Russian Tanks and Armored Vehicles Amassing on Ukrainian border

Nithavela

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Map of the independent Ukraine in 1654 (against the backdrop of the contemporary Ukraine)

Cossack Hetmanate - Wikipedia
Location_of_Cossack_Hetmanate.png
So?
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Ukraine is not Russian territory. NATO has never threatened to invade Russia.

What is NATO doing in the Ukraine?

The US is not NATO. The US was very open about its condemnation of the old Ukrainian government.

NATO is US operation. NATO's raison d'etre is maintaining US hegemony in Europe. Always has been.

The original issue was about closeness between Ukraine and the EU. The EU is *also* not NATO.

The majority of EU members are also NATO members, so trade with the EU is relevant to NATO.

If you're going to cast about accusations of "coup" at least pick an org that might stage a coup. I suggest the CIA.

The CIA is an agency of the US, which is the power behind NATO. If I had enough evidence to be that specific, I would.

Since the "coup" Russia has:

* sent non-uniformed troops into sovereign Ukrainian territory (Crimea).
* Occupied sovereign Ukrainian territory (Crimea).
* Illegally annexed sovereign Ukrainian territory (Crimea).

The coup overthrew the legitimate government of the Ukraine and installed a US puppet regime, hence there is no "sovereign Ukranian territory" because the Ukraine is not sovereign.

That, and the annexation of the Crimea was in scrupulous accordance with international law. It was a result of the vote of Crimea's regional parliament and ratified by popular referendum. Furthermore, it was accomplished bloodlessly - in fact the annexation doubtless saved Crimea from the carnage the Kiev regime wrought in Donbass.

* Invaded other sovereign Ukrainian territory (Donbass).
* Shot down a passenger plane over sovereign Ukrainian territory.
* Repeatedly mounted cyber attacks against Ukraine.
* and continues to engage in military operations in sovereign Ukrainian territory (Donbass).

There is no evidence that Russia has sent troops into Donbass.

Russia can pack up and go back to their own country.

The areas near the border the Russia has sent troops to, that is there country.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Hans Blaster

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NATO is US operation. NATO's raison d'etre is maintaining US hegemony in Europe. Always has been.

NATO is an organization (an alliance) created by a treaty (The "O" and "T" in NATO.) The US is the largest and strongest power in NATO, but they do not run it. The current Secretary General of NATO is a Norwegian.

The first overseas military operation of NATO was in Serbia. NATO was not involved in any of the Cold War US "interventions". Not in Vietnam, not in Kuwait, not in Korea (Korea was technically a UN operation as the USSR boycotted the authorization vote in the Security Council and the China vote was controlled by Taiwan, and not the PRC.)

The rest of you post isn't worth commenting on.

до свидания
 
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Trogdor the Burninator

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The coup overthrew the legitimate government of the Ukraine and installed a US puppet regime, hence there is no "sovereign Ukranian territory" because the Ukraine is not sovereign.

Well, that's about as blatant pro-Putin propaganda as we're likely to see on this forum.
 
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Hvizsgyak

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Out of curiosity, what made you leave the Republican Party?

I personally know one person who is a former Republican. He was brought up as a conservative Catholic, but he later went to a liberal college and started to adopt different ways of thinking, later becoming a left-wing atheist.

I'm curious, would you have considered Constantine, Charles Martel or Charlemagne great, strong leaders.

I too have left both the Republican Party and the Democratic Party. Republicans do hardly anything to make our society better for all. And the Democrats who have the opportunity to make peoples' lives better, choose to support many controversial lifestyles and values for their own power hungry needs.

I joke with my friends that our country needs to go back to a good king (or queen). Someone who inspires and leads people to want to make their country better. Someone who is wise, caring but strong to get things done.

Our democracy is falling apart because people are not sharing ideas and listening to one another. We are going through another Tower of Babel scenario. We are so different from one another that when we speak to each other, we are not listening to the other person. It's like we were speaking another language to each other. I read alot of these posts in this forum. Some person will make a great statement and another person will respond as if they totally didn't understand what the first person said.

A great leader can make people understand one another and work toward good solutions for all people to enjoy.
 
