Russian Orthodox Leader Condemns Gay Marriages, Warns Of Apocalypse

[jazzflower92]

the same could be said for America?
lots of unjust laws, I have not heard many church leaders speak out against the government/society

I do agree with you that Putin is doing a lot of evil things

I am not educated enough to know if the Russian Orthodox Church is preaching the Gospel to those who are doing evil
I would like to hope that they are

either way, God will judge them

the laws in the OP do not really bother me, they are aimed at protecting children from immoral teachings

as a society, the US has given up on the idea of Christian Morals as a norm

the Orthodox Church in Russia should support the government when it does good things and call out the government when it does bad things

Yeah, but some draconian laws have been made in the name of morality but strip away people's freedoms. I mean they will throw people in jail for putting out gay material or displaying open sexuality. That kind of thing is a really extreme thing to do. Take personal responsibility and just avoid those things shoved into your face. Or maybe have regulations on what is displayed towards children. I don't think gay pride parades should be banned but taken to a PG level. I don't want the state help promote morals that is supposed to be the church's.

 

[katherine2001]

Ernst's Economy for you: Russian ban against US adoption has terrible blowback for Russian orphans and children-in-need

This is why its so serious.

Jazzflower, many Russian children have been mistreated or when the children have serious problems (the children have been in orphanages--they'd better be ready to have a troubled child), they want to return them as you would take defective merchandise to a store when it doesn't work. Unfortunately, too many expect perfect children to be perfect and when (surprise, surprise) when they don't turn out to be perfect, they want to return them as I said above. I don't blame the Russians one bit for wanting to stop adoptions by Americans.

 

[Thekla]

Yeah, but some draconian laws have been made in the name of morality but strip away people's freedoms. I mean they will throw people in jail for putting out gay material or displaying open sexuality. That kind of thing is a really extreme thing to do. Take personal responsibility and just avoid those things shoved into your face. Or maybe have regulations on what is displayed towards children. I don't think gay pride parades should be banned but taken to a PG level. I don't want the state help promote morals that is supposed to be the church's.

Re: your first recent post:

No, the Church (including the Russian Orthodox) has not forgotten to love the sinner.

As for the culture of Russia, how does one categorically know what is said to Putin, or not said, in private ? A much different culture.

As for the issue you raise in the second, again this is an understanding typical to our culture, but shouldn't be expected of other cultures.

(Additionally, why shouldn't a culture expect the society to be "child friendly" ? This notion has been somewhat erased in our society - more "adult' themed programing used to be aired past 9pm though this is now not the case. )

 

[jazzflower92]

Jazzflower, many Russian children have been mistreated or when the children have serious problems (the children have been in orphanages--they'd better be ready to have a troubled child), they want to return them as you would take defective merchandise to a store when it doesn't work. Unfortunately, too many expect perfect children to be perfect and when (surprise, surprise) when they don't turn out to be perfect, they want to return them as I said above. I don't blame the Russians one bit for wanting to stop adoptions by Americans.

But those are special cases and often times a lot of Russian orphans have been found to have loving families. People are giving power to fear and are playing into dangerous stereotypes that will further hurt orphans.

Nothing is fully family friendly at heart so as a responsible adult it should be to the parent to keep a child on the right track. Keeping a child sheltered too much can stunt their growth where they won't learn anything. I do agree there some issues that don't need to be shoved at our kids at such a young age but we can't just resort to extreme government measures that throw people in jail.

 

[Thekla]

But those are special cases and often times a lot of Russian orphans have been found to have loving families. People are giving power to fear and are playing into dangerous stereotypes that will further hurt orphans.

Or a number of overt and behind-the-scenes US actions as well as the US economic advisers actions following the fall of the USSR which had the effect of plunging most Russians into poverty (lowering the life-expectancy by about a decade among other affects including underfunding of orphanages, child abandonment because of poverty) betrayed an overarching ethos that could not be ignored.

Nothing is fully family friendly at heart so as a responsible adult it should be to the parent to keep a child on the right track. Keeping a child sheltered too much can stunt their growth where they won't learn anything. I do agree there some issues that don't need to be shoved at our kids at such a young age but we can't just resort to extreme government measures that throw people in jail.

Just curious: are you a parent ?

