Bob
 
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bugkiller

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Continuing

He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. I Jn 2:6
This is presented to prove that one should follow the law and keep the sabbath. The reason is because Jesus did exactly that.

But we have John 15:10, Ps 14:3 and 53"3 to deal with. All of which say no one has ever kept the law except Jesus. If anything here Jesus is saying do as I tell you and not as I do. Hmmm! Ordinarlly this would be a Pharisaical type statement. We have to accept Ps 14:3 and 53:3. We can not leave out LK 16:16 either. Paul is left out for a reason.

John 15:10 is a conflicting verse in that there are two (2) sets of different commandments. Jesus did say I give you a new (kainos not neos) commandment in John 13:34. That means what Jesus said is out side of the law. It also means that it is not a renewed (neos) law. This is also shown with the little word but found in the Sermon on the Mount. Just more evidence Jesus did not preach and teach obligation to the law or the sabbath.

Is John recording what Jesus said?

What is the difference between John and Paul seeming to make contradictory statements on this very topic? None.

What else could this mean?

Does it mean to do the things Jesus did? No!

Anyone walk on water besides Jesus and Peter? No.

Does any one wash the feet of others dressed as a servant (nude)? I doubt it.

How about water baptism? Do people understand the custom of the Biblical religious bath (mikveh) of the law our baptism is based on?

Did Jesus take some vows at his baptism? No.

Would such be extra Biblical? Yes.

Who fasts for 40 days in the manner Jesus did?

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. I Jn 5

Absolutely a wonderful passage! What are those commandments?

Remember what Jesus said in John 15:10? This would contradict v 2 if it (v 2) means the Ten Commandments.

What does I John 3:23 say these commandments are?

And this is His (God the Father's) commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He (Jesus)gave us commandment.

Does this line up with Jeremiah 31:31-33? Yes!

Did Jesus ever say keep the Sabbath in any form? No!

Enough discussion about the law.

What does the NT say in regards to formal corporate worship?

The first thing one will notice is missing is a requirement to assemble on the sabbath or keep it in any way.

All we find in the NT is assembly of Jews and Gentiles on the sabbath in the synagogue. Not a single one of these assemblies mentions Christians assembling. Neither Jew nor Gentile imply Christian.

Paul went to the Jew first with the Gospel. As a Jew he was more than welcome to be in the synagogue and to speak to the Jews. He was recognized as a Jew and even invited to speak on his first visit in Acts 13:15. For convience -

14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.
15 And after the reading of the law and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent unto them, saying, Ye men and brethren, if ye have any word of exhortation for the people, say on.

This is exactly Paul's purpose to be in the synagogue per Romans 1:16 and 2:10. So contrary to what is promoted Paul's primary purpose was not the sabbath or worship.

The passage also shows Paul might have been traveling on the sabbath because there is no mention of time.

Acts 18:18-19 -

18 And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow.
19 And he came to Ephesus, and left them there: but he himself entered into the synagogue, and reasoned with the Jews.

The word but here could also be translated as and. That would easily make it the same day.

It appears tha Paul was traveling on the sabbath by v 19. This is more definite than Acts 13.

Also missing is any event recorded as occurring on the sabbath with any of Jesus' followers after the cross. All recorded events were on other days with only the first day specifically mentioned. If the sabbath is to be observed; where is Jesus on the sabbath after the cross?

Hebrews 10:25 mentions no day to assemble. It only mentions a requirement to assemble. That verse also includes a reason to assemble but no specific day.

Are there any passages saying the Christians met on the first day of the week? Yes. There are three (3) explicit passages. All date prior to the end of the first century. Thus no claims that some religious organization changed the meeting day are valid. It was already a habit.

The Didachē (The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles) circulated as early as 44 AD (disputable but one has to consider who is discounting and for what reasons) mentions the Kyriakos (Lord's day) chapter 14. Hēmera may or may not be found in The Didachē. The Kyriakos hēmera ( Rev 1:10) was widely recognized with or without the word hēmera as the Lord's day differentiating from the sabbath. While not Scripture this allows the possibility some of their source material was from The Apostles Paul and not necessarily from their letters. Yes 44 AD predates the letters. Remember The Apostles were preaching prior to writing.

The three (3) references considered are Acts 20:7, I Cor 16:1-2 and Rev 1:10 in reference to the first day of the week assembly of Christians.

7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

How there can even be a dispute here is amazing. Some say that it was nothing more than a continuation of the sabbath. But even if it is true, it is the first day of the week and no longer the sabbath. It can not be claimed it was still Saturday because it was not midnight and thus the sabbath. The sabbath is over (past) at dusk.
Who came together? The disciples and not the Jews. So if the Jews were meeting for an after synagogue meeting as an after glow (havdalah) it was somewhere else because they had departed. The point is the meeting had nothing to with the sabbath or synagogue. The place where the meeting was being held is not mentioned. Upper chamber is not a specific location such as the synagogue, a house or a place of business.