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essentialsaltes

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Ukraine says Russia has moved 80,000 troops to border and Crimea, and Putin won't talk

Tension between the neighbors has grown steadily for several weeks, with intensified skirmishes in eastern Ukraine — a region that has been mired in conflict since Russia first backed Ukrainian separatists there seven years ago. Putin has sent thousands of forcestoward the Ukrainian border recently, raising concerns among politicians in the United States and European Union.

[Ukrainian spokesperson] Mendel said Russia had massed more than 40,000 troops on Ukraine's eastern border, and more than 40,000 in Crimea, the region that Putin unilaterally annexed away from Ukraine and declared Russian in 2014.

German Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer on Monday called on Moscow to declare its intentions in the region, saying that if Putin's government "has nothing to hide, it could easily explain why troops are being moved."

Last week, Putin accused Ukraine of "dangerous provocative actions" in Ukraine's eastern Donbas region. Relations between Kyiv and Moscow have worsened since Putin first backed the separatists in the area and seized Crimea in 2014. The Kremlin insists its support for the separatists is limited to political and humanitarian backing, but the West has long accused Putin of sending military forces and hardware.

I understand the US is sending naval forces to the Black Sea.
I understand Russian propaganda is talking about the need to 'deNazify' Ukraine.
 
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Andrewn

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he Kremlin insists its support for the separatists is limited to political and humanitarian backing, but the West has long accused Putin of sending military forces and hardware. I understand the US is sending naval forces to the Black Sea.
NATO should cool down the rhetoric. Ukraine, as we know it today, has never existed as an independent country (post #80). The current borders are administrative borders of the State of Ukraine within the Russian Empire. After the Partitions of Poland in 1772, 1793 and 1795, the extreme west of Ukraine fell under the control of the Austrians, with the rest becoming a part of the Russian Empire. Most of Ukraine fell to the Russian Empire under the reign of Catherine the Great; in 1793 right-bank Ukraine was annexed by Russia in the Second Partition of Poland.[40] While Ukraine has the right to self-determination, the border dispute needs to be addressed in a diplomatic venue. But a show of force may be necessary to achieve a political solution.

History of Ukraine - Wikipedia
 
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Landon Caeli

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Ukraine says Russia has moved 80,000 troops to border and Crimea, and Putin won't talk

Tension between the neighbors has grown steadily for several weeks, with intensified skirmishes in eastern Ukraine — a region that has been mired in conflict since Russia first backed Ukrainian separatists there seven years ago. Putin has sent thousands of forcestoward the Ukrainian border recently, raising concerns among politicians in the United States and European Union.

[Ukrainian spokesperson] Mendel said Russia had massed more than 40,000 troops on Ukraine's eastern border, and more than 40,000 in Crimea, the region that Putin unilaterally annexed away from Ukraine and declared Russian in 2014.

German Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer on Monday called on Moscow to declare its intentions in the region, saying that if Putin's government "has nothing to hide, it could easily explain why troops are being moved."

Last week, Putin accused Ukraine of "dangerous provocative actions" in Ukraine's eastern Donbas region. Relations between Kyiv and Moscow have worsened since Putin first backed the separatists in the area and seized Crimea in 2014. The Kremlin insists its support for the separatists is limited to political and humanitarian backing, but the West has long accused Putin of sending military forces and hardware.

I understand the US is sending naval forces to the Black Sea.
I understand Russian propaganda is talking about the need to 'deNazify' Ukraine.

I think I might have to side with Russia on this. German influence is worse for Ukraine than Russian influence.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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[Ukrainian spokesperson] Mendel said Russia had massed more than 40,000 troops on Ukraine's eastern border, and more than 40,000 in Crimea, the region that Putin unilaterally annexed away from Ukraine and declared Russian in 2014.

German Defense Minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer on Monday called on Moscow to declare its intentions in the region, saying that if Putin's government "has nothing to hide, it could easily explain why troops are being moved."

Note the arrogant assumption that Russia owes them an explanation as to why they’re moving troops in their own territory. As if it didn’t even occur to them that it might be classified...
 
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essentialsaltes

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Note the arrogant assumption that Russia owes them an explanation as to why they’re moving troops in their own territory. As if it didn’t even occur to them that it might be classified...

Who are you, Neville Chamberlain? Russia has already annexed the Sudetenland/Crimea.
 