As for the "we", again you speak from a cultural/societal ground that is USAmerican; it would behoove this country to recognize the existence of cultures other than our own, and to even become familiar with other ways of thinking and organizing (and such would likely benefit our foreign policy ... and track record of this for the better).

 

[katherine2001]

jazzflower, the Russians have the right to set up their adoption laws the way they want to, just as the US does. How would you like it if American children were being adopted by foreigners and taken out of the countr? The fact is that Russian children being mistreated or returned to the orphanage happens often enough that Russia thinks it is a problem. Russia is not the US and we need to stop expecting other countries to be like ours. We have some very serious problems of our own and are hardly perfect. We allow millions of unborn children to be murdered every year. As for the Church coming out against same-sex marriage and being against laws that would allow them, the Scriptures are quite clear about it, and it is the Church's job to stand up for what Christianity teaches

 

[jazzflower92]

jazzflower, the Russians have the right to set up their adoption laws the way they want to, just as the US does. How would you like it if American children were being adopted by foreigners and taken out of the countr? The fact is that Russian children being mistreated or returned to the orphanage happens often enough that Russia thinks it is a problem. Russia is not the US and we need to stop expecting other countries to be like ours. We have some very serious problems of our own and are hardly perfect. We allow millions of unborn children to be murdered every year. As for the Church coming out against same-sex marriage and being against laws that would allow them, the Scriptures are quite clear about it, and it is the Church's job to stand up for what Christianity teaches

Its also to remember we should stand for Scripture and not cherry-pick the ones we like the most or emphasize. I also support any foreigner adopting an American child as long as they are loved. Russian has an abortion problem as well and other troubling things as well. I am not expecting another country to be like us I am expecting another country to not cross the line in the name of false piousness while looking away from the violence that people are suffering.

 

[Thekla]

Its also to remember we should stand for Scripture and not cherry-pick the ones we like the most or emphasize. I also support any foreigner adopting an American child as long as they are loved. Russian has an abortion problem as well and other troubling things as well. I am not expecting another country to be like us I am expecting another country to not cross the line in the name of false piousness while looking away from the violence that people are suffering.

Russia emerged recently from what, among the Orthodox, is known as the "Communist yoke"; Atheism was taught and promoted in the schools from the earliest grades.

Would it be too much to ask to let Russia heal from this wound on her own time and in her own way ?

Or is the USA the only way ?

 

[jazzflower92]

Russia emerged recently from what, among the Orthodox, is known as the "Communist yoke"; Atheism was taught and promoted in the schools from the earliest grades.

Would it be too much to ask to let Russia heal from this wound on her own time and in her own way ?

Or is the USA the only way ?

I want Russia to heal from that time but it doesn't need to recover by going a dark path with Putin running things. I believe the church has been blinded to forgetting what they are supposed to be a hospital for sinners and not a place for the righteous. When people become self righteous they forget to view the unsaved as people who are in need of help. False piousness can wreck a nation as well.

Last Word: Search Results

Gays treated horribly in Russia, what you can do about it to stop it - Milwaukee Progressive | Examiner.com

Andy Cohen Turns Down Miss Universe Hosting Gig in Russia, Is Concerned for His Safety | E! Online

Russia, Gays, and Picking the Right Fight - Reason.com

 

[Rhamiel]

Yeah, but some draconian laws have been made in the name of morality but strip away people's freedoms. I mean they will throw people in jail for putting out gay material or displaying open sexuality. That kind of thing is a really extreme thing to do. Take personal responsibility and just avoid those things shoved into your face. Or maybe have regulations on what is displayed towards children. I don't think gay pride parades should be banned but taken to a PG level. I don't want the state help promote morals that is supposed to be the church's.

I am not sure that such "freedoms" should be protected

the State always supports a morality
when they set up more taxes on the rich, we say that they should pay their "fair share"
all ideas of fairness come from morality
we have animal cruelty laws, why? no human is being harmed? because we think it is the moral thing to have.

so why not have laws on public displays of homosexuality?

 

[jazzflower92]

I am not sure that such "freedoms" should be protected

the State always supports a morality
when they set up more taxes on the rich, we say that they should pay their "fair share"
all ideas of fairness come from morality
we have animal cruelty laws, why? no human is being harmed? because we think it is the moral thing to have.

so why not have laws on public displays of homosexuality?

Because it would be like throwing people in jail for premarital sex or adultery. Most of these sodomy laws can be traced to a holier than thou attitude that can cause people to see gays as those to smite on target. Unfortunately some clergy have completely resort to violence in some cases.