16 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. I Cor 16

Here we have the churches of Galatia and Corinth meeting on the first day of the week. Some say no this is not a meeting but something ocurring in one's home.

The phrase this is based on is lay by him in store. Does this mean at home? Many commentaries say it does. Are they right? How can this be correct according to the text alone? The first problem with the phrase is the word store. The word store is a commercial word thēsaurizō (verb) a dirivative of thēsaurizōn (treasury as in a place of deposit, a noun). Nothing to connect a domestic meaning. This has nothing to do with a personal account or holding.

What about the word lay (tithēmi)? It means to put or place.

Then we have the by him to deal with. It could also be properly translated from him. This would line up with the free will apsect of the Gospel. This is backed up with II Cor 8:1-8 as not mandatory. IOW free will. Any gifts will be from individuals collectively.

Then we must deal with the fact of where the collection is. If it is in every man's house it is not a collection and would have to be gathered when Paul came. Paul said no gathering when I come. Paul is not going to every man's house to recieve the collection. He will recieve the collection at the assembly. All ministry comes from a fixed place as illustrated in Acts by Ananias' gift in Acts 5 being brought to the church. The way they were ministering to the saints was from a single source. Thus there was a treasury of some sort to minister from. Shows the church had a treasury.

Rev 1:10 -

10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

The words in and on are the same word in Greek. So some say the verse should read -I was in the Spirit in the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

First where was John when? When did the vision start? Did the vision start before John was in the Spirit or after acknowledging what day it was? After according to the text. John did not say he was carried away into the day of the Lord. He was present in the Spirit on the Lord's day prior to the vision ocurring.

John is a disciple of Jesus and wrote other things and used the word sabbath eleven (11) times in his Gospel. Why does John change from Sabbath to Lord's Day in Revelation if he meant the sabbath? Why would John change form Sabbath to Lord's day? To appease the government of the day. Surely they and their advisors were smarter than that.

It has already been shown that Lord's day was used as the name of the meeting day of Christians. It has been shown that Christians met on the first day of the week. The same word (Kyriakos) is used I Cor 11:20 in reference to te Lord's supper we call communion. There is not word of in the GreeK in verse 10.

Thus far it has been shown that

  • the sabbath was not given to all mankind in Gen 2 or by Jesus statement in MK 2:27
  • the sabbath is exclusive property of God and given to Israel as exclusive properety
  • There is no command in the NT also called the NC to observe the sabbath
  • Jesus did not teach obligation to the law including the sabbath
  • Christians did worship God on first day of the week (Sunday) on a regular basis prior to the end of the 1st century
  • no requirement of the Christian to keep the sabbath
There are no verses that show meetings of Christians on the sabbath at the synagogue. There are verses that show Jews and Gentiles meeting at the synagogue on the sabbath. Certianly some Christians went to the synagogue on the 7th day sabbath. Those meetings were not organized by and for Christians.


John does not generally speak of commandment(s) in relationship to or with the law. In fact there are only three (3) such in instances John 14:15, I John 2:7 and II John 1:4 that could be considered referring to the law if divorced from context as stand alone truths.

John 14:15 refers to the commandments of Jesus as demonstrated with John 15:10 where 2 sets of commandments are clearly referenced.

I John 2:7 - Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

Which begining is John talking about here? Could it be the begining of the NC which John talks about? John does not promote the law in any of his writings. If one does not look at any thing but the surface they could easily misunderstand what John is saying here. Investigation and study is very important. It has been shown with John 15:10 and I John 3:23 that the law including the Ten commandments is not what John is talking about.

What does each word mean? What is the over all context of the Scripture?

What does new (kainos) mean? This must be considered in relationship to the the comparative old here. It means -
b) as respects substance
1) of a new kind, unprecedented, novel, uncommon, unheard of

Part of the context is the time of the writing of I John around 80-96 AD. By this time it is well established as a new kind unprecedented and unheard of command.

What does old (palaios) mean? The second definition listed would be the one to apply consideraing all Scripture - 2) no longer new. I John is dated aproximately 80-96 AD. This would allow a no longer new meaning to be very reasonable. It is most certianly not a reference to the old covenant called the law.

II John 1:4 - I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. I John 3:23 define exactly and limit what John is talking about in both I John 2:7 and II John 1:4.

Have to break here sorry.

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BobRyan

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[FONT=&quot]Question for the reader –

Suppose it is true that the saints are those who " keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 - and not "Those who keep the Commandments of God OR their faith in Jesus".