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wing2000

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Note the arrogant assumption that Russia owes them an explanation as to why they’re moving troops in their own territory. As if it didn’t even occur to them that it might be classified...

....if say the US deployed 80k combat troops to the Ukraine/Russian border, I'm willing to bet Mr Putin would be demanding an explanation of intent. That's simply what countries do when militaries are deployed in an irregular, threatening manner.
 
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essentialsaltes

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I understand the US is sending naval forces to the Black Sea.

Russia calls U.S. an adversary, warns its warships to avoid Crimea
Russia on Tuesday called the United States an adversary and told U.S. warships to stay well away from Crimea “for their own good”

The Pentagon has declined to discuss the ships’ deployment, saying only that the U.S. military routinely sends vessels to the region.


Note the arrogant assumption that the US owes them an explanation as to why they’re moving ships in waters they have every right to be in.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Who are you, Neville Chamberlain? Russia has already annexed the Sudetenland/Crimea.

Ah, to live in the world of the neocon, where it's always 1938 and anyone who stands in the way of US hegemony is Hitler.

....if say the US deployed 80k combat troops to the Ukraine/Russian border, I'm willing to bet Mr Putin would be demanding an explanation of intent.

I think in that case Putin would understand the intent quite well. Not so hypothetical either, considering that the US-backed puppet regime in Kiev has sent troops to Donbass, and slaughtered thousands of innocent people there.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I'm not sure why Russia thinks Ukraine might be something worth fighting for, if that's what they're up to. Isn't their country large enough..? Why not work on improving what they already have rather than this preoccupation with expansion?

......seriously?

Is that a real question?

China is grabbing all resources it can....both nearby and in Africa. Russia is going to start doing the same.

I understand that half of this nation is trying to figure out the best way to share all we have with people who have less.

Those people shouldn't be running the nation.

Resources are finite. Whether or not you approve of empire building makes no difference to that fact.

We are inherently in competition for those resources.
 
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things will be difficult no matter what happens. even if we gave everyone a UBI it would only lead to more replication of humans, more drainage of resources. probably the easiest solution to help the world in general is for the elites to find ways to get people to cull themselves down to a more manageable number. people will blindly go to slaughter because of how unaware of reality they are and because of how hard and challenging a world this is to exist in.
 
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Landon Caeli

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......seriously?

Is that a real question?

China is grabbing all resources it can....both nearby and in Africa. Russia is going to start doing the same.

I understand that half of this nation is trying to figure out the best way to share all we have with people who have less.

Those people shouldn't be running the nation.

Resources are finite. Whether or not you approve of empire building makes no difference to that fact.

We are inherently in competition for those resources.

What is your worldview, in regards to your country and politics, Ana? What are your hopes?

I only ask, because I'm genuinely curious, and I would never critique it.
 
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Ana the Ist

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What is your worldview, in regards to your country and politics, Ana? What are your hopes?

I only ask, because I'm genuinely curious, and I would never critique it.

Generally speaking? Dim.

There's things beyond our control, right? A petroleum based, carbon fueled century of progress that staved off what would have been an increasingly desperate fight for farmland.

This has allowed us to go from 2 billion people to 8 billion....but not without consequences. Mass carbon fueled societies have altered the environment. Generally speaking, increasingly complex systems required increasingly complex solutions for their problems.

Economies of scale are increasingly automated and require high intelligence and ability which increasingly leaves out a larger section of mankind. This puts a larger number of people in an increasingly desperate situation that they don't really understand the problems of....nor do they understand the solutions to. As a result, blaming, scapegoating, finger pointing, and groupthink provide both easy answers (though no solutions) and emotional satisfaction.

So....perhaps much in the way that WW1 toppled monarchy and traditional empires built upon concepts of nobility....

The rapid onset of large scale problems will be best handled by those nations that no longer argue internally about the best way to portion out what little they have. Instead, single party ruling elites will be able to debate internally while using propaganda and the familiar methods of mass manipulation to keep the masses aimed outward and gobble up whatever is left before the party is over entirely.

Democracies like ours can't both constantly fight internally while hoping to contend with other nations. It's the old "a house divided against itself" adage.