The Orthodox Church’s role in Russia’s anti-gay laws | National Catholic Reporter

Priests lead Orthodox anti-gays in violent Tbilisi clashes with rights activists, police (PHOTOS, VIDEO) — RT News

Orthodox Priest Encourages Violence Against Pride Marchers | Religion Dispatches

Orthodox priests join thousands of protesters in Georgia's capital and derail gay pride rally

Russian Orthodox Priests Want to Take Back Alaska and Save Its Nongays | VICE United States

 

[GoingByzantine]

I want Russia to heal from that time but it doesn't need to recover by going a dark path with Putin running things. I believe the church has been blinded to forgetting what they are supposed to be a hospital for sinners and not a place for the righteous. When people become self righteous they forget to view the unsaved as people who are in need of help. False piousness can wreck a nation as well.

I have yet to see any evidence that Patriarch Kirill has become "self righteous" and has turned away Gay People. The fact that he does not support Gay Marriage, does not mean that the Russian Orthodox Church is not trying to "save" Gay people.

 

[Thekla]

I want Russia to heal from that time but it doesn't need to recover by going a dark path with Putin running things. I believe the church has been blinded to forgetting what they are supposed to be a hospital for sinners and not a place for the righteous. When people become self righteous they forget to view the unsaved as people who are in need of help. False piousness can wreck a nation as well.

Last Word: Search Results

Gays treated horribly in Russia, what you can do about it to stop it - Milwaukee Progressive | Examiner.com

Andy Cohen Turns Down Miss Universe Hosting Gig in Russia, Is Concerned for His Safety | E! Online

Russia, Gays, and Picking the Right Fight - Reason.com

How intimately and experientially do you know the Russian Orthodox Church in Russia to make such a claim ?

And how intimately do you know the conversations between Putin and the heirarchy of the Orthodox there ?

Do you expect Russia to behave as the US ?

For those of us who live in the US, there are ample problems right here - including poverty, homelessness, untreated illness to name a few. Wouldn't piety demand that we consider our own culture and those here before casting stones re: a culture we know little about, with a history so vastly different from our own ?

We should be concerned about the welfare of ALL people, including the spiritual health. And the call to heal should be directed at ourself first.

 

[Erose]

Yeah, but some draconian laws have been made in the name of morality but strip away people's freedoms. I mean they will throw people in jail for putting out gay material or displaying open sexuality. That kind of thing is a really extreme thing to do. Take personal responsibility and just avoid those things shoved into your face. Or maybe have regulations on what is displayed towards children. I don't think gay pride parades should be banned but taken to a PG level. I don't want the state help promote morals that is supposed to be the church's.

There is a few things we should remember here.

1) Russia, has already experimented with the amoral society that our country now seems to want to go to, and it failed in Russia. It learned the hard way that ethics is necessary for sustaining a society, so in a sense for Russia the pendulum is swinging opposite of the US and other Western Countries.

2) Because of this amorality experiment in Russia, they are still having a whole slew of problems that they are trying to deal with. The main concern that has been expressed in the recent past in Russia is the significant loss of the population. They loosing their population to the point that the Russian government has announced as a legitimate crisis. Their pregnant women are more prone to abort than to carry a child to term. In fact Russia, along with the rest of the former USSR countries have the highest abortion rates in the world. The government is actually paying and/or giving prizes to couples willing to bear and raise children.

This may be one factor involved in their decision to cease the foreign adoption practices, but I am not sure.

Putin in his 19th State of the Union emphasized the need to rebuild the population and also the moral framework for Russia for it to become a vibrant nation. It sounds like he is in fact trying to do just that.

Personally I don't like Putin, so please don't look at this as an apologetic for him. I am just trying to put it in perspective on what his agenda is. Putin IMO is untrustworthy, but extremely intelligent man. Much more intelligent than our current President, and that kinda makes me nervous.

 

[jazzflower92]

There is a few things we should remember here.

1) Russia, has already experimented with the amoral society that our country now seems to want to go to, and it failed in Russia. It learned the hard way that ethics is necessary for sustaining a society, so in a sense for Russia the pendulum is swinging opposite of the US and other Western Countries.