So far we have seen these points from scripture -

1. The Ten Commandments are still valid for NT saints. The Saints of the New Testament are stated by God to be those who " keep the Commandments of God AND hold to their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 NASB.
2. Scripture includes the Ten Commandments in what God calls "the Commandments of God".(Mark 7:7-13, Exodus 20:8-11, Nehemiah 10:29)
3. The Law of God cannot be edited/bent/downsized by the traditions of man. (Mark 7:7-13)
4. The Saturday Sabbath Commandment in the Old Testament is a memorial of creation and is one of the Ten Commandments. (Exodus 20:8-11, Genesis 2:1-3)
5. The New Testament shows Sabbath after Sabbath Gospel centered worship services for both Jews and Gentiles. Acts 13:42, Acts 17:2, Acts 18:4
6. The 7th day - Sabbath is to be kept in the New Earth -- long after the cross. (/Isaiah 66)
7. The Sabbath Commandment was made for mankind in Eden, a benefit and blessing for mankind. "The Sabbath was Made for Mankind" Mark 2:27 in Eden. A point agreed to by R.C Sproul, D.L. Moody, Dies Domini, Matthew Henry etc -
8. The OT scope for the Sabbath Commandment states that it is to be kept by "all mankind" in the New Earth. (Isaiah 66) "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to Worship"
And of course in the previous post we saw proof that -

9. Commandments of Jesus (1John 2:3-6) – are the Commandments of God (1John 5:1-4).

10. The Ten Commandments are called the “ Word of God” (Mark 7:3) by NT writers.

11. OT Saints saved by the ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6-11)of both OT and NT. Not saved by Old Covenant – for “the Gospel was preached to them just as to us also” Heb 4:1-2, Gal 3:7, 1Cor 10:1-4
12. Law of Moses is NT scripture according to NT writers – instead of just denouncing it all as “Old Covenant”. Gal 4:30, 1Tim 5:18, James 2:8, James 2:23, Rom 4:3.

13. Christ said that those who reject Moses’ teachings would reject Him. John 5:46-47, Luke 16:31.

14. The OT scripture is to be accepted as authoritative by NT saints. 2Peter 1:20-21, 2Tim 3:16 “and used for doctrine”.


The New Covenent: Jer 31:31-33
The New Covenant is quoted by Paul in Hebrews 8. Exegesis demands that we not “read into the text” whatever we like. Jeremiah’s context for “Law” determines the meaning of the text. We might wish to eisegete some other meaning into the text – but context rules.

Christ points to our obligation to the Lev 19:18 “Love your Neighbor as yourself” (Matt 22) and Deut 6:5 “Love God with all of your heart”. Reminding the reader of the times when Paul also quotes Moses as binding upon NT saints. (see point 12 above).

Only the New Covenant is a way of salvation – only it offers forgiveness and eternal – life, the Law of God written on the mind and heart, and adoption into the Family of God. That is how all the OT saints of Hebrews 11 were saved.
The old Covenant of 2Cor 3 speaks of the “Covenant of Death” – as contrasted to “Life”. No one was ever saved on that context for Old Covenant – it is simply another way to say “lost”. All those who are lost today – are lost under the Old Covenant of “obey and live” since “all have sinned”.
All the saints of Hebrews 11 – saints of the OT – were saved under the “One Gospel” of Gal 1:6-11, under the “New Covenant” - and they had the “Law written on the mind and on the heart”.

So what complaints are left?

Some complain that we should not try to keep the Law of God as saved saints since no lost person has perfectly kept the Law of God. By contrast in Matthew 22 Christ affirms the Mosaic Law of Deut 6:4 “ Love the Lord your God with all your Heart” as does Paul in Romans 13.

BugKiller said:
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. I Jn 2:6 This is presented to prove that one should follow the law and keep the sabbath. The reason is because Jesus did exactly that.

But we have John 15:10, Ps 14:3 and 53"3 to deal with. All of which say no one has ever kept the law except Jesus. If anything here Jesus is saying do as I tell you and not as I do.

By contrast we have John’s condemnation of those who do not walk as Christ Walked–

1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

The complaint stated above is seen to be an “argument with the text” itself.

[quote = BugKiller]
Did Jesus ever say keep the Sabbath in any form ? No!
…
Jesus did not preach and teach obligation to the law or the sabbath.[/quote]

Matt 5
17 ""
Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 ""For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away,
not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19 ""
Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What about the system of worship in the NT?

BugKiller said:
Are there any passages saying the Christians met on the first day of the week ?
Yes. There are three (3) explicit passages. All date prior to the end of the first century. Thus no claims that some religious organization changed the meeting day are valid. It was already a habit.

Amazing! Not one single text in all of the NT showing “cyclic week day 1 services” so the effort is then to find out if they ever met even once on the first day of the week. How odd.


Well let’s see if the “every week-day-1” argument holds up.

1Cor 16 is a great chapter to find “every week-day-1” without any mention of it given a title of honor like “week-day-1 is the Lord’s Day” AND no corporate worship at all taking place on week-day-1. Just each person saving up funds at the start of each week.


KJV
2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

(HCSB)
2 On the first day of the week, each of you is to set something aside and save to the extent that he prospers, so that no collections will need to be made when I come.

(AMP)
2 On the first [day] of each week, let each one of you [personally] put aside something and save it up as he has prospered [in proportion to what he is given], so that no collections will need to be taken after I come.