I don't really have hopes for the way it's going to go. That's a guess based on the way I see it going. The situation exists because of solutions created for problems that were created by the situation before.

There's no solutions on the table for some of these problems. In many ways, we're losing our ability to understand and solve problems in favor of laying blame.

There's the inherent problem in a elected official that probably was more theoretical a long time ago. They have to get elected. To do anything of use.....they have to first get elected. Well what if campaigns were so long and expensive they spent more time concerning themselves with getting elected than solving problems? What would that scenario look like? A lot of political posturing? A lot of blaming the other side with few actual solutions?

I'm not sure what to tell you regarding my country and politics because I see very little that appears smart to me from either side. I don't really hear anyone say much I agree with. I think that generally speaking, the public is dissatisfied with the politicians but they don't understand why....and they imagine the solution is their side gaining total control.
 
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Landon Caeli

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Generally speaking? Dim.

There's things beyond our control, right? A petroleum based, carbon fueled century of progress that staved off what would have been an increasingly desperate fight for farmland.

This has allowed us to go from 2 billion people to 8 billion....but not without consequences. Mass carbon fueled societies have altered the environment. Generally speaking, increasingly complex systems required increasingly complex solutions for their problems.

Economies of scale are increasingly automated and require high intelligence and ability which increasingly leaves out a larger section of mankind. This puts a larger number of people in an increasingly desperate situation that they don't really understand the problems of....nor do they understand the solutions to. As a result, blaming, scapegoating, finger pointing, and groupthink provide both easy answers (though no solutions) and emotional satisfaction.

So....perhaps much in the way that WW1 toppled monarchy and traditional empires built upon concepts of nobility....

The rapid onset of large scale problems will be best handled by those nations that no longer argue internally about the best way to portion out what little they have. Instead, single party ruling elites will be able to debate internally while using propaganda and the familiar methods of mass manipulation to keep the masses aimed outward and gobble up whatever is left before the party is over entirely.

Democracies like ours can't both constantly fight internally while hoping to contend with other nations. It's the old "a house divided against itself" adage.

I don't really have hopes for the way it's going to go. That's a guess based on the way I see it going. The situation exists because of solutions created for problems that were created by the situation before.

There's no solutions on the table for some of these problems. In many ways, we're losing our ability to understand and solve problems in favor of laying blame.

There's the inherent problem in a elected official that probably was more theoretical a long time ago. They have to get elected. To do anything of use.....they have to first get elected. Well what if campaigns were so long and expensive they spent more time concerning themselves with getting elected than solving problems? What would that scenario look like? A lot of political posturing? A lot of blaming the other side with few actual solutions?

I'm not sure what to tell you regarding my country and politics because I see very little that appears smart to me from either side. I don't really hear anyone say much I agree with. I think that generally speaking, the public is dissatisfied with the politicians but they don't understand why....and they imagine the solution is their side gaining total control.

I wish you would spend more time in political discussions, though I understand your efforts in regards to culture have been worthwhile and interesting. I like reading your posts. I always learn something.
 
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Landon Caeli

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Generally speaking, increasingly complex systems required increasingly complex solutions for their problems.

Economies of scale are increasingly automated and require high intelligence and ability which increasingly leaves out a larger section of mankind. This puts a larger number of people in an increasingly desperate situation that they don't really understand the problems of....nor do they understand the solutions to. As a result, blaming, scapegoating, finger pointing, and groupthink provide both easy answers (though no solutions) and emotional satisfaction.

So....perhaps much in the way that WW1 toppled monarchy and traditional empires built upon concepts of nobility....

The rapid onset of large scale problems will be best handled by those nations that no longer argue internally about the best way to portion out what little they have. Instead, single party ruling elites will be able to debate internally while using propaganda and the familiar methods of mass manipulation to keep the masses aimed outward and gobble up whatever is left before the party is over entirely.

Democracies like ours can't both constantly fight internally while hoping to contend with other nations. It's the old "a house divided against itself" adage.

Do you think it's possible that Russia is built for the long-haul, and will outsurvive the United States..?

...I do. It's why I might not necessarily reject Russia taking parts of Ukraine. I see the US as a country that lives fast and dies fast. I see much of the West following in this trend.

Russia is much wiser than that though, and I think this intimidates a lot of Westerners.
 
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