2) Because of this amorality experiment in Russia, they are still having a whole slew of problems that they are trying to deal with. The main concern that has been expressed in the recent past in Russia is the significant loss of the population. They loosing their population to the point that the Russian government has announced as a legitimate crisis. Their pregnant women are more prone to abort than to carry a child to term. In fact Russia, along with the rest of the former USSR countries have the highest abortion rates in the world. The government is actually paying and/or giving prizes to couples willing to bear and raise children.

This may be one factor involved in their decision to cease the foreign adoption practices, but I am not sure.

Putin in his 19th State of the Union emphasized the need to rebuild the population and also the moral framework for Russia for it to become a vibrant nation. It sounds like he is in fact trying to do just that.

Putin is a politician and him getting close with the Church could turn bad really fast for everyone soon enough. I am just worried for the safety of gay people who might be persecuted under him. I might not agree with their lifestyle I still feel that they are being set up as scrape goats.

 

[Rhamiel]

I hope the Bishops are disciplining the priests who led others to violence
this has me most saddened

I am not, in theory, against laws that punish adultery
though premarital sex would be a different issue
relationships between men and women are natural, and sins done in private are a private matter

I am also against sodomy laws
but laws against public displays, well that is a different matter

 

[Thekla]

Because it would be like throwing people in jail for premarital sex or adultery. Most of these sodomy laws can be traced to a holier than thou attitude that can cause people to see gays as those to smite on target. Unfortunately some clergy have completely resort to violence in some cases.

The Orthodox Church’s role in Russia’s anti-gay laws | National Catholic Reporter

Priests lead Orthodox anti-gays in violent Tbilisi clashes with rights activists, police (PHOTOS, VIDEO) — RT News

Orthodox Priest Encourages Violence Against Pride Marchers | Religion Dispatches

Orthodox priests join thousands of protesters in Georgia's capital and derail gay pride rally

Russian Orthodox Priests Want to Take Back Alaska and Save Its Nongays | VICE United States

Violence is wrong, and fortunately not all priests participate nor encourage violence.

As for the origin of anti-sodomy laws, they cluster with a number of laws on sexual behavior.

(Former Soviet Bloc countries in general are wrestling with issues that have rapidly come to the fore with the collapse of the USSR; these countries have a great deal to deal with 'of a sudden', and it is little wonder that such turmoil erupts. There is for some a sense that the 'west' presents a culture of lawlessness - from a mere slap on the wrist for major banks engaged in money laundering for the Mexican drug cartels thus tacitly supporting the cartel's culture of slaughter, to the pending decriminalization of incest in a number of western European countries.)

Given the ongoing mistreatment of the native populations of Alaska since its purchase by the US, perhaps this idea is not so "off" and might be added to your list for advocacy projects.

 

[Rev Randy]

At least this thread gives Rome a break for a moment. If I were of the RCC I think I'd be chuckling. But I'm not so I'm not.
I pray Putin gets close to the Church. Real close. Close enough for a new creation to emerge.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by jazzflower92

I want Russia to heal from that time but it doesn't need to recover by going a dark path with Putin running things. I believe the church has been blinded to forgetting what they are supposed to be a hospital for sinners and not a place for the righteous. When people become self righteous they forget to view the unsaved as people who are in need of help. False piousness can wreck a nation as well.
​

I have yet to see any evidence that Patriarch Kirill has become "self righteous" and has turned away Gay People.
The fact that he does not support Gay Marriage, does not mean that the Russian Orthodox Church is not trying to "save" Gay people.

From this article, even the religion of Judaism appears to be turning more liberal toward Jewish homosexuals, which I find rather interesting

Homosexuality in Judaism and Jewish Thought - My Jewish Learning

Nonetheless, the traditional Jewish position on homosexuality is still difficult for many liberal-minded Jews, and the liberal denominations have debated the extent to which gays and lesbians can be fully integrated into religious communities.

The first and least controversial step taken by the Conservative, Reconstructionist, and Reform movements was to endorse civil equality for gays and lesbians. The CCAR, the Reform movement's rabbinical council, took an early and active role in fighting for gay rights. In 1977 it drafted a call to decriminalize homosexual sex and to end all discrimination based on sexual orientation.


.......

 

[Thekla]

At least this thread gives Rome a break for a moment. If I were of the RCC I think I'd be chuckling. But I'm not so I'm not.
I pray Putin gets close to the Church. Real close. Close enough for a new creation to emerge.