(DARBY)
2 On [the] first of [the] week let each of you put by at home, laying up [in] whatever [degree] he may have prospered, that there may be no collections when I come.

Rev 1:10 is a great place to find not one mention at all of weekday-1 nor even corporate worship, or any statement saying that the “Lord’s Day” said to refer to “week day 1” in Rev 1:10.
Mark 2:28 is a great place to find “ The Son of man is LORD of the Sabbath”

Acts 20 gives us an actual meeting on week-day-1 – proving that there was at least one time in the first century where they met on week-day-1. But the occasion is singular since they meet to break bread and hear a farewell sermon from Paul before his departure. So the much sought after link text “they met each week-day-1 to break bread” – does not turn up – no not even in Acts 20.


Conclusion for the week-day-1 Cyclic proposal:

1. No text commands the saints to observe week-day-1 as a day of worship.
2. Not a single example of “Sunday after Sunday” worship services after the ascension of Christ.

By Contrast in Acts 13 we have “Sabbath after Sabbath” gospel preaching services with BOTH Jews and Gentiles being reached. And instead of telling the new believers “come meet with us tomorrow for our usual week-day-1 service” – they get the invitation to come back “the Next Sabbath”.

And if that is not enough – the NT writers keep providing “Sabbath after Sabbath” worship service examples (Acts 17:1-5, Acts 18:4) where there is no “Come back tomorrow those of you who are believing our message” – no not once!

And then of course Hebrews 4 “ There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God”.

And Isaiah 66 “ from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to Worship”.

With the NT result that the saints are those who “ Keep the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus” Rev 14:12


D.L. Moody
I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The
Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai.
How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?
http://www.fbinstitute.com/

R.C Sproul makes this case -

A Day for Holiness | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org
A Day for Holiness
“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy” (v. 8).
- Exodus 20:8–11
It might come as a surprise, but God speaks of the fourth commandment more times in Scripture than any of the other laws He gave at Mount Sinai. …
throughout history we see a parallel between decline in religious commitment and failure to keep the Lord’s Day. This makes sense because the Sabbath is set aside for us to worship God, to consider His works, to exalt His name in holy duties, and to take our minds off ourselves and our own work. …
The Sabbath was instituted at creation, for God called the seventh day holy, and on that day He rested from His works. We, too, are to rest on the Lord’s Day.
…
Some people believe that Jesus fulfilled the Sabbath, therefore we do not have to keep it. But nowhere does Christ abrogate this one command of all the Ten . It was established at creation and will continue until glory. Confess the ways in which you fail to keep the Sabbath. Beginning this week, take serious steps to keep this law.

Charles Stanley –
Charles Stanley's Handbook for Christian Living: Biblical Answers to Life's ... - Charles F. Stanley - Google Books

3. “Why was the Sabbath CHANGED from the seventh day to the FIRST day of the week”? (p 33)

“First, it is Biblical suicide to suggest that the idea of Sabbath rest was presented for the first time in the fourth commandment.” Pg 34
The Didache by contrast to that list of known authors and documents - is of unknown authors, unknown date, and composed in an unknown location - and no consensus at all that it was done in the first century. Paul predicted errors would come in quickly -


Acts 20
28 ""Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29 ""I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;
30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them.

in Christ,

Bob[/FONT]
 
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bugkiller

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Continuing where I left off.

The citation of I John 2:3-6 has no value relating to the truth if the qualifying verses indentifying the pronouns are not considered. Same goes for I John 5:2-4.

2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And He (Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3 And hereby we do know that we know Him (Jesus), if we keep His (Jesus')commandments.
4 He that saith, I know Him (Jesus), and keepeth not His (Jesus') commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth His (Jesus') word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him (Jesus).
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

This whole passage talks about Jesus and His commandments. Verse 4 does not switch reference of pronouns. Verse 5 says we are in Jesus and not God the Father. Neither does verse 6 say we should walk as God the Father.

5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth Him (God the Father) that begat loveth Him (Jesus) also that is begotten of Him (God the Father). (The Christian is begotten of God the Father and not a man [Adam].)
2 By this we know that we love the children of God (The Father), when we love God (The Father) , and keep His (God the Father's) commandments (qualified with I John 3:23).
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His (God the Father's) commandments (qualified with I John 3:23): and his commandments are not grievous.
4 For whatsoever is born of God (born again John 3) overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Thus the mention of the above quotes is not an admission that one obeys or is obligated to the law (Ten Commandments). The word commandment(s) is a code word in the SDA language always meaning the Ten Commandments. This is illustrated to not be the case in John 15:10 - If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

It is said that I Cor 16:1-2 does not show a cyclic (repeating occurance). How odd that Paul would say to do this one time thing only on the first day of the week. If it was to be a one time thing why would it be necessary to set it aside for when Paul comes to Corinth? They could just take up a one time single collection in short order say 30 minutes or less. It also does not make sense that this would be done at home only one time as insisted. The real point that is trying to be made is the Christians were not meeting on Sunday. Why worship on the sabbath and bring an offering on Sunday? Does not make sense. Jesus sat by the treasury noting who put in what. So it was customary to bring an offering at the time of worship. Why would it be different in Corinth?

The versions quoted are not translations of the Greek text but commentaries on the text trying to change belief. Treasury is not domestic as in home. The by him phrase is a reference to free will as mentioned with the II Cor reference. The appeal is not to the Greek text for meaning.

There is no precendent in Scipture for the sabbath being the Lord's Day. Why would John a natural born Isrealite growing up with the sabbath and mentioning it in his other works suddenly switch to the Lord's Day? Is he trying to get by the government that banished him? That government can not possibly be that dense. In looking for another explanation only one is found - John is not referring to the sabbath but Sunday. There is a difference in saying in the day of the Lord and the Lord's Day. They are not the same in meaning as some would have us believe. The date Revelation is wirtten certianly is worthy of note because of the Lord"s Day phrase. Such has been shown to be common usage as early as 44 AD with the Didache.

One should read Weighed and Wanting by D L Moody to see what he is calling the sabbath starting at page 18. It can be found here - Weighed and Wanting by Dwight L. Moody - Free eBook

The material already cited is from The Ten Commandments by DL Moody on the Fundamental Baptist Institute site. Please read the whole section. We find this in the section for the 4th commandment -

A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath. Saturday is my day of rest, because I generally preach on Sunday, and I look forward to it as a boy does to a holiday. God knows what we need.

D L Moody is not presenting Saturday as the sabbath for the Christian. He clearly calls Sunday the sabbath. He does go on and try and apply at least some sabbath regulations to Sunday as principles to live by. The point is D L Moody is not referring to the 7th day sabbath.

It appears that MK 2:27 needs to be dealt with yet again.

23 And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn.
24 And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
25 And he said unto them, Have ye never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungred, he, and they that were with him?
26 How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the shewbread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him?
27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

What is going on here? Who is Jesus addressing? Why does Moses say say something different in Exodus 16, 20; Deut 5:3? Where is the OT reference saying the sabbath was given to mankind? Genesis 2 says nothing about mankind participating in the sabbath. Exodus 16, 20 says nothing about the Egyptians being required to keep the sabbath. How does the OT relate this to all mankind? It does not in any way shape or form do such anywhere.

We find these words at Charles Stanley's Handbook for Christian Living: Biblical Answers to Life's ... - Charles F. Stanley - Google Books page 37 -

We still have a moral obligation to observe the Sabbath.

The Christian Sabbath, through the New Covenant is the Lord's Day.

The Lord's Day is the first day of the week, Sunday, the day Christ finished His labor and rose from the dead.

We find this on a devotional page - The Fourth Commandment | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

Moreover, keeping the day of rest holy also showed one’s love for God. The rationale for Sabbath observance is the imitation of the Creator, who worked for six days and then rested on the seventh (Gen. 1:1–2:3). Fundamentally, we show our love for God in our desire and effort to be holy as He is holy; His holiness is a pattern for us to copy in our everyday lives (Eph. 5:1–2). The ancient Israelite was duty bound to structure his entire life as God structured His, with designated periods of work and rest.
The same principle of imitation applies to new covenant believers as well, although we no longer observe a seventh-day Sabbath. Instead, the first day of the week is set aside for Christian worship. There is no specific change in day mentioned in the New Testament, but the change was good and proper. Under the old covenant, the Sabbath celebrated God’s work of creation. We celebrate God’s creation under the new covenant as well, only now the focus is on the new creation in Christ (Gal. 6:15), which was established in His resurrection on the first day of the week. (bolded highligh is my addition for attention.)

It can clerarly be seen that none of the above theologians promote the keeping of the 7th day sabbath. They in fact refer to Sunday generally when using the word sabbath.

The Didache also goes by the title The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles as has been pointed out. The Apostles are known individuals. The fact that they are not cited in the complied work of the Didache is limited in value. That was not the custom then. So is the issue which one of the Apostles said what? The Didache was presented as an historical document for evidence. It is well known and accepted as a valid historic document in Christian theological circles of influence. It is not called the Scripture. And neither are any statements of the thoelogians brought into this discussion.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Notice the KJV says faith of Jesus. This would be in agreement with the Greek text that literally says faith Jesus. The NASB says faith in Jesus. Is there a difference? What would the faith of Jesus be? How about the statement of Jesus in Mat 5:17 - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Sounds like to me Jesus was sure of what He was upto and intended to do. That is called faith. Jesus said in Lk 24:44 this was accomplished by Him. This allows jots and tittles of the law to pass away as noted in Heb 7 -

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

We have no need to alter the law in any way, God did as He promised by Jeremiah. Jesus testified to this change being in effect as recorded in three (3) Gospels.

So what if the Scripture shows meetings of Jews and Gentiles on the Sabbath. There is not one single reference to Christians meeting on the Sabbath cited. If the Sabbath is so important to the Christian, why is there not a single reference post cross of Jesus meeting with the disciples or any of His followers? Every single incident that records a day is the first day of the week.

It has been asked for and asked for anyone to explain how the from...to in Isa 66:23 can possibly mean on. The passage is nothing more than a statement of time. It says nothing about on the the Sabbath. Verse 24 talks about some gross and gruesome activity also occuring during the period of time. Exactly what one wants to spend the Sabbath doing.

It is very interesting that Gal 4:30 was mentioned with the comment of denouncing it as the Old Covenant when the verse says to cast out the law (OC).

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Regarding 1John 2
4 He that saith, I know Him (Jesus), and keepeth not His (Jesus') commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth His (Jesus') word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him (Jesus).
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

...Verse 5 says we are in Jesus and not God the Father. Neither does verse 6 say we should walk as God the Father.

1John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God (The Father), when we love God (The Father) , and keep His (God the Father's) commandments (qualified with I John 3:23).
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His (God the Father's) commandments (qualified with I John 3:23): and his commandments are not grievous.

Thus the mention of the above quotes is not an admission that one obeys or is obligated to the law (Ten Commandments).

That last assertion does not follow from the texts you are quoting. In fact it is the opposite of them.

Christ affirms that He keeps His Father's commandments and then the Bible states we are to walk, even as he walked. - It just does not get any more obvious than that.

No wonder in teaching His disciples Jesus holds up the Ten commandments as "The Word of God" in Mark 7:13 to which they are accountable.


The word commandment(s) is a code word in the SDA language always meaning the Ten Commandments.
This is the classic "only SDAs notice the importance of God's Ten Commandments" type of assumption.

But since you bring it up - I will answer that idea conclusively. (All sources free online)

Well known evangelical, and Bible scholar R.C Sproul teaches this - regarding the Ten Commandments and the New Covenant

The Law of God

The Law of God | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org
Following the commandments of God is one mark of the true Christian
…
Historically, as exemplified in question and answer 92 of the Heidelberg Catechism, Reformed theology has viewed the Ten Commandments as the heart of God’s law. These ten elaborations of the fundamental principles of love of God and neighbor (Matt. 22:34–40) form the basic outline of what it means to please our Creator.
Coram Deo

In recent years, there has been a lot of controversy in the United States as to the placement of the Ten Commandments in public. In all of this rancor, however, we should never forget that the commandments should first be inscribed on our hearts. It is a good idea to memorize the Ten Commandments that we might know God and His will better, worship Him rightly, serve Him with gladness, and love Him more fully.
He does not say that "because he is SDA" as I am sure you and I both know.

Bible Commentary author - Matthew Henry - (Another not-SDA source)

[FONT=&quot]GENESIS 2 [/FONT]
Verses 1-3 After six days, God ceased from all works of creation. In miracles, he has overruled nature, but never changed its settled course, or added to it. God did not rest as one weary, but as one well pleased. Notice the beginning of the kingdom of grace, in the sanctification, or keeping holy, of the sabbath day. The solemn observing of one day in seven as a day of holy rest and holy work, to God's honour, is the duty of all to whom God has made known his holy sabbaths. At this time none of the human race were in being but our first parents. For them the sabbath was appointed; and clearly for all succeeding generations also.The Christian sabbath, which we observe, is a seventh day, and in it we celebrate the rest of God the Son, and the finishing the work of our redemption.
Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Bible


Catholic Catechism


2056 The word "
Decalogue" means literally "ten words."11 God revealed these "ten words" to his people on the holy mountain. They were written "with the finger of God,"12 unlike the other commandments written by Moses.13 They are pre-eminently the words of God. They are handed on to us in the books of Exodus 14 and Deuteronomy.15 Beginning with the Old Testament, the sacred books refer to the "ten words,"16 but it is in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ that their full meaning will be revealed.

2072
Since they express man's fundamental duties towards God and towards his neighbor, the Ten Commandments reveal, in their primordial content, grave obligations.They are fundamentally immutable, and they oblige always and everywhere. No one can dispense from them. the Ten Commandments are engraved by God in the human heart.

2063....
the words of the Decalogue remain likewise for us Christians. Far from being abolished, they have received amplification and development from the fact of the coming of the Lord in the flesh.26

==

D.L. Moody - another "non-SDA" source for Evengelicals.


THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

I honestly believe that
this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

The
Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai.
[FONT=&quot] How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

[/FONT]
The non-SDA non-Saturday Christian sources affirming the Ten Commandments for Christians today - are almost endless as we both know.


It is said that I Cor 16:1-2 does not show a cyclic (repeating occurance).
Correction. It is observed that 1Cor 16:1-2 DOES show a week-day-1 cycle. It is in fact the only one we find in the NT and it is a cycle of "laying aside" -- saving up at home a the start of the week. No mention at all of "bring an offering each week-day-1". Nor does the 1Cor 16 say it is a cycle of "meet for the Lord's Supper and worship and Gospel teaching each week-day-1" as some may have hoped. Not one mention of that in 1Cor 16.

And that my friends is truly "instructive" given that it is the only week-day-1 cycle we have authorized in the NT.

There is no precendent in Scipture for the sabbath being the Lord's Day.
Other than Christ's affirmation of it in Mark 2:28 "the Son of man is LORD of the Sabbath".

And in Isaiah 58 it is "the Holy day of the Lord".

Where do we find "The Son of man is Lord of week-day-1"?? Not one time.
How about "Week-day-1 is the Holy Day of the Lord"? Not one time.
How about "Week day 1 is what we call the Lord's Day"? Not once!

The material already cited is from The Ten Commandments by DL Moody on the Fundamental Baptist Institute site. Please read the whole section. We find this in the section for the 4th commandment -

A man ought to turn aside from his ordinary employment one day in seven. There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath. Saturday is my day of rest, because I generally preach on Sunday, and I look forward to it as a boy does to a holiday. God knows what we need.
D.L. Moody is another great example of an evangelical source affirming the continuation of the Ten Commandments - even the Sabbath Commandment in direct contradiction to every argument you have made.

Are you giving up on your own view?

We find these words at Charles Stanley's Handbook for Christian Living: Biblical Answers to Life's ... - Charles F. Stanley - Google Books page 37 -

We still have a moral obligation to observe the Sabbath.

The Christian Sabbath, through the New Covenant is the Lord's Day.

The Lord's Day is the first day of the week, Sunday, the day Christ finished His labor and rose from the dead.
You show an evangelical source affirming the continuation of the Ten Commandments AND even the Sabbath Commandment in direct contradiction to your own arguments so far. How is that helping?

And yes - that is a Sunday-keeping source that is contradicting your arguments. How are we supposed to miss this significance of that?

BugKiller said:
It can clearly be seen that none of the above theologians promote the keeping of the 7th day sabbath. They in fact refer to Sunday generally when using the word sabbath.
Indeed if I were debating their views - I would focus on the fact that Mark 7:7-13 does not allow us to bend/edit the Ten Commandments which they are affirming as still applicable to Christians.

But in debating your position which has been against both the Sabbath and the Ten Commandments - all one needs to do beyond quoting the texts - is to quote the same source you are quoting and your argument ends.

The Didache also goes by the title The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles as has been pointed out. The Apostles are known individuals.
It does - but no evidence at all that it existed in the first century or that it was written by any apostle or that it ever mentions "week day 1". Paul argued in 2Thess 2:1-2 that forgeries were a problem even in the first century. But this document is not even a forgery for it claims no title at all regarding the twelve Apostles. All we know is that many decades AFTER the time of Paul - someone started to call that document by a title as IF it had been known and written by the Apostles.

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Notice the KJV says faith of Jesus.
Yes that means that it is not "either or" - it is "both and".

Hebrews 7 only speaks of the end of the laws regarding the Priesthood just as Hebrews 10 declares the end of animal sacrifices.

So what if the Scripture shows meetings of Jews and Gentiles on the Sabbath.
You mean in Acts 13 and Acts 17 and Acts 18 where it is not simply "on a Sabbath" but it is "Sabbath AFTER Sabbath" cycles - with no mention at all to those accepting the message "Hey come meet again with us tomorrow on week-day-1". No not even once.

Regarding Isaiah 66
The passage is nothing more than a statement of time. It says nothing about on the the Sabbath.
Isaiah 66 makes it clear that we have TWO cycles for worship in the New Earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath" AND "From New moon to New Moon". It can not be diluted to "every day and every day" or "daily and daily".

in Christ,

Bob
 
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bugkiller

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The truncated quotes are a problem in establishing the truth.

Yes Jesus does say He kept His Father's commandments. Does John go agianst His Master (Jesus) and say Jesus did not and we are obligated to keep the Ten commandments? John quotes - If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Here Jesus tells us to not keep the Ten Commandments unless Jesus issued the Ten Commandments. Such a discussion would show disbelief in the Trinity. It would also call into question the integrety and credibility of Moses.

So what commandments did Jesus keep? Did Jesus murder, lie, steal or commit adultery? No. Would that be obedience to the law and the Ten Commandments? Jesus said He came to fulfil (meet all the requirements of) the law (Mat 5). Did Jesus keep something else not spoken about? Where could we find such evidence? Did Jesus say keep the Sabbath? Where?
Is John saying in I John 2:6 to keep the law (Ten commandments) contrary to the words of Jesus he quoted in John 15:10? Or is John saying to not practice a life style of sin? Is John credible?

How does keeping the Ten Commandments and the law square with - But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom 7 Paul clearly calls the Ten Commandments the law in this chapter.

How about the presentation in Galatians 3? In coming back to the theme of the debate why are Gentile belivers (Christians) not required to keep the sabbath in Acts 15?

There is a very powerful statement In Mark 7:6-16. It is unprofitable to discuss the passage in this brief debate. It could easily be taken to be accusatory and derail the intent of this post.

The material presented from other sources outside of the Bible have some very unfortunate wording to convey the truth concerning Sunday, the Sabbath and the law. It has been shown those sources also call Sunday the Sabbath. That fact can not be overlooked. So the choices are to discuss those total resources for context or to call them unreliable on the subject at hand.

There is no concession concerning the Sabbath by the quotes from quoted sources. Here are exclusive quotes to show the overlooked parts of presented quotes -

There are many whose occupation will not permit them to observe Sunday, but they should observe some other day as a Sabbath. DL Moody

The Lord's Day is the first day of the week, Sunday, the day Christ finished His labor and rose from the dead. Charles Stanley

Instead, the first day of the week is set aside for Christian worship. There is no specific change in day mentioned in the New Testament, but the change was good and proper. Under the old covenant, the Sabbath celebrated God’s work of creation. We celebrate God’s creation under the new covenant as well, only now the focus is on the new creation in Christ (Gal. 6:15), which was established in His resurrection on the first day of the week. RC Sproul

The proper citations have already been noted. The above quotes are highlights overlooked in previous posts. These above brief quotes show without doubt these Evangelical theologians are calling Sunday the Sabbath. Those above sources were quoted to support a requirement of keeping the 7th day Sabbath and yet they call Sunday the Sabbath.

It is recommended individuals do their own research concerning The Didache also called The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles in all circles of influence discussing it. It will also be found to be dated as early as 44 AD. It is not contested as being written by an Apostle. It is a collection of their teaching. I Corinthinas is dated around 55 AD. The Didache could have been well formed by then.

There is not a single verse anywhere calling the Sabbath the Lord's Day.

We have these facts concerning Isa 66:23 being about the Sabbath.

  • from one new moon to another is about time and includes all days between and thus daily
  • from one sabbath to another is about time and includes all days between and thus daily
  • The subject is worship
  • It is spedific when this worship occurs.
  • from one new moon to another allows for the weekly Sabbath to be included
  • the from to is about time and not the Sabbath
  • The from to is about time and not the new moon
  • The verse is all one sentence.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev 14

I have to admit to not understanding the coma prior to and the faith of Jesus. My take is without the coma and probably the common understanding. It is not at issue about keeping one or the other; it is about both. It is not faith in Jesus. The question is what are the commandments of God referring to in the verse.

Those commandments are - 23 And this is His (God the Father's) commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He (Jesus) gave us commandment. I John 3. Where are the Ten Commandments and especially the 4th? Jesus never says to keep the 7th day Sabbath. Jesus is only recorded as meeting with people on the first day of the week after the resurrection when a day is mentioned. That is the day after the Sabbath, Sunday. All other meetings do not specify a day. IOW the Sabbath is not mentioned during the 40 days after the resurrection.



It has been shown that:
  • the Sabbath is not mand made for mankind in Gen 2. MK 2:27 has been divorced from its context to contradict the Book of the Law
  • it has been shown the Sabbath was only given to Israel
  • it has been shown the Sabbath will cease Hosea 2:11 (same word used in Gen 2 translated rested)
  • it can not be found as a command to observe in the NT
  • the Gentile Christians were not required to observe the Sabbath Acts 15
  • the Sabbath is at best optional per Rom 14 and Col 2
  • the commandments John refers to are those of Jesus and not found in the OT - John 15:10, I John 3:23
  • quoted Evangelicals call Sunday the Sabbath
  • Isa 66:23 clearly deals with time and not the Sabbath
  • there are two different covenants which differ Jer 31:31-34
  • the new covenant is not based on law Heb 8:6
  • Worshipping on Sunday has been shown to be the practice of Christians from mid first century
Time for famous last words.


The only goal I missed was showing no one keeps the Sabbath these days. Ran out of space. Briefly all people in first world countries do business on the sabbath at least on account. This requires others to work directly for them and thus within their gates. Most all people in first world countries use a vehicle (modern beast of burden animal) to arrive at worship services. Both violate the stone tablet version (Ex 20) of the 4th commandment. Thus all violate the Ten Commandments if they are obligated to keep.
Regretably it is impossible to discuss obligation to the Sabbath without discussing the law. It has been shown no one in Jesus Christ is so obligated. In fact people are instructed to choose between the law and salvation - Gal 5:4. And we are also instructed as Christians to throw out the law in Gal 4:30. This is not promoting a life style of sin nor is it permission to sin.

I have enjoyed my time spent here debating BobRyan.

My hope is that people will take the time to think about my questions and statements and not merely respond to selected words. I hope the presentation and all its implications will be given consideration.

I am interested in sincere questions, criticisms and praises of this debate from both sides on all issues.

Given the volume of material on the subject I am sure many things are left out as unsaid. My sincere apologies.

Let each make up their own mind and do not judge another man's servant.

May God richly bless you all,

bugkiller
 
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